4 ms·

Many Americans (and recent immigrants) are so spoiled, they don't even know what a lack of freedom looks like.

by chasing 13y ago

bengrunfeld 13y ago
chasing, when I was living abroad, I had a Palestinian friend who worked with me. One day he told me his neighbors had disappeared in Gaza because they were vocal against Arafat. I might be spoiled, but I've seen where a lack of freedom leads. I just thought America was a place where this stuff wouldn't happen, and where the people were protected by the Constitution. Guess I was being naive and idealistic.
- chasing 13y ago
  Assuming everything is great and assuming everything is horrible are two sides of the same naive coin.
jjoonathan 13y ago
Yes, but we're pretty sure we don't want to find out, so we'd rather start worrying while we're on the brink rather than over the edge.
- chasing 13y ago
  Oh, I agree that we need to push back against this crap. But let's keep some perspective.
  - bengrunfeld 13y ago
    Tell that to Lavabit.
IgorPartola 13y ago
My great grandmother spent 15 years staying up late at night to watch which buildings the KGB agents went into and who they black bagged every single night. My great grandfather's brother was black bagged and dragged away in the middle of the night. My family found out where he was buried decades later through an government inquiry after the attitude towards these inquiries had changed (before, if you sent one in, they instead dragged you away). The moral of the story is that the US is not nearly as bad as people might think/say, but governments watching people's every move is the first rung in the 1000 step ladder down to hell.
- e12e 13y ago
  Yes. Because we know they already black bag American Citizens, but only the bad ones, right?
  - IgorPartola 13y ago
    Somewhat, I think. I think a good way to judge a society is by how it treats its worst citizens. Holding someone without a fair trial is bad if you say your core value is that all people deserve a fair trial. Arresting someone without a warrant is bad if you say that the police is not the judge, jury, and executioner. However, there is a difference here in frequency/intensity. My great grandfather's brother was innocent as far as I can tell. He held a fairly high city-level position as a factory manager, so when he spent enough years in his job someone decided that he got a little too comfortable and might nt fall in line if push came to shove (remember this was Stalin, the paranoid maniac bank robber who killed tens of millions of people for fear of being replaced). This kind of stuff does not happen in the US. You have to piss someone off at the Federal level to get on a kill list. Bad mouthing the government is still fine so long as you do not leak actual facts.
    - e12e 13y ago
      While I agree we've seen worse regimes in history, I'm not sure we've seen much worse "democracies" in recent memory. Circumstantial evidence is apparently now enough to both be disappeared and assassinated (never mind the collateral damage). No judge, no jury. This isn't the rule of law any more. Add to all this the fact that we can now assume the NSA possess comprehensive evidence that could be used to indite major financial institutions in the wake of 2008 -- and yet that is seemingly impossible. The fact that "it's not quite as bad as Iraq was under Saddam Hussein, only with less government health care" -- isn't a very strong argument. "So the poor and the ignorant go to jail while the rich go to San Clemente" -- We Beg your Pardon America Gil Scott-Heron, 1975
      - mc32 13y ago
        >Circumstantial evidence... Circumstantial evidence is perfectly legal and does get many people convicted every day. One piece may not be enough, but you get supporting evidence and you have your case --it's a very basic tool. Indicting savvy bad bankers is very very hard. That and when the investigative ranks (those who understand the intricacies of finance law, etc.) are reduced to a fraction of what they were makes it even more difficult.

Many Americans (and recent immigrants) are so spoiled, they don't even know what a lack of freedom looks like.

by chasing 13y ago

Many Americans (and recent immigrants) are so spoiled, they don't even know what a lack of freedom looks like.

chasing, when I was living abroad, I had a Palestinian friend who worked with me. One day he told me his neighbors had disappeared in Gaza because they were vocal against Arafat. I might be spoiled, but I've seen where a lack of freedom leads. I just thought America was a place where this stuff wouldn't happen, and where the people were protected by the Constitution. Guess I was being naive and idealistic.

chasing 13y ago
Assuming everything is great and assuming everything is horrible are two sides of the same naive coin.

jjoonathan 13y ago

Yes, but we're pretty sure we don't want to find out, so we'd rather start worrying while we're on the brink rather than over the edge.

chasing 13y ago
Oh, I agree that we need to push back against this crap. But let's keep some perspective.
- bengrunfeld 13y ago
  Tell that to Lavabit.

IgorPartola 13y ago

My great grandmother spent 15 years staying up late at night to watch which buildings the KGB agents went into and who they black bagged every single night. My great grandfather's brother was black bagged and dragged away in the middle of the night. My family found out where he was buried decades later through an government inquiry after the attitude towards these inquiries had changed (before, if you sent one in, they instead dragged you away). The moral of the story is that the US is not nearly as bad as people might think/say, but governments watching people's every move is the first rung in the 1000 step ladder down to hell.

e12e 13y ago
Yes. Because we know they already black bag American Citizens, but only the bad ones, right?
- IgorPartola 13y ago
  Somewhat, I think. I think a good way to judge a society is by how it treats its worst citizens. Holding someone without a fair trial is bad if you say your core value is that all people deserve a fair trial. Arresting someone without a warrant is bad if you say that the police is not the judge, jury, and executioner. However, there is a difference here in frequency/intensity. My great grandfather's brother was innocent as far as I can tell. He held a fairly high city-level position as a factory manager, so when he spent enough years in his job someone decided that he got a little too comfortable and might nt fall in line if push came to shove (remember this was Stalin, the paranoid maniac bank robber who killed tens of millions of people for fear of being replaced). This kind of stuff does not happen in the US. You have to piss someone off at the Federal level to get on a kill list. Bad mouthing the government is still fine so long as you do not leak actual facts.
  - e12e 13y ago
    While I agree we've seen worse regimes in history, I'm not sure we've seen much worse "democracies" in recent memory. Circumstantial evidence is apparently now enough to both be disappeared and assassinated (never mind the collateral damage). No judge, no jury. This isn't the rule of law any more. Add to all this the fact that we can now assume the NSA possess comprehensive evidence that could be used to indite major financial institutions in the wake of 2008 -- and yet that is seemingly impossible. The fact that "it's not quite as bad as Iraq was under Saddam Hussein, only with less government health care" -- isn't a very strong argument. "So the poor and the ignorant go to jail while the rich go to San Clemente" -- We Beg your Pardon America Gil Scott-Heron, 1975
    - mc32 13y ago
      >Circumstantial evidence... Circumstantial evidence is perfectly legal and does get many people convicted every day. One piece may not be enough, but you get supporting evidence and you have your case --it's a very basic tool. Indicting savvy bad bankers is very very hard. That and when the investigative ranks (those who understand the intricacies of finance law, etc.) are reduced to a fraction of what they were makes it even more difficult.