7 ms·

I guess that, unlike Google, there is not $$$$$$$ at stake in refusing to comply.

slacka 13y ago
I lived in China when Google announced that they were refusing to comply with government censorship. Shortly after the announcement Google was blocked by the great firewall. When big sites like Wikipedia, Facebook, and Google are blocked, it drives the general population to alternatives like Tor and VPNs, making censorship less effective. http://gizmodo.com/5446712/google-refuses-to-continue-censoring-results-in-china http://gizmodo.com/5446712/google-refuses-to-continue-censor...
- akurtzhs 13y ago
  Are those sites really that big in China? I'd think Baidu and Sina Weibo are far more relevant to the general population.
  - slacka 13y ago
    Before it was censored, Google had about 1/3 of the browser market. People with education always used it for english or foreign searches but generally prefered Baido for Chinese. I lived in Shenzhen which borders Hong Kong. Facebook is huge in HK, so there was a demand for access in SZ. Surprisingly many people asked me for my facebook and I saw many coworkers using it too. When I was in Beijing and Shanghai, I didn't see it used as much except with the young, wealthy international crowd. For wikipedia, the engineers loved to use it. I even introduced a few of them to Tor when they asked me how they could use it outside of the office.
  - matthewrudy 13y ago
    Weibo and Weixin are incredibly popular. But middle class intellectuals who want to prove their western credentials will generally have a facebook account. VPNs and proxies are fairly common, so access isn't really a problem, its just a hassle.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      That was before they started their vicious attacks on VPNs. We've been through 3 paid ones this year, and still can't find one that works.
      - slacka 13y ago
        I have a free Amazon EC2 VPN that's also acting as a Tor Bridge. Over the past 4 years, between Tor and my personal VPN, I've never once been blocked in China. Setting up the bridge takes about 5 min: https://cloud.torproject.org/#get_started https://cloud.torproject.org/#get_started Setting up the PPTP server another 5 min: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PPTPServer https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PPTPServer If you want facebook on your phone, you'll need to setup a L2TP VPN, since China Unicom blocks PPTP. Instructions can be found here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/L2TPServer https://help.ubuntu.com/community/L2TPServer NOTE: A bridge is not the same as an exit node. Exit notes attract attention from authorities, not bridges. If you are just running a bridge, you are only helping people circumvent government firewalls to join the Tor network. The default EC2 Tor Cloud images only run as a bridge.
        seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        Amazon ec2 is blocked on my home ISP.
        slacka 13y ago
        You can always use Tor to set it up from home. I was in China when I setup mine. Since I returned, I never had an issue accessing it from any ISP in the states.
      - matthewrudy 13y ago
        I was using VPN ninja without problems earlier in the year. Haven't been to the mainland since march though.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  Google and Wikipedia have been blocked but not very often, and they've been pretty reliable for the last couple of years (no longer get penalty boxed on google).
- chrischen 13y ago
  The general population of China do not use Google, gmail, wikipedia, or facebook. Surprisingly, google maps is doing ok.
- libian 13y ago
  So my friends working at Google said that Google decided to go out of China because of Tibet, i.e. Google supports Tibet's independence from China as separate country, and that the whole thing about content censorship was something that Google was able to put up with and wasn't the reason for its leaving. Not sure if this were actually the case, but my friends were pretty firm about this. If it were actually true, lol, the whole world is fooled. Let's go figure out how to make Tibet free so that Google can go back to China. =P
alan_cx 13y ago
More so that non Chinese people can act against China with out risk of arrest, extradition or rendition. China is an easy target. It is very easy to take a stand against China, and get props for it, when what one is doing is risk free and frankly irrelevant. I cant see the Chinese government crying at night that they cant get wikipedia. I cant see the Chinese rising in revolt because they cant easily get wikipedia. There is no consequence for Wales and co. I say big deal. Try being Snowden. Try publishing information that breaks US law. Try circumventing US internet security. Frankly Im tired of China being a whipping boy for westerners who want to show how right on and freedom loving they are they are. It is as useless as signing an online petition. Don't get me wrong, think wikipedia is one of the best resources on the internet, I use the site a hell of a lot. I would like the Chinese people to have access to it. I fully appreciated the stand against SOPA. I very much respect the guys who set wikipedia up and all the contributors to it. But really, this "stand" amounts to not a lot, except some easy publicity. Oh, and he has complied with censorship. He had a choice: censor, or withdraw everything. Both from a Chinese POV, both achieve the exact same thing. The info they don't want their people accessing is not officially available. The Chinese people still lose out. Lastly, I understand that the Chinese people can get round the firewall in various ways and still get wikipedia in full, and that people out side China help greatly in that. Now, imagine that this was the US we were talking about. Imagine that some one helped Americans get information the US government didn't want Americans to see. Can we speculate on how far the American government might go to stop it and deal with the people involved? China is an easy, risk free target. Yeah yeah, I know I know. China "evil", m'kay? So, fine to abuse their laws and customs. But just one thing, its hardly going to speed them up in to the arms of the oh so free west. Attacking them just makes them more defensive, and it slows up their journey towards us.
- gbog 13y ago
  I'm all with you on this anti China bashing rant, it's too easy and sometime even get the smells of the yellow peril. But there is another x in the equation: seeing foreign companies or institutions go firm against governments, including China's, and taking the risk of losing market shares and money, is very instructive for the Chinese youth, it shows them, and everyone in fact, that the world is not all about money.

