15 ms·

It's surprising how immigration is almost never mentioned as an alternative to these "population-drop-fighting" measures. You'd think one of the things they'd

It's surprising how immigration is almost never mentioned as an alternative to these "population-drop-fighting" measures. You'd think one of the things they'd do was make it easier for immigrants with some level of skill to get permanent residency.

ultramundane828 13y ago
They mention that briefly, but yes, this was my initial thought as well. I'm sure there are plenty of people itching to fill the empty space.
- grumpygremlin 13y ago
  Thus the policies of cultural marxism reach their inevitable conclusion.
Cass 13y ago
They actually created a new residency law designed to make immigration to Germany easier for skilled employees just a year ago. Google "blue card". It hasn't had the success they were hoping for, but they're trying.
raverbashing 13y ago
There are some initiatives towards that, like the German Blue Card After 5 years in the country you can file for permanent residency.
- levosmetalo 13y ago
  Actually, as a Blue Card holder, you can file for permanent residency after 33 months. If you learn language to at least B1 level, you can file after only 21 months. In addition to that, you partner automatically gets work permit without restriction, and you are eligible for all social benefits like health care and Kindergeld from the day one. Compare that with the H1B / Green Card situation, and the contrast is clear. It was an easy choice for me (yes, I had job offers from both USA and Germany), and will probably attract more people in the future.
  - raverbashing 13y ago
    Good Not to mention it doesn't take almost a full year to get like the H1B Getting B1 level in German should be not so complicated and attainable in, let's say, 18 months.
    - levosmetalo 13y ago
      Yes. They list a limit of 3 months just to be on the safe side, but nowadays it's usually granted in ~6 weeks.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
philipp-de 13y ago
Immigration is unpopular here in germany. Indeed, it is very unpopular among many people. German politicians, in the past (60s,70s,80s), have brought in many worker-immigrants mainly from turkey. They were badly needed to fill the many vacant spots in the booming economy. They left no thought to integrating / assimilating them into the german society. Up until the 1990s the political parties in germany could not even come to grips with the fact that germany was in fact an "immmigration country". They were in denial. Today germany has 12-14% foreigners, mostly from turkey, and many of them have not been integrated well into the german society. Also, unemployment is high among this group. Education chances are depressed, etc - you get the picture. Now, we are in a bind. On the one hand the birth rate has been dropping for decades. This has to do with societal trends (more women working, etc) - but is a complicated issue in itself. Only group with a healthy birth rate, ironically, are the turkish immigrants. Politicians do not have any idea what to do about the birthrate. That has to with a cultural memory of nazi-era family policies, which rewarded having many children. It's a taboo today in german politics to try to directly induce families to have more children in any way. The german economy is already suffering. The term "fachkräftemangel" has been coined for this- which means the industry is already finding it difficult to fill all the vacant spots with qualified personell.
- kayoone 13y ago
  Correct, in fact in general families/women from lower income and education levels (no matter if immigrants or not) tend to have more children than higher educated couples that prioritize their career. Overall germany is also not a very family-with-children-friendly country. This is in stark contrast to, for example, the US.
  - rbehrends 13y ago
    While Germany has plenty of room for improvement, I'd hardly call the US a shining example of a country that's great for families with children, either.
    - kayoone 13y ago
currywurst 13y ago
They are not happy with the way the last mass immigration (of the Turkish) turned out. But they have recently made a lot of concessions for in-demand skills like tech, nursing and so on. And if you get a salary above a certain threshold, you even qualify for a "Blue Card" that allows you to work anywhere in the EU !
- philipp-de 13y ago
  The terms of these initiatives (Fachkräfteinitiative, Blue Card) are so one sided and onerous that very few people from outside actually use them. These initiatives, started years ago, so far have flopped.
- kamakazizuru 13y ago
  Its a good step. The problem though was never the visa or whatever. The problem was and continues to be the fact that Germans as a society have trouble accepting immigrants. The first assumption (probably because of bad experiences with turks) is that these people are here to mooch of the system and wont learn our way of doing things. Thats disastrously untrue - and only serves to make Germany unattractive.
rayiner 13y ago
Immigration isn't a panacea. You have to be able to absorb and acculturate those immigrants, and you have a finite capacity to do that. This will yield down votes, but I'm an immigrant from the subcontinent and I understand what I'm talking about when I say this: it is vital to preserve western culture. Immigration done right can strengthen it and keep it vital, but done wrong it can dilute and corrupt the culture. Germany is better than India or China or the Middle East or the other countries immigrants would come from. Full stop. Westerners don't appreciate the extent to which a lot of the bad things we perceive to characterize those countries is baked into their culture. Sexism, racism, corruption at the basest level. That will follow immigrants into Germany and take root there unless immigration is slow enough to acculturate the immigrants.
- brazzy 13y ago
  It goes both ways: there seems to be a percentage somewhere between 5% and 10% of "strangers" that people can accept living among them without feeling threatened. If that percentage is exceeded and the main population starts to feel threatened, you get xenophobia and things turn ugly.
- kamakazizuru 13y ago
  That has to be the most ridiculous statement - especially since you claim to come from the subcontinent yourself. Every country has its share of problems and cultural differences - but you're looking at it from a very pessimistic and negative perspective. Germany and any other country can put in measures to ensure the kind of people do immigrate are also ones that would fit into their societies. They don't need to haul them over in boatfulls.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    For immigration to serve as a counterweight to declining birth rates, you do need to haul people over in boatfulls. And its a modern classist conceit that the virtues of western culture come from education and wealth rather than socialization and upbringing. There are plenty of educated wealthy middle easterners who cover their daughters faces in public and believe its morally acceptable.
levosmetalo 13y ago
Immigration is really a major point. As an immigrant from south European country that moved to Germany with a plan to stay here with the already formed family, all I can say it's not that easy. It's not only about giving the immigrant right to work, live, later vote in Germany. It's about absorbing them, making their life easier, and truly helping them to integrate into society. That's the effort that, right now, an immigrant has to make himself, but there's no much support from the state. My own example, I came here on Blue Card. That was easy. Then, I had to wait for half a year before my wife and children could join me. Then we had to wait for another half year before my children could start with the kindergarten. Only after that, my wife could actually start going to language / integration course. All in all, a year wasted before we could even start integrating. In addition to that, my son will start school next year, and will have only one year at German kindergarten instead of two. That will severely impact his ability to actually attend school in a yet unlearned language. What I want to say is that integration of immigrant is not easy, and there's much more that needs to be done. If you want them to integrate into the society, you should treat them much better, even better than citizen. Why? Because Germany needs them? If it's not done properly, in 50 years there will be no more German way of life. Majority of the people will not know how to use "der", "die" and "das" properly and would not even care about that. Half of the German population will be made of non integrated immigrants, leaving in small communities of people with the same origin.
- kamakazizuru 13y ago
  yes - this is exactly the point I made in my comment above. Couldnt agree with you more. Dont just make getting a visa or a job easy - make it easier for people to integrate - make people more accepted.

