11 ms·

Snowden's Asylum: 'It's the law, stupid'

332 points by filipmaertens 13y ago

smackay 13y ago
"In the age of digital wonders, more than ever we are dependent upon the vigilance of citizens of conscience to protect us against Orwellian scenarios of those many wannabe Darth Vadors lurking in the murky depths of the governmental bureaucracy..." This is probably the most sober assessment of the current situation which is both optimistic and depressing simultaneously. The technology has reached a point to make a snooper's wildest dreams come true but at the same time there are more and more ways to get information about wrong-doing out into the open and to discuss it which hopefully results in action to correct it. The awkward part of the Surveillance Age is that permanent vigilance is very difficult to sustain and any lapse or general complacency will be immediately taken advantage of. Keeping governments in check now appears to be a 24/7 task.
- drunkenmasta 13y ago
  you know what would be extremely helpful? If a reading list was put together concerning how citizens could become better at vigilance, information gathering, investigative journalism, etc. By complaining I feel like I am a spectator in matters not under my control. By learning and applying new knowledge I feel as if I am actively protecting myself and my ideals. So where would I start? Ethics? Psychology? Investigative journalism?
  - atondwal 13y ago
    stallman.org may not train you with all the skills you need to do investigative journalism and uncover conspiracy, but it _does_ cover the bare minimum you should do before you get started. rms has been telling us for decades that hackers needed to get our act together politically, and it seems like this is the last "I told you so" he needs to finally get us to start looking.
- fetbaffe 13y ago
  "The technology has reached a point to make a snooper's wildest dreams come true but at the same time there are more and more ways to get information about wrong-doing out into the open and to discuss it which hopefully results in action to correct it." Yes, but the cost for the whistle blower is everything while Darth Vader gets promoted.
- nikster 13y ago
  Maybe I am an eternal optimist but in my opinion, it's impossible to keep all that crazy stuff under wraps for long - information wants to be free, and it will get out one way or another. The USA is in a very bad situation thanks to the media's lock-step with the government, and all is controlled by big business. You'd think there is no way out. But at the same time, certain rights like the right to free speech do not go away. In times of great despair, great help arrives. This is why I think new channels of communication apart from TV and newspapers will arise. New channels that will not be owned by big business. HN readers will probably laugh at the notion - hey, maybe the ...internet? Yeah I know - but it seems like mass media still has a huge influence and, now, in 2013, still defines "public opinion". What's on TV is what's true. We have all the tech to change that, and I think it will change. Even though it hasn't so far. Some new way of determining AND making the public opinion will arise. I look forward to it (and if I can help enable it, I will)
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    >Maybe I am an eternal optimist but in my opinion, it's impossible to keep all that crazy stuff under wraps for long It was kept under wraps for a long time. Those IRS training materials which mentioned DEA/SOD intercepts were from 2005-2007. Each of the little pieces needed to understand what's going on has been available for a long time, but we all collectively failed to put it together[1]. >In times of great despair, great help arrives. In comic books. [1] Some of of us managed to put it together, but they were crazy tinfoil-hat types.
  - enraged_camel 13y ago
    >>Maybe I am an eternal optimist but in my opinion, it's impossible to keep all that crazy stuff under wraps for long It just needs to be kept under wraps long enough. After that, momentum takes care of the rest. I do believe that we are past the event horizon on the subject of surveillance, and things will only get worse from here.
simonh 13y ago
I'm not particularly pro- or anti-Snowden, and I'm no fan of the Russian government, but I think this article is correct. Imagine the reverse case - a Russian government agent reveals massive and pervasive, questionably legal surveillance by the FSB approved by secret courts and without proper political oversight. Said Russian arrives in the US and applies for political assylum. It would be appalling not to grant it, while obviously allowing Russia to pursue normal legal channels to apply for extradition.
- sampo 13y ago
  What this episode has shown, is that a surprising number of Americans (also commenters here in Hacker News) seem to lack that kind of sense of symmetry. EDIT: Also some people responding to this comment (whoa).
  - JanezStupar 13y ago
    Which in turn just shows how successful is American propaganda.
  - johansch 13y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism
    - tareqak 13y ago
