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Immigration is unpopular here in germany. Indeed, it is very unpopular among many people. German politicians, in the past (60s,70s,80s), have brought in many w

Immigration is unpopular here in germany. Indeed, it is very unpopular among many people. German politicians, in the past (60s,70s,80s), have brought in many worker-immigrants mainly from turkey. They were badly needed to fill the many vacant spots in the booming economy. They left no thought to integrating / assimilating them into the german society. Up until the 1990s the political parties in germany could not even come to grips with the fact that germany was in fact an "immmigration country". They were in denial. Today germany has 12-14% foreigners, mostly from turkey, and many of them have not been integrated well into the german society. Also, unemployment is high among this group. Education chances are depressed, etc - you get the picture. Now, we are in a bind. On the one hand the birth rate has been dropping for decades. This has to do with societal trends (more women working, etc) - but is a complicated issue in itself. Only group with a healthy birth rate, ironically, are the turkish immigrants. Politicians do not have any idea what to do about the birthrate. That has to with a cultural memory of nazi-era family policies, which rewarded having many children. It's a taboo today in german politics to try to directly induce families to have more children in any way. The german economy is already suffering. The term "fachkräftemangel" has been coined for this- which means the industry is already finding it difficult to fill all the vacant spots with qualified personell.

kayoone 13y ago
Correct, in fact in general families/women from lower income and education levels (no matter if immigrants or not) tend to have more children than higher educated couples that prioritize their career. Overall germany is also not a very family-with-children-friendly country. This is in stark contrast to, for example, the US.
- rbehrends 13y ago
  While Germany has plenty of room for improvement, I'd hardly call the US a shining example of a country that's great for families with children, either.
  - kayoone 13y ago
    But the overall mentality towards Families with children is alot different from my experience.
    - rbehrends 13y ago
      Not in my experience, and families with children face a great many obstacles. The abortion rate in the US is about three times that of Germany; the majority of women who have an abortion cite that they cannot afford to have a child as a primary reason. There is no statutory maternity leave in the US (let alone parental leave). Depending on what health insurance you have, even having a baby can be pretty pricey; a friend of mine who recently had a baby ended up paying over $2,500 in coinsurance for the delivery alone. Daycare is generally much more expensive than in Germany, where daycare is heavily subsidized (daycare subsidies for low-income families vary by state). Having a positive attitude towards families with children is great (and it's arguable whether there's actually a difference), but it doesn't put food on a table or a roof over their head. The biggest practical problem that German parents face, in my experience, is that schools or daycare centers that are out at noon are difficult to square away with having both a job and children (though the problem of latchkey kids is hardly unknown in the US, either; google "Kim Brathwaite", for example).
      - waps 13y ago
        Whatever the reason, the US is doing something right. US fertility : 2.06 German fertility : 1.42 (this is WITH 10%-15% turkish immigrants having a birthrate of > 2.4) So what is it ?
        seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        Hispanics have high birth rates, and they are a growing minority (30%?), a majority in many states. Also, we have subgroups like Mormons who are very old school catholic in having lots of kids.
kamakazizuru 13y ago
I think you hit the nail on the head here. Germany it seems will continue to pay for this mistake from the 50/60/70s in a number of ways unfortunately. People are now afraid of immigrants in general. Most people don't realize that there is a VERY big difference to the economy from an Indian IT worker - who learns German - assimilates himself culturally (maybe even studied a masters or something in Germany - picking up the finer bits of your complicated culture) & the Turkish family in the shady part of the city thats living on Hartz 4. This is a huge issue for a country thats trying hard to attract foreigners (www.make-it-in-germany.com). Most other immigrants I know here - eventually get tired of this feeling of constantly have to justify that they arent here to mooch of the system - and are probably providing for some family in Brandenburg with their monthly tax and social security payments (most educated immigrants earn atleast 40-50k€ - its a natural lower limit set by the fact that you cant get a permit otherwise). This means easily 15-20k € in tax and Social security (and lovely SOLI of course) - with which they are supporting a society that looks at them as leeches. Dont get me wrong - Germans are tolerant - but that's different from inclusive. The tendency is to assume "oh these poor 3rd world people need to come here to have a good living." That simply isnt true - a well qualified person can live an equally good life in the developing world as he would in Germany. (sure maybe not everything is always on time but so what). Many people move to Germany for other reasons - be it hte love for beer (no kidding) , german cars, the green, or they wanted to be with a German person they got to know somewhere. but instead of considering any other possibilities - the average German tends to assume "ah he wants our awesome healthcare & social security). This needs to change. Especially if you want to tackle the fachkraftemängel. Those qualified people will get employed anywhere. The government gets this and has made small moves to make it "easier" - you can easily get a permit and work here now - this is good. Even the beauraucracy is less of a pain in the ass than a few years ago. What's missing though is the public education. Merkel herself at some point said "Multiculti has failed in Germany". Foreigners will take an integrationtest, learn the language and even figure out the complicated regulation system. In turn though - you need to offer them more than juts a decent salary and standard of living - you need to offer them acceptance. This is missing. People need to be given reverse integrations training or atleast provided some information - let them understand that these people aren't here to mooch of the system or steal jobs - they're here because to a large extent the country needs them.

