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“In America, we’re not supposed to have to worry about watching our words like this when we’re talking to the press,” Binnall said. (from article) I am a new i

“In America, we’re not supposed to have to worry about watching our words like this when we’re talking to the press,” Binnall said. (from article) I am a new immigrant to America. I came with my wife from Australia 8 months ago. All my life I heard about how the US supported the freedom and rights of its people, and now that I'm here, I find that that was a sick joke. This place is a KGB state on the brink of happening.

chasing 13y ago
Many Americans (and recent immigrants) are so spoiled, they don't even know what a lack of freedom looks like.
- bengrunfeld 13y ago
  chasing, when I was living abroad, I had a Palestinian friend who worked with me. One day he told me his neighbors had disappeared in Gaza because they were vocal against Arafat. I might be spoiled, but I've seen where a lack of freedom leads. I just thought America was a place where this stuff wouldn't happen, and where the people were protected by the Constitution. Guess I was being naive and idealistic.
  - chasing 13y ago
    Assuming everything is great and assuming everything is horrible are two sides of the same naive coin.
- jjoonathan 13y ago
  Yes, but we're pretty sure we don't want to find out, so we'd rather start worrying while we're on the brink rather than over the edge.
  - chasing 13y ago
    Oh, I agree that we need to push back against this crap. But let's keep some perspective.
    - bengrunfeld 13y ago
      Tell that to Lavabit.
- IgorPartola 13y ago
  My great grandmother spent 15 years staying up late at night to watch which buildings the KGB agents went into and who they black bagged every single night. My great grandfather's brother was black bagged and dragged away in the middle of the night. My family found out where he was buried decades later through an government inquiry after the attitude towards these inquiries had changed (before, if you sent one in, they instead dragged you away). The moral of the story is that the US is not nearly as bad as people might think/say, but governments watching people's every move is the first rung in the 1000 step ladder down to hell.
  - e12e 13y ago
    Yes. Because we know they already black bag American Citizens, but only the bad ones, right?
    - IgorPartola 13y ago
      Somewhat, I think. I think a good way to judge a society is by how it treats its worst citizens. Holding someone without a fair trial is bad if you say your core value is that all people deserve a fair trial. Arresting someone without a warrant is bad if you say that the police is not the judge, jury, and executioner. However, there is a difference here in frequency/intensity. My great grandfather's brother was innocent as far as I can tell. He held a fairly high city-level position as a factory manager, so when he spent enough years in his job someone decided that he got a little too comfortable and might nt fall in line if push came to shove (remember this was Stalin, the paranoid maniac bank robber who killed tens of millions of people for fear of being replaced). This kind of stuff does not happen in the US. You have to piss someone off at the Federal level to get on a kill list. Bad mouthing the government is still fine so long as you do not leak actual facts.
      - e12e 13y ago
        While I agree we've seen worse regimes in history, I'm not sure we've seen much worse "democracies" in recent memory. Circumstantial evidence is apparently now enough to both be disappeared and assassinated (never mind the collateral damage). No judge, no jury. This isn't the rule of law any more. Add to all this the fact that we can now assume the NSA possess comprehensive evidence that could be used to indite major financial institutions in the wake of 2008 -- and yet that is seemingly impossible. The fact that "it's not quite as bad as Iraq was under Saddam Hussein, only with less government health care" -- isn't a very strong argument. "So the poor and the ignorant go to jail while the rich go to San Clemente" -- We Beg your Pardon America Gil Scott-Heron, 1975
pekk 13y ago
So you came from Australia with an axe to grind about how awful the US is. I don't understand why you bothered. You can go back. Have a nice life.
- jjoonathan 13y ago
  > [paraphrasing] We're still better than [other country] so it's OK! If two countries have a problem then the problem isn't worth fixing?! I've never understood this retort. This is the USA, we're supposed to be crazy about freedom not "eh, we're slightly better than the competition for now so let's take a nap and see where we wind up in 10 years."
- bengrunfeld 13y ago
  Dude, not cool! Slightly trollish. I was in love with the passion of the American people for civil rights. I visited in 2004 and read Archibald Cox "The Role of the Supreme Court in American Government" and "Freedom of Expression" in the Boston Public Library after some college student left it on a table, and then went and annoyed other Australians about it for years. I came here because I wanted to create a better life (the same as any other immigrant), not because I had any axes to grind. Can you blame me for being disillusioned? Again, not cool.
  - barking 13y ago
    "I came here because I wanted to create a better life" I would have thought Australia was at least as free and as prosperous as the US plus better healthcare. Are you sre you didn't just make the mistake a lot of holidaymakers do? That is, viewing your vacation destination through rose coloured glasses?
    - bengrunfeld 13y ago
      I don't know, barking. I make a lot of mistakes. Most of them before breakfast... If you want me to justify my reasons for moving here, fine. Australia was starting to slide into a quiet recession(link below), and I was having serious issues with some of the decisions the government was making. That and I had always been fascinated by the "American dream". We saw it in movies and theatre growing up and I wanted to check it out for myself. Is that so culpable? http://www.news.com.au/business/worklife/brace-for-a-white-collar-recession-experts-warn/story-e6frfm9r-1226486009556 http://www.news.com.au/business/worklife/brace-for-a-white-c...
beedogs 13y ago
I went the other direction, from the US to Australia, and I've been watching from afar as the remnants of the America I grew up taking for granted are being systematically and increasingly quickly stripped away. It's pretty heartbreaking.
- bengrunfeld 13y ago
  I hear you. What city did you move to? (Melbourne is my home town).
  - beedogs 13y ago
    Melbourne's where I ended up. Beautiful place.
- ajtaylor 13y ago
  I'm in the same boat, though I took an intermediate stop in Ireland. It kills me to see the country I grew up in and still love losing its soul. This is most definitely not what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they drafted the Constitution.
crusso 13y ago
Forces of the Federal government have been on the march and increasing power for the last 140 years. They show no signs of slowing down, let alone stopping. The irony is that the original impetus for the Federal government to assert supremacy was to give freedom to the slaves -- the right thing to do, but it's unlikely that we'll recover from that power shift any time soon.

