4 ms·

Prediction 1957: Pneumatic Tube Roadways

64 points by samsnelling 13y ago

Scaevolus 13y ago
The proposed Hyperloop's operation is quite different from a pneumatic tube, which forces objects through with air pressure. The design document explicitly describes the limitations of pneumatic tubes: "At one extreme of the potential solutions is some enlarged version of the old pneumatic tubes used to send mail and packages within and between buildings. You could, in principle, use very powerful fans to push air at high speed through a tube and propel people-sized pods all the way from LA to San Francisco. However, the friction of a 350 mile long column of air moving at anywhere near sonic velocity against the inside of the tube is so stupendously high that this is impossible for all practical purposes."
- melling 13y ago
  The 1950 prediction of a vacuum tube train a little closer? http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/engineering/future-that-never-was-pneumatic-tube-roadways#slide-33 http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/engineering/futur... The Japanese started dreaming of "high speed trains" in the 1940's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8Dkaid%C5%8D_Shinkansen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8Dkaid%C5%8D_Shinkansen Their first "bullet trains" were started in 1959 and finished in 1964. A bullet train in those days was 130 mph (210 km/h). I guess the world is a lot more complicated these days.
  - neeee 13y ago
    Also from the design document: Another extreme is the approach, advocated by Rand and ET3, of drawing a hard or near hard vacuum in the tube and then using an electromagnetic suspension. The problem with this approach is that it is incredibly hard to maintain a near vacuum in a room, let alone 700 miles (round trip) of large tube with dozens of station gateways and thousands of pods entering and exiting every day. All it takes is one leaky seal or a small crack somewhere in the hundreds of miles of tube and the whole system stops working.
    - s_q_b 13y ago
      Right. The Hyperloop's technical innovations are twofold: a tube with low-pressure that can be maintained with industrial-grade pumps rather than vacuum, and an air bearing to support the vehicle rather than maglev. My first thought is what happens if the airflow in the air bearings is disrupted? Could the turbulence lead to a crash?
- justin66 13y ago
  > The proposed Hyperloop's operation is quite different from a pneumatic tube, which forces objects through with air pressure. The Hyperloop is similar to a pneumatic tube in much the same way the Segway is similar to a scooter.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    Except scooters are wildly more practical than Segways, and a pneumatic tube at the proposed scale simply doesn't even look good on paper.
    - justin66 13y ago
      It's not meant to be a perfect analogy. It's more about the disappointed, underwhelmed feeling I got when I finally learned what the thing was. :(
- Joe-Z 13y ago
  Even if it's not the same as the hyperloop I still find it very interesting to see that similar ideas have already appeared in the 1950's and obviously not been executed. I saw this talk a while back by Peter Thiel ("You're not a lottery ticket")* where he specifically mentions the decline of big infrastructure projects, beginning around the 50's-60's. (I don't know how true this claim is though, since I haven't really studied the development of infrastructure in the USA in the 2nd half of the 20th century). I often wonder if Elon Musk could be more than just a guy making money off of awesome ideas but also a catalyzer for bigger societal changes as far as optimism in big infrastructure and future investments is concerned. *http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/29931127?utm_campaign=t.co&utm_source=29931127&utm_medium=social http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/29931127?utm_campaign=t.co&ut...
  - adrianN 13y ago
    If you like the engineering ideas of yore you should get your hands on a copy of "Engineer's Dreams" by Ley. It's full of delightful megaprojects, some of which, like the channel tunnel, have actually become reality by now.
