4 ms·

That's how the iOS core location API works (and it has been this way since iOS 5 atleast, if not earlier). In particular, there is a |startMonitoringSignifican

by tsycho 13y ago

That's how the iOS core location API works (and it has been this way since iOS 5 atleast, if not earlier). In particular, there is a |startMonitoringSignificantLocationChanges| method (https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/CoreLocation/Reference/CLLocationManager_Class/CLLocationManager/CLLocationManager.html#//apple_ref/occ/instm/CLLocationManager/startMonitoringSignificantLocationChanges https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/CoreLo...), which "callbacks" into apps that have registered with the Core Location framework for significant change updates. The update is provided generally only when cell towers change, so it is not a battery drain (or not a significant one). Hence, your mobile operator definitely has this data, and is most likely already tracking it and/or piping it to the NSA etc. Significant change monitoring is used by Google Now among other apps (I believe Facebook also does this, I find that more sneaky since they have no obvious need for it). Google Maps navigation does not use this, since it needs more granular and accurate data hence it uses the more battery-intensive location APIs. If the complaint is that it's okay for Apple to collect this data for apps to use, but there is no need to log it, especially since the user might choose to not allow any apps to access their location data, then that's a fair point. I don't know if iOS shows these logs only on the beta versions, or whether they are stored persistently on release versions as well. Source: I am a iOS dev, and have built location based apps.