chasing 13y ago

Many Americans (and recent immigrants) are so spoiled, they don't even know what a lack of freedom looks like.

bengrunfeld 13y ago
chasing, when I was living abroad, I had a Palestinian friend who worked with me. One day he told me his neighbors had disappeared in Gaza because they were vocal against Arafat. I might be spoiled, but I've seen where a lack of freedom leads. I just thought America was a place where this stuff wouldn't happen, and where the people were protected by the Constitution. Guess I was being naive and idealistic.
- chasing 13y ago
  Assuming everything is great and assuming everything is horrible are two sides of the same naive coin.
jjoonathan 13y ago
Yes, but we're pretty sure we don't want to find out, so we'd rather start worrying while we're on the brink rather than over the edge.
- chasing 13y ago
  Oh, I agree that we need to push back against this crap. But let's keep some perspective.
  - bengrunfeld 13y ago
    Tell that to Lavabit.
IgorPartola 13y ago
My great grandmother spent 15 years staying up late at night to watch which buildings the KGB agents went into and who they black bagged every single night. My great grandfather's brother was black bagged and dragged away in the middle of the night. My family found out where he was buried decades later through an government inquiry after the attitude towards these inquiries had changed (before, if you sent one in, they instead dragged you away). The moral of the story is that the US is not nearly as bad as people might think/say, but governments watching people's every move is the first rung in the 1000 step ladder down to hell.
- e12e 13y ago
  Yes. Because we know they already black bag American Citizens, but only the bad ones, right?
  - IgorPartola 13y ago
    Somewhat, I think. I think a good way to judge a society is by how it treats its worst citizens. Holding someone without a fair trial is bad if you say your core value is that all people deserve a fair trial. Arresting someone without a warrant is bad if you say that the police is not the judge, jury, and executioner. However, there is a difference here in frequency/intensity. My great grandfather's brother was innocent as far as I can tell. He held a fairly high city-level position as a factory manager, so when he spent enough years in his job someone decided that he got a little too comfortable and might nt fall in line if push came to shove (remember this was Stalin, the paranoid maniac bank robber who killed tens of millions of people for fear of being replaced). This kind of stuff does not happen in the US. You have to piss someone off at the Federal level to get on a kill list. Bad mouthing the government is still fine so long as you do not leak actual facts.
    - e12e 13y ago
      While I agree we've seen worse regimes in history, I'm not sure we've seen much worse "democracies" in recent memory. Circumstantial evidence is apparently now enough to both be disappeared and assassinated (never mind the collateral damage). No judge, no jury. This isn't the rule of law any more. Add to all this the fact that we can now assume the NSA possess comprehensive evidence that could be used to indite major financial institutions in the wake of 2008 -- and yet that is seemingly impossible. The fact that "it's not quite as bad as Iraq was under Saddam Hussein, only with less government health care" -- isn't a very strong argument. "So the poor and the ignorant go to jail while the rich go to San Clemente" -- We Beg your Pardon America Gil Scott-Heron, 1975

