4 ms·

Consider a current generation Mac Pro matched spec-for-spec with BYOC prices. Which costs more for YOU (not Apple)?

jacques_chester 13y ago
I recently bought a PC, rediscovered the joys of being paralysed by the possibility that every bloody program I could download probably contained some sort of malware, nagware, searchware, spyware or crapware, and then sold my PC and paid the goddamn markup like I should have done in the first place. The two or three occasions on which I played computer games did not cover the time lost to trying to do work on a platform which doesn't have the tools I needed.
- yuhong 13y ago
  What would stop vendors creating such programs for Mac too?
  - jacques_chester 13y ago
    I don't really give a hot damn why. The difference is that with a Mac it's a hypothetical and with Windows it happened to me twice in the first week.
    - rednukleus 13y ago
      So put linux on there. Then again, if you are so bad with computers that you are "paralysed by the possibility of nagware" then maybe you should be on ChromeOS or something.
      - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        OS X works fine thanks. Leave Windows and Linux to people who want to worry about their computer.
        noir_lord 13y ago
        Nice FUD attempt there. I run all my computers on Linux (servers and desktops), I don't worry about them.
        seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        Do you ever have to break out a shell to maintain them?
        vertex-four 13y ago
        Personally, I run a Debian Wheezy desktop, and after the first week I haven't needed to touch a shell. (And most "regular users" wouldn't need to touch the shell that first week.) Updates happen near-automatically, I get a dialog pop up when they happen that asks me to enter the root password and confirm that I'd like packages X, Y and Z to be updated. Those updates have never broken my system. When I upgrade my system from Wheezy to... I think it's Jessie, next, I probably will have to drop down to the shell, however the instructions are listed quite cleanly on the Debian website and elsewhere. Ubuntu, otoh, goes the whole way and provides a GUI tool for upgrading the system.
        noir_lord 13y ago
        Break out a shell, I live in the shell? Servers don't have a GUI and I do about 90% of administration from the command line on the Desktops/Laptops (the only time I use a GUI for configuration is to configure the GUI..meta). Linux isn't Windows or Mac, The command line is expected to be used for administration (and this approach has lots of benefits, script-ability, reproducibility, the ability to send the same command to 50 identical servers to name a few). The unix (linux/freeBSD) command line is one of it's stand-out features (others been stability, cost and ease of deployment. I've yet to find a GUI that allows me to manipulate files and data in a general way that matches the linux command line, take this for example. #!/bin/bash php artisan routes | grep -i $1 |sort -k 4 | cut -d '|' -f 3 | sed 's/ GET //' | while read ln; do filename=${ln//[\/]/_}.png; echo $filename; cutycapt --url=http://metaflow.co.uk"$ln" --out=/home/dev/screenshots/$filename --min-width=1280 --min-height=1280; done (not this script is a hack job, bash-aficionados can wince now) That dumps out a list of all the routes in my currently developed webapp then loops over them converting the url to a sensible filename (/add/customer becomes _add_customer.png etc) then it uses a command line utility to visit that URL and grap an image of the page at 1280x1280 (using the webkit engine) and saves them in a folder in my home folder. With a single command I can dump 50 mock screens to png and name them with the URL and I can do this every time I change them automatically. This is what my home desktop looks like on a typical day http://i.imgur.com/vLMVAI8.png http://i.imgur.com/vLMVAI8.png
      - jacques_chester 13y ago
        I tried 6 distributions. 3 versions of Ubuntu, Arch, Red Hat and Mint. They all either ran slow, were buggy, had incomplete software repos or didn't support my hardware. (Arch was my favourite, FWIW.)
