9 ms·

IRS manual detailed DEA's use of hidden intel evidence

197 points by muzz 13y ago

bediger4000 13y ago
I honestly don't see how "parallel construction" isn't considered "fruit of the poisoned tree" in considering evidence. This whole "SOD" thing explains how minor traffic infringements end up as major drug busts so often. Perhaps it also explains why possession of kiddy porn is so often among the auxilliary charges on major criminals. The NSA dragnet catches it, and the DEA SOD tips off local police to it, or maybe the DEA uses "parallel construction" to be able to charge someone with drug crimes.
- LoganCale 13y ago
  It likely is fruit of the poisoned tree. That's why they've been ordering everyone to cover it up.
  - smokeyj 13y ago
    I wonder what happens to inmates who discover they were prosecuted with illegal evidence.
    - anigbrowl 13y ago
      They get to file appeals, and they do. Such appeals have a fairly decent chance of success, although I don't have numbers to hand.
      - falk 13y ago
        How are they supposed to know if parallel construction was used in their case or not?
        ToothlessJake 13y ago
        They are not supposed to know, the government is attempting to cover up it's crimes again[1] until it can work out immunity and monetary compensation for the actors involved[2]. [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cia-chief-wanted-in-italy-for-rendition-on-his-way-back-to-us-8721235.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cia-chief-w... [2] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/10/supreme-court-telecoms-win-immunity http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/10/supreme... Edit: To the user below, this is various arms of the government passing around information amongst it's branches to avoid accountability and exposure as much as possible. Rather monolithic. Keep the ready made mantras out of this please.
        anigbrowl 13y ago
        For the nth time, government is not monolithic. It's misleading (mainly of yourself) to operate on the basis that it is.
        deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
        smokeyj 13y ago
        > For the nth time, government is not monolithic In what sense? A government is a monopoly on violence. I find monopolies to be monolithic.
        krapp 13y ago
        Government is not monolithic in the sense that (at least in the US) its sheer size and complexity prevents all the actors involved from correlating their actions and ideologies into a single conspiratorial entity like swallows in flight. Not even in regards to tyranny and violence.
        flumbaps 13y ago
        Large and complex systems can coordinate in a decentralised way to form a monolithic entity. Local interactions can lead to global convergence. Swallows in flight is a good example - each swallow only pays attention to the others nearby, yet the whole flock is coordinated. I'm not saying that is how it is in the US government. However, the closer the agencies work together, the more monolithic the government is likely to be (otherwise they wouldn't be able to cooperate).
betterunix 13y ago
So now that we know that the DEA is not merely a paramilitary force, but also a rogue intelligence agency that is in the business of lying to judges, prosecutors, and defense attorneys, can we please disband them? As an agency the DEA is one of the most (maybe even the most) destructive forces in this country.
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  Sounds great, but my bet is that it ain't happening as long as the cult of Reagan persists in the GOP.
  - flyt 13y ago
    The cult of Reagan is less powerful than the cult of private companies that exist due to government money funneled through DEA programs.
    - anigbrowl 13y ago
      Yes, but ALEC-affiliated legislators tend to trot out the Gipper when they're on the stump rather than talking about how many lobbyists they're friends with. Money talks but ultimately it's the votes that count.
    - falk 13y ago
      I wouldn't blame just Republicans for drugs not being legal and the DEA being intact. Democrats get campaign contributions from police unions, private prisons, alcohol companies, pharmaceutical companies, and prison guard unions too. The fact of the matter is that our politicians don't work for us they work for corporate interests. Also, before someone says we should elect politicians, please realize that the problem isn't the politicians. It's the American people. Americans are dumber than a box of rocks. They love their low prices they get at Walmart and don't realize how much we subsidize the company's employees via welfare programs because they refuse to pay them a living wage. The baby boomers (and possibly my generation) will have to die off before cannabis and other drugs are legalized.
ToothlessJake 13y ago
Where are the users that come in to say "I disagree with this, but consider it's validity because.." I would love to hear a thoughtful argument for how hiding the source of an investigation, including evidence used, is just under the letter of the law. Followed up with how 'overreaches' are bound to happen but are acceptable as long as results are shown(but evidence is not).
- flumbaps 13y ago
