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The best designers I have worked with write code or wrote code at one point in their career. It is difficult working in a medium you do not understand.

by nahname 13y ago

seanmcdirmid 13y ago
The worst designers I've worked with were the ones who knew how to write code and picked up illustrator by playing with CS...hey look I can draw! Really, the training and practice that goes into a good designer is huge, if they also learn writing code, something has to give. Visual designers are much more difficult in this regard than interaction designers, who are often just former programmers anyways (though the best ones I've worked with schooled as...architects).
- nmcfarl 13y ago
  I've worked with really truly horrible designers who started as coders. But the worst UI designer I ever worked with knew how to draw pretty pictures and utterly refused to view the web as a separate media from print. Technical constraints were utterly ignored as were, frankly, a number of business constraints (Which is what really got him in trouble). A total failure. Knowing the stuff that goes on around your UI is actually an asset. And knowing the tech deeply enough to code it is of immense value. Of course you still have to be good at your core craft.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    If you are a front end programmer, do you think knowing how to sketch and design grids helps you implement good designs? Perhaps, but can you actually hire those people and have them be the best programmers at the same time? Much harder. Why would you expect from designers what you don't expect from designers? Keep in mind that good designers are as hard, if not harder, to hire than good programmers. Designers do understand the domains they are working in, otherwise they aren't very good. The developers are not that far away, so there is interaction if the spec goes somewhere where they can't (hardware constraints for phone UI, for example). On the other hand, knowing how to program would help a designer check the dev's bullsh*t that something can't be implemented, and they are just being lazy or toxic.
    - nmcfarl 13y ago
      A good question. The reason I expect a good designer know something about the media they are working in is because this is been very traditionally part of the job. Designers have been expected know what inks can and can't be reproduced on which materials. Or which printing process will be most economical etc. As you point out only the truly bad ones don’t know the baseline capabilities of their platform be it app or web design... But for as for the good ones, that do know their media, - well, I don't find it odd that some would find the best way that they could learn the constraints of their media was to play around with HTML and CSS directly (or Interface Builder). And I do think that people who have of done that are actually a bigger asset that's than people who have just read up. I assume this is because they have a more visceral feel for the costs of their designs. This does not mean that I expect my designers to code, or do production work. It just means that those designers who are capable of hacking out a toy system seem to be more capable of designing things that implement easily. And that saves me money.
      - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        I see where our disconnect is: I haven't worked with web designers, rather designers for much more technical software products where the coding tasks are much more involved. So I would also expect a web designer to play around with HTML/CSS, but then that is completely irrelevant when we are building a computer vision product, or a toolkit to support the app platform of a mobile phone. The designers might use HTML/CSS as a prototyping tool, but there are other better suited tools out there since...none of them are close to production reality anyways. There even some domains, like NUI, where separate prototyping roles are required because traditional design tools aren't good enough. So ya, given simple web/phone apps where HTML/CSS or interface builder are relevant, you could expect designers to be more involved with tweaking production assets directly. But I've never worked on those applications before, and the technical barriers for what I have worked on are quite high; expecting the designer to participate in modifying code assets is a bit crazy!
- randomdata 13y ago
  What is special about programming that hinders a designer's skill development so much? It seems like you could just as easily say that learning how to play golf could have the same effect. There is, after all, only so much time in the day – something has to give, but the sentiment, which many people seem to share, only seems to be directed at programming specifically.
  - calinet6 13y ago
    The reason for the (false) stereotype is that programmers so often have one-track specialized minds, due to many factors. But it's false: with a little effort and an education that doesn't mould people into code monkeys, programmers can branch out. As well they should: the greatest value programmers can offer is if they use their programming skill to improve other areas of their company or solve problems in a domain outside programming itself. It is an exponential sort of value increase. We need more programmer generalists, and we need to encourage and embrace them.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      Jack of all trades, master of none? Generalists are great at impoverished startups where workers have to wear many hats, they don't work so well on larger projects with larger staffs where special skills become more appreciated. Being a generalist is usually a quick ticket to a PhB role.
- calinet6 13y ago
  "if they also learn writing code, something has to give" Disagree. This is a false limit, and a false criticism rooted in ignorance and lack of experience. I don't know what else to say other than as a designer with a CS degree, I actually take offense to this statement. I know how much greater value I offer and would like other designers and programmers I work with to reach similar levels of integrated skill. Specialization is for the industrial revolution—the technological age requires expert polymaths.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    If it wasn't clear, CS in my previous post meant adobe creative studio, not computer science. I just realized these acronyms clash. Designer have lots of skills, so much that even they have to specialize often along additional axises that might not even be obvious to us (motion or color design as a specialization of visual). We are happy to just get one who has promising design skills, and most of the designer+programmers I've interviewed just don't even come close, sorry. How many programmers can draw? Is it a hiring requirement?
- hkuo 13y ago
  You seem pretty intent on drawing a negative picture of people who can do both design and code, labeling them the worst designers you've ever worked with or a jack of all trades whose ultimate route is some idiot manager role. There's nothing but benefit for a designer to also pick up some coding skills or a developer gaining an appreciation of design and interaction. And I see no reason someone can't excel at both if they truly desire. Perhaps the worst designers you've worked with did both, but don't let bad logic lead you to think that the best designers do not.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    It takes 10,000 hours of practice to become a good programmer, it takes a similar amount of practice to become a good designer. Yes, if the person spends 20,000 hours, they might be able to do both well. If the designer just learns some action script and never practices, then they aren't really learning to program. I guess you guys live in a hiring environment where good designer/programmers are easy to hire. For us, just getting good designers, or good programmers, is hard enough. The ones who claim to do both are not good enough at either to make it worth our time. We also suffer from a shortage of good designers compared to good programmers, so dev is always blocked on design and even if designers could code, they would never be given time to do so, they just so many other things to do! After a few years, their programming skills would become stale, and it would just be a waste. You sort of have to practice continuously to keep your skills up.