        keenerd 13y ago
        99% of the time those sorts of problems are due to what could be summarized as bad marketing. If you are not familiar with the key phrases (and we don't go out of our way to tell people these phrases), you'll miss out on crucial stuff. If you'd like to have another go at making a perfect Arch system, drop me a line.
        throwaway1979 13y ago
        I have a Macbook pro at work and at home. But I use Linux on all servers. I suggest you consider standardizing on one so you can build up your skillset and be aware of the quirks. E.g. I now understand I'd better do an apt-get update periodically or before I want to install new software. The ubuntu desktop installs with sudo apt-get install ubuntu-desktop ... etc. You are right that it is easier to pay the OSX tax and I did. But the Ubuntu/Linux desktop is almost there ... such that I probably would be okay if my next laptop just ran Linux.
        jacques_chester 13y ago
        I use ubuntu on servers, so the relative poorness of the desktop version was a rude surprise. I've been using Linux on and off long enough that my first distro was Red Hat Linux 4.
    - stinos 13y ago
      twice? You must be doing something very much wrong then :]
      - sp332 13y ago
        nagware, searchware, spyware or crapware Considering that even the Java installer for Windows tries to install the Ask.com toolbar, I'd say it's nearly inevitable.
      - jacques_chester 13y ago
        In other contexts this is called "blaming the victim". It's clear from the example of Linux and OS X that in the general case, I should not need to exercise constant vigilance and faultless scrutiny of every damn thing I install or use.
  - Someone 13y ago
    A theory: http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/broken_windows http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/broken_windows
- thejosh 13y ago
  shrug. I got a new work PC on Friday and was up and running within 30 minutes, although I did need to upgrade the kernel via deb (which took around 2 minutes) as I'm running a Haswell CPU. I run Ubuntu with LXDE, simple case of copying over my old home directory (at impressive speeds), then resuming work. If you're afraid of the choice that Windows offers you, maybe you should just stick with Mac, as they have their own store which has a good selection of garden-wall-approved apps. Windows is a great operating system, and there is a reason why it has sold as many copies as it has.
  - jacques_chester 13y ago
    A substantial fraction of the work is at a terminal, actually. My original plan was to run Linux. After 6 different distros I gave up and used Windows, after 2 months of that hell I threw it in and did what I ought to have done in the first place and paid OS X tax.
    - yapcguy 13y ago
      Xubuntu works quite well. I recommend you try XFCE for the desktop.
rsynnott 13y ago
A _current_ Mac Pro, today? You'd be significantly cheaper to build your own, as the Xeons it uses are now two generations out of date (there was never a Sandy Bridge Mac Pro; the current one is Nehalem/Westmere). However, when it came out, it was a different story; unless you went for the lowest end model (which pretty much nobody did, because why bother), a very substantial part of what you were paying was for Xeons.
- jacques_chester 13y ago
  It's faster than my old computer and a seamless upgrade. In retrospect I realised that's what I wanted. I charge enough per hour that I can quantify the value of the time I spent pissfarting around with Linux and Windows in order to "save" money. It came out as a loss. If I was playing brand-new computer games, or doing heavy duty simulations, or running complex renders etc -- sure. I'd bite the bullet and buy a current PC, the hardware is much better. But that's not my work. I don't like paying more for older stuff, but frankly it's not enough of a bother to waste so much time on in future.
  - rsynnott 13y ago
    Oh, sure, not saying people shouldn't buy them. Just commenting on the pricing from the point of view of cost added by Xeon.