  - Tloewald 13y ago
    We probably had to pick between big infrastructure projects that benefited ordinary people (e.g. bridge maintenance, universal health care) and big infrastructure projects for the military industrial complex (e.g. a bewildering variety of fortified / mobile / densely packed / widely spaced ICBM launchers, enormous early warning systems, fleets of bombers capable of flying high or low, fast or slow around the world and back with multiple thermonuclear weapons, enough aircraft carriers to control the world's oceans and rotate for maintenance and shore leave, an even larger number of nuclear submarines to launch ICBMs, hunt rival submarines, perform covert intelligence-gathering missions in "enemy" waters, and protect the aforementioned aircraft carriers, SDI, etc.). You can only spend more money on the military than the rest of the world combined and undertake so many other projects.
dhughes 13y ago
I'm guessing the department store vacuum tube systems used to send items to different areas of the store was the inspiration for this.
mtowle 13y ago
What do you call predictions whose sum is not predictive?
- azernik 13y ago
  Speculation.
eplanit 13y ago
With all due respect to Elon Musk (and he deserves a lot of respect) and acknowledging the truly positive and altruistic motivations (those I assume) -- his idea is good, but not new. It's fine with me if he has resurrected the notion of a "pneumatic" vehicle. Perhaps it's simply a fact that now is finally the time to do this.
- marshray 13y ago
  Musk's design is neither a pneumatic, nor a vacuum tube system. It's more like an enclosed high altitude system.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    Sort of a Concorde-railgun, if you will...
_ZeD_ 13y ago
should I mention futurama?
thufry 13y ago
Predictions of technology from long ago just aren't interesting, since it's trivial to fantasize about technologies without having to think about implementation. I can predict today of future flying cars, teleporters, mind-controlled interfaces, Turing-test AIs, electrically powered autonomous airplanes, giant tubes that go through the center of the Earth and take me directly to China, a massive spaceship that takes all of Earth's 20 billion people to a new galaxy in the year 2380, etc. etc. Doesn't mean that I know anything.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  We are scheduled to have flying cars by 2015 according to "Back to The Future Part 2." I'm sure the car companies will announce something in the next year to get us ready for it. I would just be happy with a hover board.
kps 13y ago
The original 1957 article referred to is available beginning at [1], with the drawing on the following page; the specific paragraph about pneumatic tubes is on p206 [2]. And two paragraphs later: Contents of the world's greatest libraries and schools will be available to anyone over special television services. From an armchair, it will be possible to call for any information by coded request. [1] http://books.google.com/books?id=JuEDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA100 http://books.google.com/books?id=JuEDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA100 [2] http://books.google.com/books?id=JuEDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA260 http://books.google.com/books?id=JuEDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA260
6ren 13y ago
Hyperloop simulates stratospheric flight. But its electric jet engine doesn't propel, but prevents syringe-like air build-up.
sambeau 13y ago
The Victorians had pneumatic railways powered by power stations generating a vacuum. If it wasn't for the perishability of leather we might still be using them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_railway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_railway
freshyill 13y ago
New York had it in 1873. Well, they tried to have it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beach_Pneumatic_Transit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beach_Pneumatic_Transit

