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...and this is the moment that you realize there aren't so many Obj-C developers out there as much as there are that many iOS developers out there, all being fo

...and this is the moment that you realize there aren't so many Obj-C developers out there as much as there are that many iOS developers out there, all being forced to use one particular language. Edit: For the record, I am a fan of Obj-C, not an iOS developer, and would love to see more movement on GNUStep. I just need the time...

mikeash 13y ago
Really, I think there are plenty of ObjC fans, but ObjC developers can be divided into two groups: 1. Those who use it unwillingly, and happily use some other environment when not targeting Apple platforms. 2. Those who are big Apple fans and don't see the point of targeting non-Apple platforms in the first place. I'm sure there are exceptions, but not enough for GNUStep to get traction.
- zw 13y ago
  To me, GNUStep has always been a cool project but cripplingly behind. It's always moved at a glacial pace, even in comparison to Apple's glacial framework development pace. I think your excellent blog posts over time are evidence enough for this - it's always been behind with like Quartz and stuff, and nowadays it has just been slipping further and further. I think its stagnation also got wrapped up in that whole "freedom" wankery after iOS came out.
- drivingmenuts 13y ago
  IIR, GNUStep has always been a stepchild on Linux, with KDE and Gnome sucking up all the air in the room. The developers are great fans and all, but they are few and far between. By the time iOS rolled around, GNUStep and Obj-C on Linux seemed completely dead and, with no pressing need to write software for a handheld on one platform and a desktop on another, it's stayed that way. GNUStep missed the opportunity to cash in on more people working in Obj-C.
- cstejerean 13y ago
  I'd love to target non-Apple platforms, but if I don't have the time to work on improving GNUStep. I suspect there are others in this camp. Until GNUStep catches up I'm fine with targeting OS X only if I need to write a native GUI application.
- ajross 13y ago
  Category #1 doesn't really qualify as a "fan" by any definition I know, unless you similarly talk about people maintaining legacy web sites because there's money in it as "PHP fans". And if category #2 really has total overlap with "ObjC fans" then I think you have a mistaken correlation in your statistics. You're measuring Apple developers, not people particularly enthused with Objective C as a language. I think I agree with what the poster upthread was hinting at: ObjC is a fine language, but when compared to other more modern tools in the same space (C++, Java, C#, D, Go, maybe Haskell, etc...) it really doesn't have much to recommend it. People who tend to be language "fans" have more glittery toys to attract them.
  - FireBeyond 13y ago
    "I think there are plenty of ObjC fans, /but/ ObjC /developers/..." Note the emphasis.
  - jimbokun 13y ago
    "ObjC is a fine language, but when compared to other more modern tools in the same space (C++, Java, C#, D, Go, maybe Haskell, etc...) it really doesn't have much to recommend it." Much simpler than C++. Much more dynamic than any of the languages you mention. Can use straight C anyplace you need performance, with no FFI. Finally has some decent syntax for JSON types (NSDictionary/Array/Number), which some of those languages have and some don't. Performant collection classes. http://ridiculousfish.com/blog/posts/array.html http://ridiculousfish.com/blog/posts/array.html Block syntax (Java famously lacks, those other languages have some equivalent). An outstanding UI library, unfortunately tied to Apple devices. I think Objective-C has stood up brilliantly to the test of time. The potential for Ruby-like flexibility with C-like performance, it's not an accident the software behind Apple's rise to the most valuable company in the world (for a time), was written in Objective-C.
    - yulaow 13y ago
      The apple software is not written in obj-c 'cause it gained traction by developers preference, it is written in obj-c 'cause Steve Jobs, after returning to apple post NeXT experience and buyback, imposed that as the only apple officially supported language.
- bobwaycott 13y ago
  Very few things can be cleanly divided into two groups. Group 3: Those who use it because they like the language itself and would happily target non-Apple platforms if it was a tenable solution.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    I've not encountered any substantial number of people who fit that description.
    - bobwaycott 13y ago
      You just did. Beyond that, encountering a 'substantial number' of them is irrelevant. I've not personally encountered a substantial number of people who like programming in Perl, but it is not inconceivable that such people exist.
      - mikeash 13y ago
        This is why I finished my comment with this sentence: "I'm sure there are exceptions, but not enough for GNUStep to get traction." When we're talking about why GNUStep never took off, "substantial number" is highly relevant.
        bobwaycott 13y ago
        True. But that same sentiment can be communicated without trying to corral developers into two arbitrary groups. There are plenty of other reasons, in addition to the lack of a substantial number of Objective-C (not just iOS) developers. One of the reasons, I think, is a distinct lack of notability for GNUStep. Anyway, this is a pretty silly line of disagreement. :)
        mikeash 13y ago
        But that's exactly what I've observed: nearly all ObjC developers fit into one of those two categories, and that's why roughly nobody wants to bother with GNUStep. I suppose I could have made some different point instead, but I'm generally going to make points about the stuff I've seen.