      Honest question here. Isn't "American exceptionalism" the same kind of view that people of global superpowers throughout the ages would have had? "All roads lead to Rome" comes to mind, but there are probably a few others. Even the creation myths of a number of different civilizations consider the natives to be blessed somehow e.g. descended from the gods (compare this to how Americans see the Constitution and the Founding Fathers). EDIT: Actually, maybe a better example is legend of how Romulus and Remus (the founders of Rome) were raised by a she-wolf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus.
martinkallstrom 13y ago
In essence, the US government (not it's people) could be regarded as the global bully. It's probably because bullying works and is economical. It makes sense for them and the world where the US would have to apologize for it's behaviour is not the world we live in, no matter how much we would want to. But isn't it also a slight sign of weakness? Comparing to China, it's apparent that US more often resorts to bullying tactics. Especially if you count in military operations in that spectrum. If the US were an economical power the bullying would not be more economical than a more long-term, silent and behind the scenes overtaking of the global economy. Which is what China is engaged in and US has been in the past.
- rmc 13y ago
  Basically every great power has been described as a bully. The USA is no real exception.
- kcorbitt 13y ago
  Historically speaking, it's hard to find a nation that with broad power outside its own borders that has not used that power to bully others.
  - rainsford 13y ago
    And also historically speaking, nations with the kind of relative power that the United States has have behaved far, far worse towards other countries. There are things the US could improve upon, but the bar has been set impressively low by those who have held power before (including the United States of years past).
- tome 13y ago
  If and when China is at the same level of military capability as the US, do you believe it will refrain from "bullying" to protect its national interests?
  - cmdkeen 13y ago
    Given what China has done to Tibet over the past few decades it is safe to say the difference is night and day between the levels of "bullying" that occur.
Shivetya 13y ago
ot to a point, I will be real curious if Time gives serious consideration to Snowden as its man of the year.... let alone the boys in Sweden. back ot I said awhile back, Snowden fate is purely up to Putin, disclaim it all he wants but if Putin found advantage to shipping him home it would happen. Russia is far worse than the US when it comes to rights, but the US deserves the embarrassment it receives from this to include the obvious snub of the White House by Putin. The people who should be most embarrassed of their behavior are the press, but they are so in bed with politics now that reporting like that occurred with the Washington Post in the seventies cannot occur today.
- markdown 13y ago
  > I said awhile back, Snowden fate is purely up to Putin, disclaim it all he wants but if Putin found advantage to shipping him home it would happen. Yes, and the americans take every opportunity to bash the russians on the abuse of power of their politicians and the generally weak rule-of-law. Makes it even more laughable that in this specific instance, they want Putin to make an extra-judicial decision to extradite him.
- juhanima 13y ago
  The Nobel peace prize is actually given out by a committee nominated by the Norweigian parliament. Alfred Nobel did'nt trust his countrymen in this matter.
  - fetbaffe 13y ago
    ... or that he knew that the prize was a complete joke and gave it to the Norwegians for us to laugh at.
  - ehamberg 13y ago
    It should be noted that Norway and Sweden were in a personal union at that time – a union that wasn't dissolved until 1905.
- bobsy 13y ago
  > Russia is far worse than the US when it comes to rights To be fair year after year the US fails to cover itself in glory when it comes to rights itself. Abuse of PoW's in Iraq, extraordinary rendition, seemingly indefinite imprisonment without charge in Guantanamo, access to call records and internet usage of citizens without a warrant. I wonder about these Drone strikes which the US seems to able to do in any non-western sovereign country. It has reached a point where you wonder what will happen next. The mystifying thing is how passionate US citizens are about their right to vote. The massive rally's etc etc. And yet it seems politicians are almost always guided by big campaign contributors than the need's of the people they represent. I am somewhat stumped by the faux-rage of the press and politicians. It seems that the US shitting over civil liberties isn't even a story. Instead it is all about Snowden and Russia. Realistically if a Russian named Snowdenoff fled to the US after doing something similar to Russia there is no way the US would have handed him over.
tehwalrus 13y ago
This about sums it up, yes.
flexie 13y ago
Obama's cancellation of the summit with Putin over Russia's granting of asylum to one individual must be the most impotent foreign policy action for a quite a while. To maintain a bit of American dignity, at least Obama could have pretended that catching a 30 year old hacker was less important than improving the relationship between the two largest military powers on the planet. I can only see the move explained as internal American politics.
- adestefan 13y ago