I recently bought a PC, rediscovered the joys of being paralysed by the possibility that every bloody program I could download probably contained some sort of malware, nagware, searchware, spyware or crapware, and then sold my PC and paid the goddamn markup like I should have done in the first place. The two or three occasions on which I played computer games did not cover the time lost to trying to do work on a platform which doesn't have the tools I needed.

yuhong 13y ago
What would stop vendors creating such programs for Mac too?
- jacques_chester 13y ago
  I don't really give a hot damn why. The difference is that with a Mac it's a hypothetical and with Windows it happened to me twice in the first week.
  - rednukleus 13y ago
    So put linux on there. Then again, if you are so bad with computers that you are "paralysed by the possibility of nagware" then maybe you should be on ChromeOS or something.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      OS X works fine thanks. Leave Windows and Linux to people who want to worry about their computer.
      - noir_lord 13y ago
        Nice FUD attempt there. I run all my computers on Linux (servers and desktops), I don't worry about them.
        seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        Do you ever have to break out a shell to maintain them?
        vertex-four 13y ago
        Personally, I run a Debian Wheezy desktop, and after the first week I haven't needed to touch a shell. (And most "regular users" wouldn't need to touch the shell that first week.) Updates happen near-automatically, I get a dialog pop up when they happen that asks me to enter the root password and confirm that I'd like packages X, Y and Z to be updated. Those updates have never broken my system. When I upgrade my system from Wheezy to... I think it's Jessie, next, I probably will have to drop down to the shell, however the instructions are listed quite cleanly on the Debian website and elsewhere. Ubuntu, otoh, goes the whole way and provides a GUI tool for upgrading the system.
        noir_lord 13y ago
        Break out a shell, I live in the shell? Servers don't have a GUI and I do about 90% of administration from the command line on the Desktops/Laptops (the only time I use a GUI for configuration is to configure the GUI..meta). Linux isn't Windows or Mac, The command line is expected to be used for administration (and this approach has lots of benefits, script-ability, reproducibility, the ability to send the same command to 50 identical servers to name a few). The unix (linux/freeBSD) command line is one of it's stand-out features (others been stability, cost and ease of deployment. I've yet to find a GUI that allows me to manipulate files and data in a general way that matches the linux command line, take this for example. #!/bin/bash php artisan routes | grep -i $1 |sort -k 4 | cut -d '|' -f 3 | sed 's/ GET //' | while read ln; do filename=${ln//[\/]/_}.png; echo $filename; cutycapt --url=http://metaflow.co.uk"$ln" --out=/home/dev/screenshots/$filename --min-width=1280 --min-height=1280; done (not this script is a hack job, bash-aficionados can wince now) That dumps out a list of all the routes in my currently developed webapp then loops over them converting the url to a sensible filename (/add/customer becomes _add_customer.png etc) then it uses a command line utility to visit that URL and grap an image of the page at 1280x1280 (using the webkit engine) and saves them in a folder in my home folder. With a single command I can dump 50 mock screens to png and name them with the URL and I can do this every time I change them automatically. This is what my home desktop looks like on a typical day http://i.imgur.com/vLMVAI8.png http://i.imgur.com/vLMVAI8.png
    - jacques_chester 13y ago
      I tried 6 distributions. 3 versions of Ubuntu, Arch, Red Hat and Mint. They all either ran slow, were buggy, had incomplete software repos or didn't support my hardware. (Arch was my favourite, FWIW.)
      - keenerd 13y ago
        99% of the time those sorts of problems are due to what could be summarized as bad marketing. If you are not familiar with the key phrases (and we don't go out of our way to tell people these phrases), you'll miss out on crucial stuff. If you'd like to have another go at making a perfect Arch system, drop me a line.
      - throwaway1979 13y ago
        I have a Macbook pro at work and at home. But I use Linux on all servers. I suggest you consider standardizing on one so you can build up your skillset and be aware of the quirks. E.g. I now understand I'd better do an apt-get update periodically or before I want to install new software. The ubuntu desktop installs with sudo apt-get install ubuntu-desktop ... etc. You are right that it is easier to pay the OSX tax and I did. But the Ubuntu/Linux desktop is almost there ... such that I probably would be okay if my next laptop just ran Linux.
        jacques_chester 13y ago
        I use ubuntu on servers, so the relative poorness of the desktop version was a rude surprise. I've been using Linux on and off long enough that my first distro was Red Hat Linux 4.
  - stinos 13y ago
    twice? You must be doing something very much wrong then :]
    - sp332 13y ago
      nagware, searchware, spyware or crapware Considering that even the Java installer for Windows tries to install the Ask.com toolbar, I'd say it's nearly inevitable.
    - jacques_chester 13y ago
      In other contexts this is called "blaming the victim". It's clear from the example of Linux and OS X that in the general case, I should not need to exercise constant vigilance and faultless scrutiny of every damn thing I install or use.
- Someone 13y ago
  A theory: http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/broken_windows http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/broken_windows
thejosh 13y ago
shrug. I got a new work PC on Friday and was up and running within 30 minutes, although I did need to upgrade the kernel via deb (which took around 2 minutes) as I'm running a Haswell CPU. I run Ubuntu with LXDE, simple case of copying over my old home directory (at impressive speeds), then resuming work. If you're afraid of the choice that Windows offers you, maybe you should just stick with Mac, as they have their own store which has a good selection of garden-wall-approved apps. Windows is a great operating system, and there is a reason why it has sold as many copies as it has.
- jacques_chester 13y ago
  A substantial fraction of the work is at a terminal, actually. My original plan was to run Linux. After 6 different distros I gave up and used Windows, after 2 months of that hell I threw it in and did what I ought to have done in the first place and paid OS X tax.
  - yapcguy 13y ago
    Xubuntu works quite well. I recommend you try XFCE for the desktop.

rsynnott 13y ago

A _current_ Mac Pro, today? You'd be significantly cheaper to build your own, as the Xeons it uses are now two generations out of date (there was never a Sandy Bridge Mac Pro; the current one is Nehalem/Westmere). However, when it came out, it was a different story; unless you went for the lowest end model (which pretty much nobody did, because why bother), a very substantial part of what you were paying was for Xeons.

jacques_chester 13y ago
It's faster than my old computer and a seamless upgrade. In retrospect I realised that's what I wanted. I charge enough per hour that I can quantify the value of the time I spent pissfarting around with Linux and Windows in order to "save" money. It came out as a loss. If I was playing brand-new computer games, or doing heavy duty simulations, or running complex renders etc -- sure. I'd bite the bullet and buy a current PC, the hardware is much better. But that's not my work. I don't like paying more for older stuff, but frankly it's not enough of a bother to waste so much time on in future.
- rsynnott 13y ago
  Oh, sure, not saying people shouldn't buy them. Just commenting on the pricing from the point of view of cost added by Xeon.