  Well, I suppose the defence would be some argument that the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine doesn't apply, because there's nothing illegal about the NSA sharing information with other agencies, and there's no obligation to share every piece of evidence in an investigation. The prosecution is required to share all exculpatory evidence with the defence, but this wouldn't be exculpatory. There is an obligation to provide probable cause in order to justify each search, seizure, warrant, arrest, etc. but this obligation was met - that would be the purpose of the parallel construction. Cases were tried based on probable cause that was shared, and so that probable cause must have been sufficient. The investigators simply did not disclose ALL the probable cause they had, (because some of it was secret). There will be some contention over whether investigators lied or simply didn't share all evidence. This will probably lead to some slippery wordplay. For example, in the case of a "random" traffic stop that was actually targeting an individual, the word "random" could be stretched to mean "without reason" - meaning that by saying it was a "random" traffic stop, investigators were really just not giving a reason for the stop. Since no reason is required for a random traffic stop (under this new definition), that's all fine. Perhaps the real problem here isn't that the NSA was sharing information, but that it is easy to find probable cause when properly motivated.
  - gyepi 13y ago
    Good try, but these won't wash. It's hard to argue against it because the facts seem quite clear and straightforward. 1. If the origin of the investigation is revealed to be illegal, the entire investigation is thrown into question and the resulting evidence could be suppressed. 2. Random traffic stops are illegal. There must be a reason for every stop. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/531/32/case.html https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/531/32/case.html
godgod 13y ago
At this point, can anyone debate that we don't have a rouge criminal element to our government? These guys are breaking the laws left and right and getting away with it.
tomrod 13y ago
Wow. Words are failing me as to how asinine the US government has become. I don't post much on political stories, but this really upsets me. I don't feel like as a single citizen I have any power to fix things either.
dictum 13y ago
First they came for the foreigners...
- wissler 13y ago
  "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    Thomas Paine is rolling in his grave given how libertarians have perverted his message to mean freedom to own lots of guns and not pay taxes.
    - ToothlessJake 13y ago
      Good thing that no one in this thread or on this site in general poses that POV.
    - ferdo 13y ago
      Thomas Paine was no friend to taxes: "War is the common harvest of all those who participate in the division and expenditure of public money, in all countries. It is the art of conquering at home; the object of it is an increase of revenue; and as revenue cannot be increased without taxes, a pretence must be made for expenditure. In reviewing the history of the English Government, its wars and its taxes, a bystander, not blinded by prejudice nor warped by interest, would declare that taxes were not raised to carry on wars, but that wars were raised to carry on taxes." Rights of Man http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/paine/thomas/p147r/complete.html http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/paine/thomas/p147r/complete....
      - nknighthb 13y ago
        Thomas Paine's objective was not what you think it was. "The first step, therefore, of practical relief, would be to abolish the poor-rates entirely, and in lieu thereof, to make a remission of taxes to the poor of double the amount of the present poor-rates, viz., four millions annually out of the surplus taxes." Rights of Man, Part the Second
ismaelc 13y ago
Here are some summary snippets: "As Reuters reported Monday, the Special Operations Division of the DEA funnels information from overseas NSA intercepts, domestic wiretaps, informants and a large DEA database of telephone records to authorities nationwide to help them launch criminal investigations of Americans.", "While the IRS document says that SOD information may only be used for drug investigations, DEA officials said the SOD role has recently expanded to organized crime and money laundering.", "According to the document, IRS agents are directed to use the tips to find new, \"independent\" evidence: \"Usable information regarding these leads must be developed from such independent sources as investigative files, subscriber and toll requests, physical surveillance, wire intercepts, and confidential source information.", "Sen. Rand Paul, R-Kentucky, a member of the Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee, said he was troubled that DEA agents have been \"trying to cover up a program that investigates Americans.\"", "The DEA database, called DICE, consists largely of phone log and Internet data gathered legally by the DEA through subpoenas, arrests and search warrants nationwide."
andrewfelix 13y ago
This is what happens when you industrialise law enforcement and incarceration. There is an incentive to prosecute and convict as many people as possible, regardless of any real evidence of a crime or the existence of a victim.