ultramundane828 13y ago

They mention that briefly, but yes, this was my initial thought as well. I'm sure there are plenty of people itching to fill the empty space.

grumpygremlin 13y ago
Thus the policies of cultural marxism reach their inevitable conclusion.

Cass 13y ago

They actually created a new residency law designed to make immigration to Germany easier for skilled employees just a year ago. Google "blue card". It hasn't had the success they were hoping for, but they're trying.

raverbashing 13y ago

There are some initiatives towards that, like the German Blue Card After 5 years in the country you can file for permanent residency.

levosmetalo 13y ago
Actually, as a Blue Card holder, you can file for permanent residency after 33 months. If you learn language to at least B1 level, you can file after only 21 months. In addition to that, you partner automatically gets work permit without restriction, and you are eligible for all social benefits like health care and Kindergeld from the day one. Compare that with the H1B / Green Card situation, and the contrast is clear. It was an easy choice for me (yes, I had job offers from both USA and Germany), and will probably attract more people in the future.
- raverbashing 13y ago
  Good Not to mention it doesn't take almost a full year to get like the H1B Getting B1 level in German should be not so complicated and attainable in, let's say, 18 months.
  - levosmetalo 13y ago
    Yes. They list a limit of 3 months just to be on the safe side, but nowadays it's usually granted in ~6 weeks.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

philipp-de 13y ago

Immigration is unpopular here in germany. Indeed, it is very unpopular among many people. German politicians, in the past (60s,70s,80s), have brought in many worker-immigrants mainly from turkey. They were badly needed to fill the many vacant spots in the booming economy. They left no thought to integrating / assimilating them into the german society. Up until the 1990s the political parties in germany could not even come to grips with the fact that germany was in fact an "immmigration country". They were in denial. Today germany has 12-14% foreigners, mostly from turkey, and many of them have not been integrated well into the german society. Also, unemployment is high among this group. Education chances are depressed, etc - you get the picture. Now, we are in a bind. On the one hand the birth rate has been dropping for decades. This has to do with societal trends (more women working, etc) - but is a complicated issue in itself. Only group with a healthy birth rate, ironically, are the turkish immigrants. Politicians do not have any idea what to do about the birthrate. That has to with a cultural memory of nazi-era family policies, which rewarded having many children. It's a taboo today in german politics to try to directly induce families to have more children in any way. The german economy is already suffering. The term "fachkräftemangel" has been coined for this- which means the industry is already finding it difficult to fill all the vacant spots with qualified personell.