The best designers I have worked with write code or wrote code at one point in their career. It is difficult working in a medium you do not understand.

by nahname 13y ago

The best designers I have worked with write code or wrote code at one point in their career. It is difficult working in a medium you do not understand.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago

The worst designers I've worked with were the ones who knew how to write code and picked up illustrator by playing with CS...hey look I can draw! Really, the training and practice that goes into a good designer is huge, if they also learn writing code, something has to give. Visual designers are much more difficult in this regard than interaction designers, who are often just former programmers anyways (though the best ones I've worked with schooled as...architects).

nmcfarl 13y ago
I've worked with really truly horrible designers who started as coders. But the worst UI designer I ever worked with knew how to draw pretty pictures and utterly refused to view the web as a separate media from print. Technical constraints were utterly ignored as were, frankly, a number of business constraints (Which is what really got him in trouble). A total failure. Knowing the stuff that goes on around your UI is actually an asset. And knowing the tech deeply enough to code it is of immense value. Of course you still have to be good at your core craft.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  If you are a front end programmer, do you think knowing how to sketch and design grids helps you implement good designs? Perhaps, but can you actually hire those people and have them be the best programmers at the same time? Much harder. Why would you expect from designers what you don't expect from designers? Keep in mind that good designers are as hard, if not harder, to hire than good programmers. Designers do understand the domains they are working in, otherwise they aren't very good. The developers are not that far away, so there is interaction if the spec goes somewhere where they can't (hardware constraints for phone UI, for example). On the other hand, knowing how to program would help a designer check the dev's bullsh*t that something can't be implemented, and they are just being lazy or toxic.
  - nmcfarl 13y ago
    A good question. The reason I expect a good designer know something about the media they are working in is because this is been very traditionally part of the job. Designers have been expected know what inks can and can't be reproduced on which materials. Or which printing process will be most economical etc. As you point out only the truly bad ones don’t know the baseline capabilities of their platform be it app or web design... But for as for the good ones, that do know their media, - well, I don't find it odd that some would find the best way that they could learn the constraints of their media was to play around with HTML and CSS directly (or Interface Builder). And I do think that people who have of done that are actually a bigger asset that's than people who have just read up. I assume this is because they have a more visceral feel for the costs of their designs. This does not mean that I expect my designers to code, or do production work. It just means that those designers who are capable of hacking out a toy system seem to be more capable of designing things that implement easily. And that saves me money.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      I see where our disconnect is: I haven't worked with web designers, rather designers for much more technical software products where the coding tasks are much more involved. So I would also expect a web designer to play around with HTML/CSS, but then that is completely irrelevant when we are building a computer vision product, or a toolkit to support the app platform of a mobile phone. The designers might use HTML/CSS as a prototyping tool, but there are other better suited tools out there since...none of them are close to production reality anyways. There even some domains, like NUI, where separate prototyping roles are required because traditional design tools aren't good enough. So ya, given simple web/phone apps where HTML/CSS or interface builder are relevant, you could expect designers to be more involved with tweaking production assets directly. But I've never worked on those applications before, and the technical barriers for what I have worked on are quite high; expecting the designer to participate in modifying code assets is a bit crazy!