197 points by muzz 13y ago

I honestly don't see how "parallel construction" isn't considered "fruit of the poisoned tree" in considering evidence. This whole "SOD" thing explains how minor traffic infringements end up as major drug busts so often. Perhaps it also explains why possession of kiddy porn is so often among the auxilliary charges on major criminals. The NSA dragnet catches it, and the DEA SOD tips off local police to it, or maybe the DEA uses "parallel construction" to be able to charge someone with drug crimes.

LoganCale 13y ago
It likely is fruit of the poisoned tree. That's why they've been ordering everyone to cover it up.
- smokeyj 13y ago
  I wonder what happens to inmates who discover they were prosecuted with illegal evidence.
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    They get to file appeals, and they do. Such appeals have a fairly decent chance of success, although I don't have numbers to hand.
    - falk 13y ago
      How are they supposed to know if parallel construction was used in their case or not?
      - ToothlessJake 13y ago
        They are not supposed to know, the government is attempting to cover up it's crimes again[1] until it can work out immunity and monetary compensation for the actors involved[2]. [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cia-chief-wanted-in-italy-for-rendition-on-his-way-back-to-us-8721235.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cia-chief-w... [2] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/10/supreme-court-telecoms-win-immunity http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/10/supreme... Edit: To the user below, this is various arms of the government passing around information amongst it's branches to avoid accountability and exposure as much as possible. Rather monolithic. Keep the ready made mantras out of this please.
        anigbrowl 13y ago
        For the nth time, government is not monolithic. It's misleading (mainly of yourself) to operate on the basis that it is.
        deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
        smokeyj 13y ago
        > For the nth time, government is not monolithic In what sense? A government is a monopoly on violence. I find monopolies to be monolithic.
        krapp 13y ago
        Government is not monolithic in the sense that (at least in the US) its sheer size and complexity prevents all the actors involved from correlating their actions and ideologies into a single conspiratorial entity like swallows in flight. Not even in regards to tyranny and violence.
        flumbaps 13y ago
        Large and complex systems can coordinate in a decentralised way to form a monolithic entity. Local interactions can lead to global convergence. Swallows in flight is a good example - each swallow only pays attention to the others nearby, yet the whole flock is coordinated. I'm not saying that is how it is in the US government. However, the closer the agencies work together, the more monolithic the government is likely to be (otherwise they wouldn't be able to cooperate).

betterunix 13y ago

So now that we know that the DEA is not merely a paramilitary force, but also a rogue intelligence agency that is in the business of lying to judges, prosecutors, and defense attorneys, can we please disband them? As an agency the DEA is one of the most (maybe even the most) destructive forces in this country.

anigbrowl 13y ago
Sounds great, but my bet is that it ain't happening as long as the cult of Reagan persists in the GOP.
- flyt 13y ago
  The cult of Reagan is less powerful than the cult of private companies that exist due to government money funneled through DEA programs.
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    Yes, but ALEC-affiliated legislators tend to trot out the Gipper when they're on the stump rather than talking about how many lobbyists they're friends with. Money talks but ultimately it's the votes that count.
  - falk 13y ago
    I wouldn't blame just Republicans for drugs not being legal and the DEA being intact. Democrats get campaign contributions from police unions, private prisons, alcohol companies, pharmaceutical companies, and prison guard unions too. The fact of the matter is that our politicians don't work for us they work for corporate interests. Also, before someone says we should elect politicians, please realize that the problem isn't the politicians. It's the American people. Americans are dumber than a box of rocks. They love their low prices they get at Walmart and don't realize how much we subsidize the company's employees via welfare programs because they refuse to pay them a living wage. The baby boomers (and possibly my generation) will have to die off before cannabis and other drugs are legalized.