  You do realize that is only one if the many reason why the meeting was canceled? Theres a long laundry list of other, and more important, reasons. Also, Putin has canceled the three previous meetings including two when he was in the US.
  - bowlofpetunias 13y ago
    No, flexie doesn't realize that, and neither does 99.9% of the rest of the worlds population. Which is exactly why it's such a stupid action. Politics and diplomacy are all about perception. And the perception of the US throwing a major tantrum over one hacker is the impression that will stick. Obama has just increased the damage to the image of the US, nothing else. Also, I don't quite buy the "laundry list". He could have cancelled sooner.
    - adestefan 13y ago
      99.9% of the rest of the world doesn't even know who Snowden is, what he did, or that Russia granted him temporary assylum. On top of that they probably don't even care that this meeting was canceled.
      - veidr 13y ago
        That isn't true. Part of what makes the Snowden story so significant is that a huge, huge number of people do know who he is and (at least very generally) what he did and why he is being hunted by the USA. I don't think anybody has the numbers, but I'd bet close to one in ten adult humans alive today know who he is. Certainly hundreds of millions have heard of him, at least; the story's been on prime time TV and prominently positioned in textual news sources across Japan, Europe, Canada, and most of the democratic world, and also in totalitarian states like China and Russia.
scrrr 13y ago
I wish that somebody (Michael Moore perhaps?) would make a great documentary on the topic of the surveillance state that everyone watches. (And on the seemingly broken American political system, as well.)
lyndonh 13y ago
In 5 years time Snowden will get fed up of the constant games and finally gives himself up to the US government out of sheer boredom. Then he will get shoved into a small cell, Kevin Mitnick style for 15 years. After great expense will it have been worth it ? I mean for the American people ? All those tax dollars wasted. Why isn't anyone holding the government to account for all the bad things that Snowden told the truth about ?
- GFischer 13y ago
  Are you kidding me, why would he give himself up? History is not on your side, most exiles or refugees live all their lives in exile.
  - lyndonh 13y ago
    I think you'll find that there is a big difference between the people who planned and willingly went into exile and those who had no choice. Of course he wouldn't want to give himself up. You've missed the point though. The US government is directing the world media on the chase for Snowden and keeping them distracted; no one is remotely close to being held accountable for the things that Snowden leaked about. "You told everyone that we had done something wrong, and now you're going to have to go to jail to make up for it".
- mpyne 13y ago
  Sen. Wyden and Sen. Udall don't count?
  - diminoten 13y ago
    How'd that defunding work out?
    - mpyne 13y ago
      Honestly? A lot better than I really expected it to. That the vote was close at all (let alone close to passing) was something I was impressed to see.
alan_cx 13y ago
This is one of the best articles I have read on this subject yet.
- marze 13y ago
  Yeah. A breath of fresh air, as they say.
ck2 13y ago
The idea of protesting the Olympics in Russia while we merrily went to China would be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic. Many bad things the Russians do, we do right here. If it's a contest for stupid, evil behaviors, we would only come out slightly ahead, certainly not win any race for humanity. And by the way, Russia has nuclear weapons still pointed at us - thousands of them. Canceling ANY kind of talks is a bad idea, you never know the mentality of someone behind the button.
- onebaddude 13y ago
  >Russia has nuclear weapons still pointed at us - thousands of them. Canceling ANY kind of talks is a bad idea, you never know the mentality of someone behind the button. Wow, talk about a Cold War throwback. I do know their mentality: very much the same as ours. The Russians weren't "irrational crazies" after WWII, and they aren't now.
  - ck2 13y ago
    Wasn't even implying they are crazy, after all USA also has thousands of nukes pointed all over the world too. I am saying any two countries with such powerful weapons pointed at each other's citizens should always be talking.
- snowwrestler 13y ago
  Summits between presidents do not exist to begin talks. They exist to ratify talks that lower-level diplomatic staff have already achieved agreement on. Cancelling a summit merely shows that the diplomatic staff have not achieved agreement on anything big enough for presidents to shake hands on.
diminoten 13y ago
> and a moral and political duty not to do so, especially in the circumstances surrounding the controversy over Snowden. What? Moral duty not to do so? Howso?
bengrunfeld 13y ago
Snowden's future directly affects us all. If he was incarcerated against the will of other powerful countries, it would send a strong message that personal freedom is a thing of the past, and that if you do the right thing at the expense of the government, you will be hunted down and punished. I would really like to see Snowden being more vocal and discussing his beliefs more. I think he could be a very powerful leader in the fight for privacy and policies that restrict the government's snooping activities.