I lived in China when Google announced that they were refusing to comply with government censorship. Shortly after the announcement Google was blocked by the great firewall. When big sites like Wikipedia, Facebook, and Google are blocked, it drives the general population to alternatives like Tor and VPNs, making censorship less effective. http://gizmodo.com/5446712/google-refuses-to-continue-censoring-results-in-china http://gizmodo.com/5446712/google-refuses-to-continue-censor...

akurtzhs 13y ago
Are those sites really that big in China? I'd think Baidu and Sina Weibo are far more relevant to the general population.
- slacka 13y ago
  Before it was censored, Google had about 1/3 of the browser market. People with education always used it for english or foreign searches but generally prefered Baido for Chinese. I lived in Shenzhen which borders Hong Kong. Facebook is huge in HK, so there was a demand for access in SZ. Surprisingly many people asked me for my facebook and I saw many coworkers using it too. When I was in Beijing and Shanghai, I didn't see it used as much except with the young, wealthy international crowd. For wikipedia, the engineers loved to use it. I even introduced a few of them to Tor when they asked me how they could use it outside of the office.
- matthewrudy 13y ago
  Weibo and Weixin are incredibly popular. But middle class intellectuals who want to prove their western credentials will generally have a facebook account. VPNs and proxies are fairly common, so access isn't really a problem, its just a hassle.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    That was before they started their vicious attacks on VPNs. We've been through 3 paid ones this year, and still can't find one that works.
    - slacka 13y ago
      I have a free Amazon EC2 VPN that's also acting as a Tor Bridge. Over the past 4 years, between Tor and my personal VPN, I've never once been blocked in China. Setting up the bridge takes about 5 min: https://cloud.torproject.org/#get_started https://cloud.torproject.org/#get_started Setting up the PPTP server another 5 min: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PPTPServer https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PPTPServer If you want facebook on your phone, you'll need to setup a L2TP VPN, since China Unicom blocks PPTP. Instructions can be found here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/L2TPServer https://help.ubuntu.com/community/L2TPServer NOTE: A bridge is not the same as an exit node. Exit notes attract attention from authorities, not bridges. If you are just running a bridge, you are only helping people circumvent government firewalls to join the Tor network. The default EC2 Tor Cloud images only run as a bridge.
      - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        Amazon ec2 is blocked on my home ISP.
        slacka 13y ago
        You can always use Tor to set it up from home. I was in China when I setup mine. Since I returned, I never had an issue accessing it from any ISP in the states.
    - matthewrudy 13y ago
      I was using VPN ninja without problems earlier in the year. Haven't been to the mainland since march though.
seanmcdirmid 13y ago
Google and Wikipedia have been blocked but not very often, and they've been pretty reliable for the last couple of years (no longer get penalty boxed on google).
chrischen 13y ago
The general population of China do not use Google, gmail, wikipedia, or facebook. Surprisingly, google maps is doing ok.
libian 13y ago
So my friends working at Google said that Google decided to go out of China because of Tibet, i.e. Google supports Tibet's independence from China as separate country, and that the whole thing about content censorship was something that Google was able to put up with and wasn't the reason for its leaving. Not sure if this were actually the case, but my friends were pretty firm about this. If it were actually true, lol, the whole world is fooled. Let's go figure out how to make Tibet free so that Google can go back to China. =P

alan_cx 13y ago

More so that non Chinese people can act against China with out risk of arrest, extradition or rendition. China is an easy target. It is very easy to take a stand against China, and get props for it, when what one is doing is risk free and frankly irrelevant. I cant see the Chinese government crying at night that they cant get wikipedia. I cant see the Chinese rising in revolt because they cant easily get wikipedia. There is no consequence for Wales and co. I say big deal. Try being Snowden. Try publishing information that breaks US law. Try circumventing US internet security. Frankly Im tired of China being a whipping boy for westerners who want to show how right on and freedom loving they are they are. It is as useless as signing an online petition. Don't get me wrong, think wikipedia is one of the best resources on the internet, I use the site a hell of a lot. I would like the Chinese people to have access to it. I fully appreciated the stand against SOPA. I very much respect the guys who set wikipedia up and all the contributors to it. But really, this "stand" amounts to not a lot, except some easy publicity. Oh, and he has complied with censorship. He had a choice: censor, or withdraw everything. Both from a Chinese POV, both achieve the exact same thing. The info they don't want their people accessing is not officially available. The Chinese people still lose out. Lastly, I understand that the Chinese people can get round the firewall in various ways and still get wikipedia in full, and that people out side China help greatly in that. Now, imagine that this was the US we were talking about. Imagine that some one helped Americans get information the US government didn't want Americans to see. Can we speculate on how far the American government might go to stop it and deal with the people involved? China is an easy, risk free target. Yeah yeah, I know I know. China "evil", m'kay? So, fine to abuse their laws and customs. But just one thing, its hardly going to speed them up in to the arms of the oh so free west. Attacking them just makes them more defensive, and it slows up their journey towards us.

gbog 13y ago
I'm all with you on this anti China bashing rant, it's too easy and sometime even get the smells of the yellow peril. But there is another x in the equation: seeing foreign companies or institutions go firm against governments, including China's, and taking the risk of losing market shares and money, is very instructive for the Chinese youth, it shows them, and everyone in fact, that the world is not all about money.