ToothlessJake 13y ago

Where are the users that come in to say "I disagree with this, but consider it's validity because.." I would love to hear a thoughtful argument for how hiding the source of an investigation, including evidence used, is just under the letter of the law. Followed up with how 'overreaches' are bound to happen but are acceptable as long as results are shown(but evidence is not).

flumbaps 13y ago
Well, I suppose the defence would be some argument that the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine doesn't apply, because there's nothing illegal about the NSA sharing information with other agencies, and there's no obligation to share every piece of evidence in an investigation. The prosecution is required to share all exculpatory evidence with the defence, but this wouldn't be exculpatory. There is an obligation to provide probable cause in order to justify each search, seizure, warrant, arrest, etc. but this obligation was met - that would be the purpose of the parallel construction. Cases were tried based on probable cause that was shared, and so that probable cause must have been sufficient. The investigators simply did not disclose ALL the probable cause they had, (because some of it was secret). There will be some contention over whether investigators lied or simply didn't share all evidence. This will probably lead to some slippery wordplay. For example, in the case of a "random" traffic stop that was actually targeting an individual, the word "random" could be stretched to mean "without reason" - meaning that by saying it was a "random" traffic stop, investigators were really just not giving a reason for the stop. Since no reason is required for a random traffic stop (under this new definition), that's all fine. Perhaps the real problem here isn't that the NSA was sharing information, but that it is easy to find probable cause when properly motivated.
- gyepi 13y ago
  Good try, but these won't wash. It's hard to argue against it because the facts seem quite clear and straightforward. 1. If the origin of the investigation is revealed to be illegal, the entire investigation is thrown into question and the resulting evidence could be suppressed. 2. Random traffic stops are illegal. There must be a reason for every stop. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/531/32/case.html https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/531/32/case.html

godgod 13y ago

At this point, can anyone debate that we don't have a rouge criminal element to our government? These guys are breaking the laws left and right and getting away with it.

tomrod 13y ago

Wow. Words are failing me as to how asinine the US government has become. I don't post much on political stories, but this really upsets me. I don't feel like as a single citizen I have any power to fix things either.

dictum 13y ago

First they came for the foreigners...

wissler 13y ago
"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  Thomas Paine is rolling in his grave given how libertarians have perverted his message to mean freedom to own lots of guns and not pay taxes.
  - ToothlessJake 13y ago
    Good thing that no one in this thread or on this site in general poses that POV.
  - ferdo 13y ago
    Thomas Paine was no friend to taxes: "War is the common harvest of all those who participate in the division and expenditure of public money, in all countries. It is the art of conquering at home; the object of it is an increase of revenue; and as revenue cannot be increased without taxes, a pretence must be made for expenditure. In reviewing the history of the English Government, its wars and its taxes, a bystander, not blinded by prejudice nor warped by interest, would declare that taxes were not raised to carry on wars, but that wars were raised to carry on taxes." Rights of Man http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/paine/thomas/p147r/complete.html http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/paine/thomas/p147r/complete....
    - nknighthb 13y ago
      Thomas Paine's objective was not what you think it was. "The first step, therefore, of practical relief, would be to abolish the poor-rates entirely, and in lieu thereof, to make a remission of taxes to the poor of double the amount of the present poor-rates, viz., four millions annually out of the surplus taxes." Rights of Man, Part the Second

ismaelc 13y ago

Here are some summary snippets: "As Reuters reported Monday, the Special Operations Division of the DEA funnels information from overseas NSA intercepts, domestic wiretaps, informants and a large DEA database of telephone records to authorities nationwide to help them launch criminal investigations of Americans.", "While the IRS document says that SOD information may only be used for drug investigations, DEA officials said the SOD role has recently expanded to organized crime and money laundering.", "According to the document, IRS agents are directed to use the tips to find new, \"independent\" evidence: \"Usable information regarding these leads must be developed from such independent sources as investigative files, subscriber and toll requests, physical surveillance, wire intercepts, and confidential source information.", "Sen. Rand Paul, R-Kentucky, a member of the Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee, said he was troubled that DEA agents have been \"trying to cover up a program that investigates Americans.\"", "The DEA database, called DICE, consists largely of phone log and Internet data gathered legally by the DEA through subpoenas, arrests and search warrants nationwide."

andrewfelix 13y ago

This is what happens when you industrialise law enforcement and incarceration. There is an incentive to prosecute and convict as many people as possible, regardless of any real evidence of a crime or the existence of a victim.