332 points by filipmaertens 13y ago

"In the age of digital wonders, more than ever we are dependent upon the vigilance of citizens of conscience to protect us against Orwellian scenarios of those many wannabe Darth Vadors lurking in the murky depths of the governmental bureaucracy..." This is probably the most sober assessment of the current situation which is both optimistic and depressing simultaneously. The technology has reached a point to make a snooper's wildest dreams come true but at the same time there are more and more ways to get information about wrong-doing out into the open and to discuss it which hopefully results in action to correct it. The awkward part of the Surveillance Age is that permanent vigilance is very difficult to sustain and any lapse or general complacency will be immediately taken advantage of. Keeping governments in check now appears to be a 24/7 task.

drunkenmasta 13y ago
you know what would be extremely helpful? If a reading list was put together concerning how citizens could become better at vigilance, information gathering, investigative journalism, etc. By complaining I feel like I am a spectator in matters not under my control. By learning and applying new knowledge I feel as if I am actively protecting myself and my ideals. So where would I start? Ethics? Psychology? Investigative journalism?
- atondwal 13y ago
  stallman.org may not train you with all the skills you need to do investigative journalism and uncover conspiracy, but it _does_ cover the bare minimum you should do before you get started. rms has been telling us for decades that hackers needed to get our act together politically, and it seems like this is the last "I told you so" he needs to finally get us to start looking.
fetbaffe 13y ago
"The technology has reached a point to make a snooper's wildest dreams come true but at the same time there are more and more ways to get information about wrong-doing out into the open and to discuss it which hopefully results in action to correct it." Yes, but the cost for the whistle blower is everything while Darth Vader gets promoted.
nikster 13y ago
Maybe I am an eternal optimist but in my opinion, it's impossible to keep all that crazy stuff under wraps for long - information wants to be free, and it will get out one way or another. The USA is in a very bad situation thanks to the media's lock-step with the government, and all is controlled by big business. You'd think there is no way out. But at the same time, certain rights like the right to free speech do not go away. In times of great despair, great help arrives. This is why I think new channels of communication apart from TV and newspapers will arise. New channels that will not be owned by big business. HN readers will probably laugh at the notion - hey, maybe the ...internet? Yeah I know - but it seems like mass media still has a huge influence and, now, in 2013, still defines "public opinion". What's on TV is what's true. We have all the tech to change that, and I think it will change. Even though it hasn't so far. Some new way of determining AND making the public opinion will arise. I look forward to it (and if I can help enable it, I will)
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  >Maybe I am an eternal optimist but in my opinion, it's impossible to keep all that crazy stuff under wraps for long It was kept under wraps for a long time. Those IRS training materials which mentioned DEA/SOD intercepts were from 2005-2007. Each of the little pieces needed to understand what's going on has been available for a long time, but we all collectively failed to put it together[1]. >In times of great despair, great help arrives. In comic books. [1] Some of of us managed to put it together, but they were crazy tinfoil-hat types.
- enraged_camel 13y ago
  >>Maybe I am an eternal optimist but in my opinion, it's impossible to keep all that crazy stuff under wraps for long It just needs to be kept under wraps long enough. After that, momentum takes care of the rest. I do believe that we are past the event horizon on the subject of surveillance, and things will only get worse from here.

simonh 13y ago

I'm not particularly pro- or anti-Snowden, and I'm no fan of the Russian government, but I think this article is correct. Imagine the reverse case - a Russian government agent reveals massive and pervasive, questionably legal surveillance by the FSB approved by secret courts and without proper political oversight. Said Russian arrives in the US and applies for political assylum. It would be appalling not to grant it, while obviously allowing Russia to pursue normal legal channels to apply for extradition.

sampo 13y ago
What this episode has shown, is that a surprising number of Americans (also commenters here in Hacker News) seem to lack that kind of sense of symmetry. EDIT: Also some people responding to this comment (whoa).
- JanezStupar 13y ago
  Which in turn just shows how successful is American propaganda.
- johansch 13y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism
  - tareqak 13y ago
    Honest question here. Isn't "American exceptionalism" the same kind of view that people of global superpowers throughout the ages would have had? "All roads lead to Rome" comes to mind, but there are probably a few others. Even the creation myths of a number of different civilizations consider the natives to be blessed somehow e.g. descended from the gods (compare this to how Americans see the Constitution and the Founding Fathers). EDIT: Actually, maybe a better example is legend of how Romulus and Remus (the founders of Rome) were raised by a she-wolf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus.

