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"Because the government has barred Lavabit from disclosing the nature of its demands, we still don't know what information the government is seeking, or why it'

• brador 13y ago
  For anyone interested, that's these guys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo
  • barking 13y ago
    I think that it's in the 'The Gulag Archipelago' where Solzhenitsyn says that by contrast with the NKVD/KGB, the gestapo look like gentlemen.
    • ash 13y ago
      Solzhenitsyn may be right. But he was biased, having been prosecuted by NKVD.
• marvin 13y ago
  He hasn't actually been arrested yet for not cooperating with a secret court order. This case has much higher profile than the CEO who got in trouble a while ago. Lots of international newspapers have written stories about Lavabit after the shutdown. I think if Levison was arreted, it would be a turning point in the political implications of this case. From the slow response, it seems like the authorities are worried about doing this. And rightfully so.
  • wpietri 13y ago
    He hasn't actually been arrested yet for not cooperating with a secret court order. I have to suspect that's because he was willing to shut down his company and make a big stink. It he hadn't done that, I think it would have been much easier for the feds to arrest some random guy in a Dallas apartment, suggesting that he's a nefarious hacker in league with Snowden and possibly other nefarious people. With 10k users, I'm sure they could find something to say that there were, say, "suspected drug dealers" using the service. It was very smart of him to get out front of the story. Now if the Feds go after him, he's the businessman taking a principled stand.
    • joering2 13y ago
      > I have to suspect that's because he was willing to shut down his company and make a big stink Why so many are stuck on the fact he "shut down the company" and did a good dead. I been downvoted about this before and its fine, I just didnt get my answer. The Feds did not ask him to shut down; it wasnt Government mission. Their mission was to get access to Lavabit data. Said that, regardless if he shut down or not, Government will or already did get full access to Lavabit data. Its even worse that they shut down; if they were online you could go and clean up your mailbox (not necessarily from anything illegal, but for example your own naked pictures you sent to your wife). But since they are offline, nothing can be done. Government won.
      • anologwintermut 13y ago
        Lavabit claims they encrypted email on receipt and only decrypted when you logged in and gave them a password they could unlock the encryption key with. If the feds required lavabit to retain the clear text copies of received mail longer than they did for AV/Spam filtering, shutting down the service solves this. Similarly, it prevents anyone from getting the decrypted copies when someone accesses the server. On the other hand, if Lavabit merely got a warrant of Edward Snowden's email, shutting down the service and claiming they can't talk about it is just a publicity stunt since secret or not, it's pretty clear the government has a legally valid reason for that warrant.
      • stefap2 13y ago
  • nl 13y ago
    The chilling effects of the threat of arrest for secret crimes should be even more concerning than if he has been arrested or not.
    • pessimizer 13y ago
      The middle-class public generally isn't against arrest and/or execution by the government for secret crimes. What they are against is the arrest of people that they relate to, and who share their values. The only principled stands that they can understand are standing for children, animals, personal possessions, and customer service. IMO, by doing all of these interviews where all he can be specific about is that he has had to close down his modestly successful independent business in order to protect his customers, he's made himself pretty safe. That is, until some child-porn ring bust gets press released as using lavabit as a crucial means of communication.
  • axus 13y ago
    Hmm, so enforcement of our secret laws is determined by the political implications. They seem less like "laws" and more like whims.
    • marvin 13y ago
      This is completely obvious to anyone who is making an effort at observing what's going on right now. The big problem is that is isn't obvious to a casual observer. From my perspective, as a foreigner, the US Government is currently doing a ridiculous chicken dance to avoid overt similarities to any famous totalitarian government. But at the same time, it seems very obvious that it is systematically sidestepping many principles of democracy and the rule of law. You won't be able to say something like "The US Government agencies are acting like the Stasi" and have all your facts intact. But there are plenty of dodgy things happening that would fit smoothly into the policy of many previous totalitarian governments. I think that pointing out all these small details in a credible fashion is one of the necessary actions to get more popular support against these policies. Things aren't looking very good.
