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"The only thing that matters in software is the experience of the user." Hell no. Software comes from software development. And software development is a pro

"The only thing that matters in software is the experience of the user." Hell no. Software comes from software development. And software development is a process. My editor, programming style, directory structures and other personal organizational behaviours do matter. This is work we do, and while the end user's experience may be identical regardless of very different personal development style options, the one which gives me the most comfort and work satisfaction is superior. So yes, I will configure my editor so that I don't have to keep repeating the same keystrokes dozens of times throughout the day. I will align things the way I see fit, and I will endeavour to study and improve my skill with the language. Not only so that I'm more efficient, but because it will bring increased contentment to the process of development.

coldtea 13y ago
>Hell no. Software comes from software development. And software development is a process. My editor, programming style, directory structures and other personal organizational behaviours do matter. This is work we do, and while the end user's experience may be identical regardless of very different personal development style options, the one which gives me the most comfort and work satisfaction is superior. Only nobody cares about you. As in a restaurant, people care about the food, not the cook. And even if you (and I) mattered, developers of a piece of software are N, where users are 1000N or 100000000N. They matter massively more. Oh, and there will always be programmers as long as there are money to be made, so the "without me [in particular] there would be no software" argument doesn't hold much either.
- doktrin 13y ago
  > As in a restaurant, people care about the food, not the cook. The health inspectors care about both the food and the cook, and the latter's workflow is certainly scrutinized. If we're going to beat this analogy to a bloody pulp, the health inspector in software land would be technical debt and colleagues. Not taking care of the process will bury the project, and the users with it. Ryan Dahl's brilliant, but I don't think his entire statement should be adhered to verbatim. It's solid guiding principle, nothing more.
  - itcmcgrath 13y ago
    No, the health inspector would be non-existing in most software shops. What a different industry it would be if all software required independent audits and the public could get access to the results.
    - doktrin 13y ago
      Colleagues are non existent in most software shops? I obviously didn't imply there was some independent software inspection service. I care about how code is written, because I'll have to work on it. My employers care about how code is written, because our reputation is on the line. It's about solving problems, certainly, but workflows directly contribute to solving problems better, faster and more reliably.
- mathattack 13y ago
  This is like saying "the only thing that matters at this hotel is service". The challenge is hotels that go overboard at the expense of employees wind up with bad service anyway. There's a reason high end hotels treat employees well. Similarly companies too crazy about short term shareholder value find that it takes committed employees to get long term results.
- rdtsc 13y ago
  > Only nobody cares about you. Except me, I care about me. And I don't want to use crappy and shitty tools. I want to use good tools. I am less productive when I use crappy tools, it can be done, but then a lot of time is spent fighting the tools not really solving problem. > Oh, and there will always be programmers as long as there are money to be made There are not that many good programmers. Or at least they are not the ones throwing resumes around. One has to find them, if they are good they are probably already in a good place and are not looking for job. So you just taking anyone from the street because they did some VBScript in High School you are going to replace one good programmers with even 100 incompetent ones. It is just not how it works.
  - msutherl 13y ago
    > And I don't want to use crappy and shitty tools. Neither does Ryan. That's what the whole rant is about. He just wants to make software for users without having to hack through the forest of bad design decisions that is the modern Linux system.
    - rdtsc 13y ago
      Yeah I agree with Ryan's point there I was just replying to the GP about how nobody cares about programmers and how programmers who whine and complain are just easy to replace like cogs in a machine.
mythz 13y ago
Technology is just a tool, for the purpose of solving end-user's problems. Spoiler: Most software you create wont be around in 10 years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zut2NLMVL_k&feature=youtu.be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zut2NLMVL_k&feature=youtu.be What matters is the value it delivers in the meantime, which is ultimately the end-user result - not how you got there.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  That you got there is important. If you didn't get there, no value was delivered to end-users.
- grannyg00se 13y ago
  What matters to me is being able to enjoy my life while providing value. And the end user doesn't gain any advantage if I happened to have suffered while I wrote the software. There's nothing wrong with setting yourself up to enjoy your work as much as possible. Yes, in the end, the software won't be around, in fact nor will those who derived value from it. All that will matter is how you got there.
- jbigelow76 13y ago
  >Spoiler: Most software you create wont be around in 10 years A personal anecdote (that at least I still chuckle about): I was working for a start up about about 5 years ago working on a the reporting system for measuring customer metrics, the data was granular enough that we allowed the customer to drill down to the per-hour activity level. As a result it was deemed important to represent the data in the customer's timezone. To "future proof" the system we had a table indicating when to shift an hour for daylight savings time. I populated the table to go out 25 years I think. My manager asked me "what happens in 2033?". But after a moment of thought he came to the same conclusion you did and 25 years was deemed sufficient.
jdub 13y ago
Software developers are users who experience software. Might be a different category of software, but user experience is still king.