kayoone 13y ago

Correct, in fact in general families/women from lower income and education levels (no matter if immigrants or not) tend to have more children than higher educated couples that prioritize their career. Overall germany is also not a very family-with-children-friendly country. This is in stark contrast to, for example, the US.

rbehrends 13y ago
While Germany has plenty of room for improvement, I'd hardly call the US a shining example of a country that's great for families with children, either.
- kayoone 13y ago
  But the overall mentality towards Families with children is alot different from my experience.
  - rbehrends 13y ago
    Not in my experience, and families with children face a great many obstacles. The abortion rate in the US is about three times that of Germany; the majority of women who have an abortion cite that they cannot afford to have a child as a primary reason. There is no statutory maternity leave in the US (let alone parental leave). Depending on what health insurance you have, even having a baby can be pretty pricey; a friend of mine who recently had a baby ended up paying over $2,500 in coinsurance for the delivery alone. Daycare is generally much more expensive than in Germany, where daycare is heavily subsidized (daycare subsidies for low-income families vary by state). Having a positive attitude towards families with children is great (and it's arguable whether there's actually a difference), but it doesn't put food on a table or a roof over their head. The biggest practical problem that German parents face, in my experience, is that schools or daycare centers that are out at noon are difficult to square away with having both a job and children (though the problem of latchkey kids is hardly unknown in the US, either; google "Kim Brathwaite", for example).
    - waps 13y ago
      Whatever the reason, the US is doing something right. US fertility : 2.06 German fertility : 1.42 (this is WITH 10%-15% turkish immigrants having a birthrate of > 2.4) So what is it ?
      - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        Hispanics have high birth rates, and they are a growing minority (30%?), a majority in many states. Also, we have subgroups like Mormons who are very old school catholic in having lots of kids.

kamakazizuru 13y ago

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Germany it seems will continue to pay for this mistake from the 50/60/70s in a number of ways unfortunately. People are now afraid of immigrants in general. Most people don't realize that there is a VERY big difference to the economy from an Indian IT worker - who learns German - assimilates himself culturally (maybe even studied a masters or something in Germany - picking up the finer bits of your complicated culture) & the Turkish family in the shady part of the city thats living on Hartz 4. This is a huge issue for a country thats trying hard to attract foreigners (www.make-it-in-germany.com). Most other immigrants I know here - eventually get tired of this feeling of constantly have to justify that they arent here to mooch of the system - and are probably providing for some family in Brandenburg with their monthly tax and social security payments (most educated immigrants earn atleast 40-50k€ - its a natural lower limit set by the fact that you cant get a permit otherwise). This means easily 15-20k € in tax and Social security (and lovely SOLI of course) - with which they are supporting a society that looks at them as leeches. Dont get me wrong - Germans are tolerant - but that's different from inclusive. The tendency is to assume "oh these poor 3rd world people need to come here to have a good living." That simply isnt true - a well qualified person can live an equally good life in the developing world as he would in Germany. (sure maybe not everything is always on time but so what). Many people move to Germany for other reasons - be it hte love for beer (no kidding) , german cars, the green, or they wanted to be with a German person they got to know somewhere. but instead of considering any other possibilities - the average German tends to assume "ah he wants our awesome healthcare & social security). This needs to change. Especially if you want to tackle the fachkraftemängel. Those qualified people will get employed anywhere. The government gets this and has made small moves to make it "easier" - you can easily get a permit and work here now - this is good. Even the beauraucracy is less of a pain in the ass than a few years ago. What's missing though is the public education. Merkel herself at some point said "Multiculti has failed in Germany". Foreigners will take an integrationtest, learn the language and even figure out the complicated regulation system. In turn though - you need to offer them more than juts a decent salary and standard of living - you need to offer them acceptance. This is missing. People need to be given reverse integrations training or atleast provided some information - let them understand that these people aren't here to mooch of the system or steal jobs - they're here because to a large extent the country needs them.