pekk 13y ago

So you came from Australia with an axe to grind about how awful the US is. I don't understand why you bothered. You can go back. Have a nice life.

jjoonathan 13y ago
> [paraphrasing] We're still better than [other country] so it's OK! If two countries have a problem then the problem isn't worth fixing?! I've never understood this retort. This is the USA, we're supposed to be crazy about freedom not "eh, we're slightly better than the competition for now so let's take a nap and see where we wind up in 10 years."
bengrunfeld 13y ago
Dude, not cool! Slightly trollish. I was in love with the passion of the American people for civil rights. I visited in 2004 and read Archibald Cox "The Role of the Supreme Court in American Government" and "Freedom of Expression" in the Boston Public Library after some college student left it on a table, and then went and annoyed other Australians about it for years. I came here because I wanted to create a better life (the same as any other immigrant), not because I had any axes to grind. Can you blame me for being disillusioned? Again, not cool.
- barking 13y ago
  "I came here because I wanted to create a better life" I would have thought Australia was at least as free and as prosperous as the US plus better healthcare. Are you sre you didn't just make the mistake a lot of holidaymakers do? That is, viewing your vacation destination through rose coloured glasses?
  - bengrunfeld 13y ago
    I don't know, barking. I make a lot of mistakes. Most of them before breakfast... If you want me to justify my reasons for moving here, fine. Australia was starting to slide into a quiet recession(link below), and I was having serious issues with some of the decisions the government was making. That and I had always been fascinated by the "American dream". We saw it in movies and theatre growing up and I wanted to check it out for myself. Is that so culpable? http://www.news.com.au/business/worklife/brace-for-a-white-collar-recession-experts-warn/story-e6frfm9r-1226486009556 http://www.news.com.au/business/worklife/brace-for-a-white-c...

beedogs 13y ago

I went the other direction, from the US to Australia, and I've been watching from afar as the remnants of the America I grew up taking for granted are being systematically and increasingly quickly stripped away. It's pretty heartbreaking.

bengrunfeld 13y ago
I hear you. What city did you move to? (Melbourne is my home town).
- beedogs 13y ago
  Melbourne's where I ended up. Beautiful place.
ajtaylor 13y ago
I'm in the same boat, though I took an intermediate stop in Ireland. It kills me to see the country I grew up in and still love losing its soul. This is most definitely not what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they drafted the Constitution.

crusso 13y ago

Forces of the Federal government have been on the march and increasing power for the last 140 years. They show no signs of slowing down, let alone stopping. The irony is that the original impetus for the Federal government to assert supremacy was to give freedom to the slaves -- the right thing to do, but it's unlikely that we'll recover from that power shift any time soon.