martinkallstrom 13y ago

In essence, the US government (not it's people) could be regarded as the global bully. It's probably because bullying works and is economical. It makes sense for them and the world where the US would have to apologize for it's behaviour is not the world we live in, no matter how much we would want to. But isn't it also a slight sign of weakness? Comparing to China, it's apparent that US more often resorts to bullying tactics. Especially if you count in military operations in that spectrum. If the US were an economical power the bullying would not be more economical than a more long-term, silent and behind the scenes overtaking of the global economy. Which is what China is engaged in and US has been in the past.

rmc 13y ago
Basically every great power has been described as a bully. The USA is no real exception.
kcorbitt 13y ago
Historically speaking, it's hard to find a nation that with broad power outside its own borders that has not used that power to bully others.
- rainsford 13y ago
  And also historically speaking, nations with the kind of relative power that the United States has have behaved far, far worse towards other countries. There are things the US could improve upon, but the bar has been set impressively low by those who have held power before (including the United States of years past).
tome 13y ago
If and when China is at the same level of military capability as the US, do you believe it will refrain from "bullying" to protect its national interests?
- cmdkeen 13y ago
  Given what China has done to Tibet over the past few decades it is safe to say the difference is night and day between the levels of "bullying" that occur.

Shivetya 13y ago

ot to a point, I will be real curious if Time gives serious consideration to Snowden as its man of the year.... let alone the boys in Sweden. back ot I said awhile back, Snowden fate is purely up to Putin, disclaim it all he wants but if Putin found advantage to shipping him home it would happen. Russia is far worse than the US when it comes to rights, but the US deserves the embarrassment it receives from this to include the obvious snub of the White House by Putin. The people who should be most embarrassed of their behavior are the press, but they are so in bed with politics now that reporting like that occurred with the Washington Post in the seventies cannot occur today.

markdown 13y ago
> I said awhile back, Snowden fate is purely up to Putin, disclaim it all he wants but if Putin found advantage to shipping him home it would happen. Yes, and the americans take every opportunity to bash the russians on the abuse of power of their politicians and the generally weak rule-of-law. Makes it even more laughable that in this specific instance, they want Putin to make an extra-judicial decision to extradite him.
juhanima 13y ago
The Nobel peace prize is actually given out by a committee nominated by the Norweigian parliament. Alfred Nobel did'nt trust his countrymen in this matter.
- fetbaffe 13y ago
  ... or that he knew that the prize was a complete joke and gave it to the Norwegians for us to laugh at.
- ehamberg 13y ago
  It should be noted that Norway and Sweden were in a personal union at that time – a union that wasn't dissolved until 1905.
bobsy 13y ago
> Russia is far worse than the US when it comes to rights To be fair year after year the US fails to cover itself in glory when it comes to rights itself. Abuse of PoW's in Iraq, extraordinary rendition, seemingly indefinite imprisonment without charge in Guantanamo, access to call records and internet usage of citizens without a warrant. I wonder about these Drone strikes which the US seems to able to do in any non-western sovereign country. It has reached a point where you wonder what will happen next. The mystifying thing is how passionate US citizens are about their right to vote. The massive rally's etc etc. And yet it seems politicians are almost always guided by big campaign contributors than the need's of the people they represent. I am somewhat stumped by the faux-rage of the press and politicians. It seems that the US shitting over civil liberties isn't even a story. Instead it is all about Snowden and Russia. Realistically if a Russian named Snowdenoff fled to the US after doing something similar to Russia there is no way the US would have handed him over.

tehwalrus 13y ago

This about sums it up, yes.

flexie 13y ago

Obama's cancellation of the summit with Putin over Russia's granting of asylum to one individual must be the most impotent foreign policy action for a quite a while. To maintain a bit of American dignity, at least Obama could have pretended that catching a 30 year old hacker was less important than improving the relationship between the two largest military powers on the planet. I can only see the move explained as internal American politics.