rismay 13y ago
@tsycho is right. I want to provide a little more "context" to this comment. This is hacker news after all. As an aside and shout out: @willvarfar's demo reminds me of Jer Thorp's talk from a TedX a couple of years back: http://youtu.be/Q9wcvFkWpsM http://youtu.be/Q9wcvFkWpsM Background: I have some experience with iOS location APIs too. My concept was called wrkstrm (Here is a quick 1.5 minute demo I made for the AngelHack 2012 summer finals: http://youtu.be/U0adNGyXsuE http://youtu.be/U0adNGyXsuE) Apple has been refining CoreLocation almost every year since iOS 2 with a focus to battery life. A huge addition came in iOS 5 which introduced the API changes that @tsycho mentioned - significant location monitoring and geo fencing. Again, @tsycho was astute to note that this information was ALREADY being logged by the phone and provided to telcos (there was a huge scare about this a couple of years ago). All Apple did was give developers access to this data without having to hack (check out @willvarfar's demo and OpenPaths). Another aside: These two APIs are what prompted me to learn how to code. I was seriously disappointed when I found out that Apple was "cheating" the implementation of these APIs. The resolution to these APIs is crap - something like football fields of disparity. This is what started my journey into finding a more accurate way to geo fence and track locations. The screenshots @ladino linked to use a different approach to generate. This information is NEW. Also it was made possible by two sensor driven user interface innovations which seem totally irrelevant. First, in iOS 6 Apple started running the accelerometer all day with it's raise to speak to Siri feature - (simply put the phone to your ear to activate Siri). Now with iOS 7, Apple has introduced a "constant on" gyroscope, with the introduction of the Parallax effect. Now Apple can (for FREE) measure "stay" events when the iPhone is not moving (using signal processing) without necessarily resorting to expensive / inaccurate geo fencing. That is what provides the new location data @tsycho showed. Why am I so sure that this is what Apple is doing? Apple was originally planning to go even further by providing step count data (similar to the Galaxy S4's S Health data) to developers. This is only possible by running the aforementioned sensors and using signal processing. This was shown in the new iOS 7 technologies during the keynote and even in the iOS 7 beta 1 documentation, but all mentions were abruptly removed with beta 2 and beyond. Look for this is iOS 7.1 or iOS 8. If you are interested I've decided to elaborate on this post over at my nascent blog: http://wrkstrm.postach.io/post/core-location-evolution http://wrkstrm.postach.io/post/core-location-evolution
- voodoo123 13y ago
  Siri uses the proximity sensor to implement raise to talk. The gyro for parallax is only turned on when the screen is on. The rest of your comment is pretty much tinfoil.
  - MBCook 13y ago
    The proximity sensor is not enough to trigger "raise to talk", you also have to have a little jerk of acceleration. If you have the feature enabled, try slowly raising the phone... it won't trigger.
    - voodoo123 13y ago
      Fair enough - however there is no evidence of how far up the stack that data goes - accelerometers do sudden movement sensing on-chip - not via the CPU. My other points still stand.
      - rismay 13y ago
        My main point is that Apple is looking to push sensor data up the stack via new APIs in an energy efficient manner by reusing / repurposing components. True - I don't work for Apple. But I've sampled most "context aware" frameworks and talked to some of the developers that implemented them. Pretty much every "frequent location" tracking implementation works in a similar way. I'm not saying anything revolutionary here (look up sensor fusion). My 2 cents is just pointing out how meticulous Apple is when it comes to battery drain. There are other examples of this in iOS 6. The best one is how the CoreLocation team used the new MapKit vector graphics to clip GPS coordinates to streets. Again, Apple didn't invent a new technology to improve GPS accuracy, it leverage a new user interface innovation. To implement this Apple released a activity type (driving, walking, etc) API which alerted CoreLocation as to when it would be appropriate to clip coordinates.
        voodoo123 13y ago
        Fair enough!
eddieroger 13y ago
One really important bit of information to add to the first full paragraph is that when the app tries to use startMonitoringForSignificantChanges: for the first time, the user is asked whether or not they want the app to. If they select "Don't Allow", then it's game over for that app until the user changes the setting in Settings. This doesn't stop iOS from doing what it's doing, but should quell fears that random apps are just logging all kinds of user data and sending it to who knows where.
- rismay 13y ago
  Very true. I wasn't even aware of that part of the Settings app until I started developing. Apple should at least allow developers to "deep link" into the settings screen to remove that friction.
  - 6chars 13y ago
    Apple used to allow that (well, developers figured out the right URIs to use), but they broke it in iOS 5.1.1 or 6 IIRC.
yalogin 13y ago
I doubt Apple shares this info with the Telcos or why this is even useful to the Telcos. They already know the cell tower you are in. Granted they don't know the exact coordinates but for the most part that should be enough for the NSA. The telcos already know your home address and in some cases where you work as well.
- rismay 13y ago
  I was paraphrasing. Apple stopped doing giving carriers access with iOS 5. http://theweek.com/article/index/222053/the-carrier-iq-cellphone-scandal-an-insane-breach-of-trust http://theweek.com/article/index/222053/the-carrier-iq-cellp... Right now it just collects the data for traffic estimates. http://allthingsd.com/20110427/apple-breaks-its-silence-on-location-gate-plans-to-ship-white-iphone-on-thursday/ http://allthingsd.com/20110427/apple-breaks-its-silence-on-l...

by tsycho 13y ago

rismay 13y ago

@tsycho is right. I want to provide a little more "context" to this comment. This is hacker news after all. As an aside and shout out: @willvarfar's demo reminds me of Jer Thorp's talk from a TedX a couple of years back: http://youtu.be/Q9wcvFkWpsM http://youtu.be/Q9wcvFkWpsM Background: I have some experience with iOS location APIs too. My concept was called wrkstrm (Here is a quick 1.5 minute demo I made for the AngelHack 2012 summer finals: http://youtu.be/U0adNGyXsuE http://youtu.be/U0adNGyXsuE) Apple has been refining CoreLocation almost every year since iOS 2 with a focus to battery life. A huge addition came in iOS 5 which introduced the API changes that @tsycho mentioned - significant location monitoring and geo fencing. Again, @tsycho was astute to note that this information was ALREADY being logged by the phone and provided to telcos (there was a huge scare about this a couple of years ago). All Apple did was give developers access to this data without having to hack (check out @willvarfar's demo and OpenPaths). Another aside: These two APIs are what prompted me to learn how to code. I was seriously disappointed when I found out that Apple was "cheating" the implementation of these APIs. The resolution to these APIs is crap - something like football fields of disparity. This is what started my journey into finding a more accurate way to geo fence and track locations. The screenshots @ladino linked to use a different approach to generate. This information is NEW. Also it was made possible by two sensor driven user interface innovations which seem totally irrelevant. First, in iOS 6 Apple started running the accelerometer all day with it's raise to speak to Siri feature - (simply put the phone to your ear to activate Siri). Now with iOS 7, Apple has introduced a "constant on" gyroscope, with the introduction of the Parallax effect. Now Apple can (for FREE) measure "stay" events when the iPhone is not moving (using signal processing) without necessarily resorting to expensive / inaccurate geo fencing. That is what provides the new location data @tsycho showed. Why am I so sure that this is what Apple is doing? Apple was originally planning to go even further by providing step count data (similar to the Galaxy S4's S Health data) to developers. This is only possible by running the aforementioned sensors and using signal processing. This was shown in the new iOS 7 technologies during the keynote and even in the iOS 7 beta 1 documentation, but all mentions were abruptly removed with beta 2 and beyond. Look for this is iOS 7.1 or iOS 8. If you are interested I've decided to elaborate on this post over at my nascent blog: http://wrkstrm.postach.io/post/core-location-evolution http://wrkstrm.postach.io/post/core-location-evolution