64 points by samsnelling 13y ago

The proposed Hyperloop's operation is quite different from a pneumatic tube, which forces objects through with air pressure. The design document explicitly describes the limitations of pneumatic tubes: "At one extreme of the potential solutions is some enlarged version of the old pneumatic tubes used to send mail and packages within and between buildings. You could, in principle, use very powerful fans to push air at high speed through a tube and propel people-sized pods all the way from LA to San Francisco. However, the friction of a 350 mile long column of air moving at anywhere near sonic velocity against the inside of the tube is so stupendously high that this is impossible for all practical purposes."

melling 13y ago
The 1950 prediction of a vacuum tube train a little closer? http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/engineering/future-that-never-was-pneumatic-tube-roadways#slide-33 http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/engineering/futur... The Japanese started dreaming of "high speed trains" in the 1940's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8Dkaid%C5%8D_Shinkansen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8Dkaid%C5%8D_Shinkansen Their first "bullet trains" were started in 1959 and finished in 1964. A bullet train in those days was 130 mph (210 km/h). I guess the world is a lot more complicated these days.
- neeee 13y ago
  Also from the design document: Another extreme is the approach, advocated by Rand and ET3, of drawing a hard or near hard vacuum in the tube and then using an electromagnetic suspension. The problem with this approach is that it is incredibly hard to maintain a near vacuum in a room, let alone 700 miles (round trip) of large tube with dozens of station gateways and thousands of pods entering and exiting every day. All it takes is one leaky seal or a small crack somewhere in the hundreds of miles of tube and the whole system stops working.
  - s_q_b 13y ago
    Right. The Hyperloop's technical innovations are twofold: a tube with low-pressure that can be maintained with industrial-grade pumps rather than vacuum, and an air bearing to support the vehicle rather than maglev. My first thought is what happens if the airflow in the air bearings is disrupted? Could the turbulence lead to a crash?
justin66 13y ago
> The proposed Hyperloop's operation is quite different from a pneumatic tube, which forces objects through with air pressure. The Hyperloop is similar to a pneumatic tube in much the same way the Segway is similar to a scooter.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Except scooters are wildly more practical than Segways, and a pneumatic tube at the proposed scale simply doesn't even look good on paper.
  - justin66 13y ago
    It's not meant to be a perfect analogy. It's more about the disappointed, underwhelmed feeling I got when I finally learned what the thing was. :(
Joe-Z 13y ago
Even if it's not the same as the hyperloop I still find it very interesting to see that similar ideas have already appeared in the 1950's and obviously not been executed. I saw this talk a while back by Peter Thiel ("You're not a lottery ticket")* where he specifically mentions the decline of big infrastructure projects, beginning around the 50's-60's. (I don't know how true this claim is though, since I haven't really studied the development of infrastructure in the USA in the 2nd half of the 20th century). I often wonder if Elon Musk could be more than just a guy making money off of awesome ideas but also a catalyzer for bigger societal changes as far as optimism in big infrastructure and future investments is concerned. *http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/29931127?utm_campaign=t.co&utm_source=29931127&utm_medium=social http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/29931127?utm_campaign=t.co&ut...
- adrianN 13y ago
  If you like the engineering ideas of yore you should get your hands on a copy of "Engineer's Dreams" by Ley. It's full of delightful megaprojects, some of which, like the channel tunnel, have actually become reality by now.
- Tloewald 13y ago
  We probably had to pick between big infrastructure projects that benefited ordinary people (e.g. bridge maintenance, universal health care) and big infrastructure projects for the military industrial complex (e.g. a bewildering variety of fortified / mobile / densely packed / widely spaced ICBM launchers, enormous early warning systems, fleets of bombers capable of flying high or low, fast or slow around the world and back with multiple thermonuclear weapons, enough aircraft carriers to control the world's oceans and rotate for maintenance and shore leave, an even larger number of nuclear submarines to launch ICBMs, hunt rival submarines, perform covert intelligence-gathering missions in "enemy" waters, and protect the aforementioned aircraft carriers, SDI, etc.). You can only spend more money on the military than the rest of the world combined and undertake so many other projects.

dhughes 13y ago

I'm guessing the department store vacuum tube systems used to send items to different areas of the store was the inspiration for this.

mtowle 13y ago

What do you call predictions whose sum is not predictive?

azernik 13y ago
Speculation.

eplanit 13y ago

With all due respect to Elon Musk (and he deserves a lot of respect) and acknowledging the truly positive and altruistic motivations (those I assume) -- his idea is good, but not new. It's fine with me if he has resurrected the notion of a "pneumatic" vehicle. Perhaps it's simply a fact that now is finally the time to do this.

marshray 13y ago
Musk's design is neither a pneumatic, nor a vacuum tube system. It's more like an enclosed high altitude system.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Sort of a Concorde-railgun, if you will...

_ZeD_ 13y ago

should I mention futurama?

thufry 13y ago

Predictions of technology from long ago just aren't interesting, since it's trivial to fantasize about technologies without having to think about implementation. I can predict today of future flying cars, teleporters, mind-controlled interfaces, Turing-test AIs, electrically powered autonomous airplanes, giant tubes that go through the center of the Earth and take me directly to China, a massive spaceship that takes all of Earth's 20 billion people to a new galaxy in the year 2380, etc. etc. Doesn't mean that I know anything.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago
We are scheduled to have flying cars by 2015 according to "Back to The Future Part 2." I'm sure the car companies will announce something in the next year to get us ready for it. I would just be happy with a hover board.

kps 13y ago

The original 1957 article referred to is available beginning at [1], with the drawing on the following page; the specific paragraph about pneumatic tubes is on p206 [2]. And two paragraphs later: Contents of the world's greatest libraries and schools will be available to anyone over special television services. From an armchair, it will be possible to call for any information by coded request. [1] http://books.google.com/books?id=JuEDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA100 http://books.google.com/books?id=JuEDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA100 [2] http://books.google.com/books?id=JuEDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA260 http://books.google.com/books?id=JuEDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA260

6ren 13y ago

Hyperloop simulates stratospheric flight. But its electric jet engine doesn't propel, but prevents syringe-like air build-up.

sambeau 13y ago

The Victorians had pneumatic railways powered by power stations generating a vacuum. If it wasn't for the perishability of leather we might still be using them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_railway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_railway

freshyill 13y ago

New York had it in 1873. Well, they tried to have it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beach_Pneumatic_Transit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beach_Pneumatic_Transit