mikeash 13y ago

Really, I think there are plenty of ObjC fans, but ObjC developers can be divided into two groups: 1. Those who use it unwillingly, and happily use some other environment when not targeting Apple platforms. 2. Those who are big Apple fans and don't see the point of targeting non-Apple platforms in the first place. I'm sure there are exceptions, but not enough for GNUStep to get traction.

zw 13y ago
To me, GNUStep has always been a cool project but cripplingly behind. It's always moved at a glacial pace, even in comparison to Apple's glacial framework development pace. I think your excellent blog posts over time are evidence enough for this - it's always been behind with like Quartz and stuff, and nowadays it has just been slipping further and further. I think its stagnation also got wrapped up in that whole "freedom" wankery after iOS came out.
drivingmenuts 13y ago
IIR, GNUStep has always been a stepchild on Linux, with KDE and Gnome sucking up all the air in the room. The developers are great fans and all, but they are few and far between. By the time iOS rolled around, GNUStep and Obj-C on Linux seemed completely dead and, with no pressing need to write software for a handheld on one platform and a desktop on another, it's stayed that way. GNUStep missed the opportunity to cash in on more people working in Obj-C.
cstejerean 13y ago
I'd love to target non-Apple platforms, but if I don't have the time to work on improving GNUStep. I suspect there are others in this camp. Until GNUStep catches up I'm fine with targeting OS X only if I need to write a native GUI application.
ajross 13y ago
Category #1 doesn't really qualify as a "fan" by any definition I know, unless you similarly talk about people maintaining legacy web sites because there's money in it as "PHP fans". And if category #2 really has total overlap with "ObjC fans" then I think you have a mistaken correlation in your statistics. You're measuring Apple developers, not people particularly enthused with Objective C as a language. I think I agree with what the poster upthread was hinting at: ObjC is a fine language, but when compared to other more modern tools in the same space (C++, Java, C#, D, Go, maybe Haskell, etc...) it really doesn't have much to recommend it. People who tend to be language "fans" have more glittery toys to attract them.
- FireBeyond 13y ago
  "I think there are plenty of ObjC fans, /but/ ObjC /developers/..." Note the emphasis.
- jimbokun 13y ago
  "ObjC is a fine language, but when compared to other more modern tools in the same space (C++, Java, C#, D, Go, maybe Haskell, etc...) it really doesn't have much to recommend it." Much simpler than C++. Much more dynamic than any of the languages you mention. Can use straight C anyplace you need performance, with no FFI. Finally has some decent syntax for JSON types (NSDictionary/Array/Number), which some of those languages have and some don't. Performant collection classes. http://ridiculousfish.com/blog/posts/array.html http://ridiculousfish.com/blog/posts/array.html Block syntax (Java famously lacks, those other languages have some equivalent). An outstanding UI library, unfortunately tied to Apple devices. I think Objective-C has stood up brilliantly to the test of time. The potential for Ruby-like flexibility with C-like performance, it's not an accident the software behind Apple's rise to the most valuable company in the world (for a time), was written in Objective-C.
  - yulaow 13y ago
    The apple software is not written in obj-c 'cause it gained traction by developers preference, it is written in obj-c 'cause Steve Jobs, after returning to apple post NeXT experience and buyback, imposed that as the only apple officially supported language.
bobwaycott 13y ago
Very few things can be cleanly divided into two groups. Group 3: Those who use it because they like the language itself and would happily target non-Apple platforms if it was a tenable solution.
- mikeash 13y ago
  I've not encountered any substantial number of people who fit that description.
  - bobwaycott 13y ago
    You just did. Beyond that, encountering a 'substantial number' of them is irrelevant. I've not personally encountered a substantial number of people who like programming in Perl, but it is not inconceivable that such people exist.
    - mikeash 13y ago
      This is why I finished my comment with this sentence: "I'm sure there are exceptions, but not enough for GNUStep to get traction." When we're talking about why GNUStep never took off, "substantial number" is highly relevant.
      - bobwaycott 13y ago
        True. But that same sentiment can be communicated without trying to corral developers into two arbitrary groups. There are plenty of other reasons, in addition to the lack of a substantial number of Objective-C (not just iOS) developers. One of the reasons, I think, is a distinct lack of notability for GNUStep. Anyway, this is a pretty silly line of disagreement. :)
        mikeash 13y ago
        But that's exactly what I've observed: nearly all ObjC developers fit into one of those two categories, and that's why roughly nobody wants to bother with GNUStep. I suppose I could have made some different point instead, but I'm generally going to make points about the stuff I've seen.