kayoone 13y ago
Correct, in fact in general families/women from lower income and education levels (no matter if immigrants or not) tend to have more children than higher educated couples that prioritize their career. Overall germany is also not a very family-with-children-friendly country. This is in stark contrast to, for example, the US.
- rbehrends 13y ago
  While Germany has plenty of room for improvement, I'd hardly call the US a shining example of a country that's great for families with children, either.
  - kayoone 13y ago

currywurst 13y ago

They are not happy with the way the last mass immigration (of the Turkish) turned out. But they have recently made a lot of concessions for in-demand skills like tech, nursing and so on. And if you get a salary above a certain threshold, you even qualify for a "Blue Card" that allows you to work anywhere in the EU !

philipp-de 13y ago
The terms of these initiatives (Fachkräfteinitiative, Blue Card) are so one sided and onerous that very few people from outside actually use them. These initiatives, started years ago, so far have flopped.
kamakazizuru 13y ago
Its a good step. The problem though was never the visa or whatever. The problem was and continues to be the fact that Germans as a society have trouble accepting immigrants. The first assumption (probably because of bad experiences with turks) is that these people are here to mooch of the system and wont learn our way of doing things. Thats disastrously untrue - and only serves to make Germany unattractive.

rayiner 13y ago

Immigration isn't a panacea. You have to be able to absorb and acculturate those immigrants, and you have a finite capacity to do that. This will yield down votes, but I'm an immigrant from the subcontinent and I understand what I'm talking about when I say this: it is vital to preserve western culture. Immigration done right can strengthen it and keep it vital, but done wrong it can dilute and corrupt the culture. Germany is better than India or China or the Middle East or the other countries immigrants would come from. Full stop. Westerners don't appreciate the extent to which a lot of the bad things we perceive to characterize those countries is baked into their culture. Sexism, racism, corruption at the basest level. That will follow immigrants into Germany and take root there unless immigration is slow enough to acculturate the immigrants.

brazzy 13y ago
It goes both ways: there seems to be a percentage somewhere between 5% and 10% of "strangers" that people can accept living among them without feeling threatened. If that percentage is exceeded and the main population starts to feel threatened, you get xenophobia and things turn ugly.
kamakazizuru 13y ago
That has to be the most ridiculous statement - especially since you claim to come from the subcontinent yourself. Every country has its share of problems and cultural differences - but you're looking at it from a very pessimistic and negative perspective. Germany and any other country can put in measures to ensure the kind of people do immigrate are also ones that would fit into their societies. They don't need to haul them over in boatfulls.
- rayiner 13y ago
  For immigration to serve as a counterweight to declining birth rates, you do need to haul people over in boatfulls. And its a modern classist conceit that the virtues of western culture come from education and wealth rather than socialization and upbringing. There are plenty of educated wealthy middle easterners who cover their daughters faces in public and believe its morally acceptable.

levosmetalo 13y ago

Immigration is really a major point. As an immigrant from south European country that moved to Germany with a plan to stay here with the already formed family, all I can say it's not that easy. It's not only about giving the immigrant right to work, live, later vote in Germany. It's about absorbing them, making their life easier, and truly helping them to integrate into society. That's the effort that, right now, an immigrant has to make himself, but there's no much support from the state. My own example, I came here on Blue Card. That was easy. Then, I had to wait for half a year before my wife and children could join me. Then we had to wait for another half year before my children could start with the kindergarten. Only after that, my wife could actually start going to language / integration course. All in all, a year wasted before we could even start integrating. In addition to that, my son will start school next year, and will have only one year at German kindergarten instead of two. That will severely impact his ability to actually attend school in a yet unlearned language. What I want to say is that integration of immigrant is not easy, and there's much more that needs to be done. If you want them to integrate into the society, you should treat them much better, even better than citizen. Why? Because Germany needs them? If it's not done properly, in 50 years there will be no more German way of life. Majority of the people will not know how to use "der", "die" and "das" properly and would not even care about that. Half of the German population will be made of non integrated immigrants, leaving in small communities of people with the same origin.

kamakazizuru 13y ago
yes - this is exactly the point I made in my comment above. Couldnt agree with you more. Dont just make getting a visa or a job easy - make it easier for people to integrate - make people more accepted.