adestefan 13y ago
You do realize that is only one if the many reason why the meeting was canceled? Theres a long laundry list of other, and more important, reasons. Also, Putin has canceled the three previous meetings including two when he was in the US.
- bowlofpetunias 13y ago
  No, flexie doesn't realize that, and neither does 99.9% of the rest of the worlds population. Which is exactly why it's such a stupid action. Politics and diplomacy are all about perception. And the perception of the US throwing a major tantrum over one hacker is the impression that will stick. Obama has just increased the damage to the image of the US, nothing else. Also, I don't quite buy the "laundry list". He could have cancelled sooner.
  - adestefan 13y ago
    99.9% of the rest of the world doesn't even know who Snowden is, what he did, or that Russia granted him temporary assylum. On top of that they probably don't even care that this meeting was canceled.
    - veidr 13y ago
      That isn't true. Part of what makes the Snowden story so significant is that a huge, huge number of people do know who he is and (at least very generally) what he did and why he is being hunted by the USA. I don't think anybody has the numbers, but I'd bet close to one in ten adult humans alive today know who he is. Certainly hundreds of millions have heard of him, at least; the story's been on prime time TV and prominently positioned in textual news sources across Japan, Europe, Canada, and most of the democratic world, and also in totalitarian states like China and Russia.

scrrr 13y ago

I wish that somebody (Michael Moore perhaps?) would make a great documentary on the topic of the surveillance state that everyone watches. (And on the seemingly broken American political system, as well.)

lyndonh 13y ago

In 5 years time Snowden will get fed up of the constant games and finally gives himself up to the US government out of sheer boredom. Then he will get shoved into a small cell, Kevin Mitnick style for 15 years. After great expense will it have been worth it ? I mean for the American people ? All those tax dollars wasted. Why isn't anyone holding the government to account for all the bad things that Snowden told the truth about ?

GFischer 13y ago
Are you kidding me, why would he give himself up? History is not on your side, most exiles or refugees live all their lives in exile.
- lyndonh 13y ago
  I think you'll find that there is a big difference between the people who planned and willingly went into exile and those who had no choice. Of course he wouldn't want to give himself up. You've missed the point though. The US government is directing the world media on the chase for Snowden and keeping them distracted; no one is remotely close to being held accountable for the things that Snowden leaked about. "You told everyone that we had done something wrong, and now you're going to have to go to jail to make up for it".
mpyne 13y ago
Sen. Wyden and Sen. Udall don't count?
- diminoten 13y ago
  How'd that defunding work out?
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Honestly? A lot better than I really expected it to. That the vote was close at all (let alone close to passing) was something I was impressed to see.

alan_cx 13y ago

This is one of the best articles I have read on this subject yet.

marze 13y ago
Yeah. A breath of fresh air, as they say.

ck2 13y ago

The idea of protesting the Olympics in Russia while we merrily went to China would be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic. Many bad things the Russians do, we do right here. If it's a contest for stupid, evil behaviors, we would only come out slightly ahead, certainly not win any race for humanity. And by the way, Russia has nuclear weapons still pointed at us - thousands of them. Canceling ANY kind of talks is a bad idea, you never know the mentality of someone behind the button.

onebaddude 13y ago
>Russia has nuclear weapons still pointed at us - thousands of them. Canceling ANY kind of talks is a bad idea, you never know the mentality of someone behind the button. Wow, talk about a Cold War throwback. I do know their mentality: very much the same as ours. The Russians weren't "irrational crazies" after WWII, and they aren't now.
- ck2 13y ago
  Wasn't even implying they are crazy, after all USA also has thousands of nukes pointed all over the world too. I am saying any two countries with such powerful weapons pointed at each other's citizens should always be talking.
snowwrestler 13y ago
Summits between presidents do not exist to begin talks. They exist to ratify talks that lower-level diplomatic staff have already achieved agreement on. Cancelling a summit merely shows that the diplomatic staff have not achieved agreement on anything big enough for presidents to shake hands on.

diminoten 13y ago

> and a moral and political duty not to do so, especially in the circumstances surrounding the controversy over Snowden. What? Moral duty not to do so? Howso?

bengrunfeld 13y ago

Snowden's future directly affects us all. If he was incarcerated against the will of other powerful countries, it would send a strong message that personal freedom is a thing of the past, and that if you do the right thing at the expense of the government, you will be hunted down and punished. I would really like to see Snowden being more vocal and discussing his beliefs more. I think he could be a very powerful leader in the fight for privacy and policies that restrict the government's snooping activities.