    • Symmetry 13y ago
      It's not just the secret laws that are like that. I think it's an exaggeration to say that most people commit "three felonies a day", but someone running any sort of business or organization probably does something that could be interpreted as breaking some federal law or other regularly. Or the feds can just question someone until they contradict themselves on something, then bust them for lying to a federal official.
      • throwaway2048 13y ago
        this is why you never talk to the police https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
  • fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    While I hope no harm comes to Levison, part of me wishes the gov't would charge him. I'd like to think they couldn't find a jury that would convict him, and I wouldn't be surprised if it incited a large public reaction. So I bet they don't charge him; since Levison has made it obvious that he won't be bullied.
• tuxcanfly 13y ago
  “One must lie low, no matter how much it went against the grain, and try to understand that this great organization remained, so to speak, in a state of delicate balance, and that if someone took it upon himself to alter the dispositions of things around him, he ran the risk of losing his footing and falling to destruction, while the organization would simply right itself by some compensating reaction in another part of its machinery – since everything interlocked – and remain unchanged, unless, indeed, which was very probable, it became still more rigid, more vigilant, severer, and more ruthless.” ― Franz Kafka, The Trial
• northwest 13y ago
  Anything short of a very clear revolution (regarding the NSA and the political system in general) won't solve the real basic issues. I just hope it will be a rational and calm revolution, not a bloody one.
  • 01Michael10 13y ago
    There will be no revolution any time soon... Most people are to busy trying to catch up on their TV shows on their DVR. The few issues people do get fired up about are stupid ones (who can get married, fake IRS scandals, justifying shooting kids in the street, etc).
    • jimworm 13y ago
      "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious." -George Orwell, 1984
    • a3n 13y ago
      > Most people are to busy trying to catch up on their TV shows on their DVR. Bread and circus. I think you're right, there will be no revolution. But there's a good chance the US Empire will gradually dissolve and collapse in on itself. For example, Congress seems intent on making the governement non-functioning. Perhaps the NSA has a sense of history, and are trying to delay our eventual collapse, thinking that the institution and empire itself is rotten and calcified. But I'm often charitable that way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire > The first two centuries of the Empire were a period of unprecedented stability and prosperity known as the Pax Romana ("Roman Peace").[6] It reached its greatest expanse during the reign of Trajan (98–117 AD). In the 3rd century, the Empire underwent a crisis that threatened its existence, but was reunified and stabilized under the emperors Aurelian and Diocletian. Christians rose to power in the 4th century, during which time a system of dual rule was developed in the Latin West and Greek East. After the collapse of central government in the West in the 5th century, the eastern half of the Roman Empire continued as what would later be known as the Byzantine Empire.
    • wallawe 13y ago
• aspensmonster 13y ago
  >"It's hard to have a debate about the reasonableness of the government's actions — or Lavabit's response, for that matter — when we don't know what we're debating." I'd say that actually simplifies the situation quite nicely. It is unreasonable. Period. The end.
  • oleganza 13y ago
    It's pure evil, not "unreasonable". Not only you have to suffer from a person holding a gun, you also should not even try to ask for help. You are a hostage in the hands of an armed sadistic monster. That's what it is.
    • snitko 13y ago
      There's only one way to fix things: voting and participating in a political process. You solve nothing by calling government a sadistic monster. The fact that each new politician elected turns out to be a scumbag and nothing really changes, doesn't mean there's a better way to run society than a democracy. The fact that they use everyone's tax money to kill and detain innocent people all over the world and spy on everyone doesn't really mean it's a bad system. You know, the world is not all black and white, you radical.
      • 3825 13y ago
        >you radical I wonder how words like "socialist", "radical", or "reactionary" become insults. are these trends cyclical like fashion and seasons or perhaps not accurately predictable like day-to-day weather?
        • pessimizer 13y ago
          Reactionary has always been an insult.
          • jmaygarden 13y ago
            If you are referring to its origins in the French Revolution, then you could say the same for "conservative" and "right." I personally don't consider any of the aforementioned terms as derogatory. They are sometimes useful categorizations of views on specific topics.
• marcosdumay 13y ago
  > It's hard to have a debate about the reasonableness of the government's actions It's not hard at all. A government mandating people do things that they can't tell anybody is not reasonable by any measure.