coldtea 13y ago

>Hell no. Software comes from software development. And software development is a process. My editor, programming style, directory structures and other personal organizational behaviours do matter. This is work we do, and while the end user's experience may be identical regardless of very different personal development style options, the one which gives me the most comfort and work satisfaction is superior. Only nobody cares about you. As in a restaurant, people care about the food, not the cook. And even if you (and I) mattered, developers of a piece of software are N, where users are 1000N or 100000000N. They matter massively more. Oh, and there will always be programmers as long as there are money to be made, so the "without me [in particular] there would be no software" argument doesn't hold much either.

doktrin 13y ago
> As in a restaurant, people care about the food, not the cook. The health inspectors care about both the food and the cook, and the latter's workflow is certainly scrutinized. If we're going to beat this analogy to a bloody pulp, the health inspector in software land would be technical debt and colleagues. Not taking care of the process will bury the project, and the users with it. Ryan Dahl's brilliant, but I don't think his entire statement should be adhered to verbatim. It's solid guiding principle, nothing more.
- itcmcgrath 13y ago
  No, the health inspector would be non-existing in most software shops. What a different industry it would be if all software required independent audits and the public could get access to the results.
  - doktrin 13y ago
    Colleagues are non existent in most software shops? I obviously didn't imply there was some independent software inspection service. I care about how code is written, because I'll have to work on it. My employers care about how code is written, because our reputation is on the line. It's about solving problems, certainly, but workflows directly contribute to solving problems better, faster and more reliably.
mathattack 13y ago
This is like saying "the only thing that matters at this hotel is service". The challenge is hotels that go overboard at the expense of employees wind up with bad service anyway. There's a reason high end hotels treat employees well. Similarly companies too crazy about short term shareholder value find that it takes committed employees to get long term results.
rdtsc 13y ago
> Only nobody cares about you. Except me, I care about me. And I don't want to use crappy and shitty tools. I want to use good tools. I am less productive when I use crappy tools, it can be done, but then a lot of time is spent fighting the tools not really solving problem. > Oh, and there will always be programmers as long as there are money to be made There are not that many good programmers. Or at least they are not the ones throwing resumes around. One has to find them, if they are good they are probably already in a good place and are not looking for job. So you just taking anyone from the street because they did some VBScript in High School you are going to replace one good programmers with even 100 incompetent ones. It is just not how it works.
- msutherl 13y ago
  > And I don't want to use crappy and shitty tools. Neither does Ryan. That's what the whole rant is about. He just wants to make software for users without having to hack through the forest of bad design decisions that is the modern Linux system.
  - rdtsc 13y ago
    Yeah I agree with Ryan's point there I was just replying to the GP about how nobody cares about programmers and how programmers who whine and complain are just easy to replace like cogs in a machine.

mythz 13y ago

Technology is just a tool, for the purpose of solving end-user's problems. Spoiler: Most software you create wont be around in 10 years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zut2NLMVL_k&feature=youtu.be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zut2NLMVL_k&feature=youtu.be What matters is the value it delivers in the meantime, which is ultimately the end-user result - not how you got there.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago
That you got there is important. If you didn't get there, no value was delivered to end-users.
grannyg00se 13y ago
What matters to me is being able to enjoy my life while providing value. And the end user doesn't gain any advantage if I happened to have suffered while I wrote the software. There's nothing wrong with setting yourself up to enjoy your work as much as possible. Yes, in the end, the software won't be around, in fact nor will those who derived value from it. All that will matter is how you got there.
jbigelow76 13y ago
>Spoiler: Most software you create wont be around in 10 years A personal anecdote (that at least I still chuckle about): I was working for a start up about about 5 years ago working on a the reporting system for measuring customer metrics, the data was granular enough that we allowed the customer to drill down to the per-hour activity level. As a result it was deemed important to represent the data in the customer's timezone. To "future proof" the system we had a table indicating when to shift an hour for daylight savings time. I populated the table to go out 25 years I think. My manager asked me "what happens in 2033?". But after a moment of thought he came to the same conclusion you did and 25 years was deemed sufficient.

jdub 13y ago

Software developers are users who experience software. Might be a different category of software, but user experience is still king.