voodoo123 13y ago
Siri uses the proximity sensor to implement raise to talk. The gyro for parallax is only turned on when the screen is on. The rest of your comment is pretty much tinfoil.
- MBCook 13y ago
  The proximity sensor is not enough to trigger "raise to talk", you also have to have a little jerk of acceleration. If you have the feature enabled, try slowly raising the phone... it won't trigger.
  - voodoo123 13y ago
    Fair enough - however there is no evidence of how far up the stack that data goes - accelerometers do sudden movement sensing on-chip - not via the CPU. My other points still stand.
    - rismay 13y ago
      My main point is that Apple is looking to push sensor data up the stack via new APIs in an energy efficient manner by reusing / repurposing components. True - I don't work for Apple. But I've sampled most "context aware" frameworks and talked to some of the developers that implemented them. Pretty much every "frequent location" tracking implementation works in a similar way. I'm not saying anything revolutionary here (look up sensor fusion). My 2 cents is just pointing out how meticulous Apple is when it comes to battery drain. There are other examples of this in iOS 6. The best one is how the CoreLocation team used the new MapKit vector graphics to clip GPS coordinates to streets. Again, Apple didn't invent a new technology to improve GPS accuracy, it leverage a new user interface innovation. To implement this Apple released a activity type (driving, walking, etc) API which alerted CoreLocation as to when it would be appropriate to clip coordinates.
      - voodoo123 13y ago
        Fair enough!

eddieroger 13y ago

One really important bit of information to add to the first full paragraph is that when the app tries to use startMonitoringForSignificantChanges: for the first time, the user is asked whether or not they want the app to. If they select "Don't Allow", then it's game over for that app until the user changes the setting in Settings. This doesn't stop iOS from doing what it's doing, but should quell fears that random apps are just logging all kinds of user data and sending it to who knows where.

rismay 13y ago
Very true. I wasn't even aware of that part of the Settings app until I started developing. Apple should at least allow developers to "deep link" into the settings screen to remove that friction.
- 6chars 13y ago
  Apple used to allow that (well, developers figured out the right URIs to use), but they broke it in iOS 5.1.1 or 6 IIRC.

yalogin 13y ago

I doubt Apple shares this info with the Telcos or why this is even useful to the Telcos. They already know the cell tower you are in. Granted they don't know the exact coordinates but for the most part that should be enough for the NSA. The telcos already know your home address and in some cases where you work as well.

rismay 13y ago
I was paraphrasing. Apple stopped doing giving carriers access with iOS 5. http://theweek.com/article/index/222053/the-carrier-iq-cellphone-scandal-an-insane-breach-of-trust http://theweek.com/article/index/222053/the-carrier-iq-cellp... Right now it just collects the data for traffic estimates. http://allthingsd.com/20110427/apple-breaks-its-silence-on-location-gate-plans-to-ship-white-iphone-on-thursday/ http://allthingsd.com/20110427/apple-breaks-its-silence-on-l...