randomdata 13y ago
What is special about programming that hinders a designer's skill development so much? It seems like you could just as easily say that learning how to play golf could have the same effect. There is, after all, only so much time in the day – something has to give, but the sentiment, which many people seem to share, only seems to be directed at programming specifically.
- calinet6 13y ago
  The reason for the (false) stereotype is that programmers so often have one-track specialized minds, due to many factors. But it's false: with a little effort and an education that doesn't mould people into code monkeys, programmers can branch out. As well they should: the greatest value programmers can offer is if they use their programming skill to improve other areas of their company or solve problems in a domain outside programming itself. It is an exponential sort of value increase. We need more programmer generalists, and we need to encourage and embrace them.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    Jack of all trades, master of none? Generalists are great at impoverished startups where workers have to wear many hats, they don't work so well on larger projects with larger staffs where special skills become more appreciated. Being a generalist is usually a quick ticket to a PhB role.
calinet6 13y ago
"if they also learn writing code, something has to give" Disagree. This is a false limit, and a false criticism rooted in ignorance and lack of experience. I don't know what else to say other than as a designer with a CS degree, I actually take offense to this statement. I know how much greater value I offer and would like other designers and programmers I work with to reach similar levels of integrated skill. Specialization is for the industrial revolution—the technological age requires expert polymaths.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  If it wasn't clear, CS in my previous post meant adobe creative studio, not computer science. I just realized these acronyms clash. Designer have lots of skills, so much that even they have to specialize often along additional axises that might not even be obvious to us (motion or color design as a specialization of visual). We are happy to just get one who has promising design skills, and most of the designer+programmers I've interviewed just don't even come close, sorry. How many programmers can draw? Is it a hiring requirement?
hkuo 13y ago
You seem pretty intent on drawing a negative picture of people who can do both design and code, labeling them the worst designers you've ever worked with or a jack of all trades whose ultimate route is some idiot manager role. There's nothing but benefit for a designer to also pick up some coding skills or a developer gaining an appreciation of design and interaction. And I see no reason someone can't excel at both if they truly desire. Perhaps the worst designers you've worked with did both, but don't let bad logic lead you to think that the best designers do not.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  It takes 10,000 hours of practice to become a good programmer, it takes a similar amount of practice to become a good designer. Yes, if the person spends 20,000 hours, they might be able to do both well. If the designer just learns some action script and never practices, then they aren't really learning to program. I guess you guys live in a hiring environment where good designer/programmers are easy to hire. For us, just getting good designers, or good programmers, is hard enough. The ones who claim to do both are not good enough at either to make it worth our time. We also suffer from a shortage of good designers compared to good programmers, so dev is always blocked on design and even if designers could code, they would never be given time to do so, they just so many other things to do! After a few years, their programming skills would become stale, and it would just be a waste. You sort of have to practice continuously to keep your skills up.