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"Education loans has led to restore[sic] slavery" is one of the most hyperbolic comments I have read on HN. I don't agree that giving students credit secured b

by torkins 13y ago

"Education loans has led to restore[sic] slavery" is one of the most hyperbolic comments I have read on HN. I don't agree that giving students credit secured by future income is equivalent to forcibly converting a free human into the property of another.

TsiCClawOfLight 13y ago
From a generalised european education point of view, I agree with the general sentiment of his comment. It's an hyperbola, but not by that much...
reginaldjcooper 13y ago
Yeah, it's going to take a lot more than debt to come anywhere near equalling slavery. But in fairness, let's note that declaring bankruptcy does not nullify student loans, so it is somewhat like an indentured servitude once you've got them.
speeder 13y ago
I am someone with student debts. For the past 4 years, I mostly worked on what I could, not what I really wanted... Happily, sometimes there was a overlap, but how it is not slavery? I cannot quit. I cannot choose what I will work with (mostly, every time I was without a job, I had to accept whatever offer came by, the few times I tried to be picky I ended even more indebted to buy food). I cannot live where I want... And so on. With some employers, I did feel owned, because even if they did not knew I was in deep debt, they could push me to do whatever they wanted, just with a small treat of dismissal, because I CANNOT afford be dismissed, my debt payment is way above the country average wage, and for the last years I've been living reaching the end of each month slighly indebted or with a zero balance in the bank. I dread the day I suffer some accident, near my home people ignore the red light a lot, and I think if I ever get hit by a car, I don't have money to pay medical expenses. (my parents are also in debt, partly by their incredible education expense they had with me, sometimes taking loans they knew they could not pay just to pay for my schooling). Right now I am co-founder in a startup, and every time our cash starts to run low, conflicts flare up quickly, because the pressure becomes immense, it generates lots of instability, and I already lost two relationships over this (ie: not over having a startup, but having those debts and financial instability and extreme dependance on employers).
- joseflavio 13y ago
  I believe we are really heading for a de facto Wage slavery (mainly now that you can't declare bankruptcy from students debts) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery
  - speeder 13y ago
    I am from Brazil, there is no personal bankrupcty. Also, your debts are inherited, mandatorily, specially if you have spouse, kids, or parents (in the order. if you die, your spouse will get at least 50% of your debts, if you don't have one, then your kids will be forced to take at least 50% of your debts, if you don't have kids, then your parents... the other 50% must be inherited by someone too, but you can choose with your will who will be the unlucky person). And because a side effect of inheritance laws, the government can (although I never heard about it doing it) give your debts to a third cousin even. Also, another thing is that here in Brazil student debts commonly have as collateral the assets of a third party (in fact all sorts of debts here work that way, except for companies), so if I DO fail to pay my debt, then it will pass to my parents, that are already indebted and will certainly fail to pay it, then their stuff will be taken (and I don't have anything to be taken, my 3 most valuable assets are my laptop, my phone, and my glasses). EDIT to joseflavio: Your link is about law in Portugual, not Brazil, note the currency mentioned is Euro, not Reais. EDIT2 to joseflavio: I got curious enough, to see if there is anything analogous in Brazil, and indeed there is, by another name "renuncia". The law (I will skip the non-interesting part) about "renuncia": Art. 1.807. O interessado em que o herdeiro declare se aceita, ou não, a herança, poderá, vinte dias após aberta a sucessão, requerer ao juiz prazo razoável, não maior de trinta dias, para, nele, se pronunciar o herdeiro, sob pena de se haver a herança por aceita. Art. 1.812. São irrevogáveis os atos de aceitação ou de renúncia da herança. Art. 1.813. Quando o herdeiro prejudicar os seus credores, renunciando à herança, poderão eles, com autorização do juiz, aceitá-la em nome do renunciante. § 1o A habilitação dos credores se fará no prazo de trinta dias seguintes ao conhecimento do fato. § 2o Pagas as dívidas do renunciante, prevalece a renúncia quanto ao remanescente, que será devolvido aos demais herdeiros. Thus in short: You have 20 days to renounce your inheritance. If your are inheriting debts and renounce your inheritance, your creditors can sue to force you still inherit the debt and pay them, and after the debt is paid, the "good" parts of the inheritance get successfully renounced and go to someone else, thus attempting to renounce a debt only results in punishment, since you still get the debt, but DON'T get the good parts of the inheritance.

by torkins 13y ago

TsiCClawOfLight 13y ago

From a generalised european education point of view, I agree with the general sentiment of his comment. It's an hyperbola, but not by that much...

reginaldjcooper 13y ago

Yeah, it's going to take a lot more than debt to come anywhere near equalling slavery. But in fairness, let's note that declaring bankruptcy does not nullify student loans, so it is somewhat like an indentured servitude once you've got them.

speeder 13y ago

I am someone with student debts. For the past 4 years, I mostly worked on what I could, not what I really wanted... Happily, sometimes there was a overlap, but how it is not slavery? I cannot quit. I cannot choose what I will work with (mostly, every time I was without a job, I had to accept whatever offer came by, the few times I tried to be picky I ended even more indebted to buy food). I cannot live where I want... And so on. With some employers, I did feel owned, because even if they did not knew I was in deep debt, they could push me to do whatever they wanted, just with a small treat of dismissal, because I CANNOT afford be dismissed, my debt payment is way above the country average wage, and for the last years I've been living reaching the end of each month slighly indebted or with a zero balance in the bank. I dread the day I suffer some accident, near my home people ignore the red light a lot, and I think if I ever get hit by a car, I don't have money to pay medical expenses. (my parents are also in debt, partly by their incredible education expense they had with me, sometimes taking loans they knew they could not pay just to pay for my schooling). Right now I am co-founder in a startup, and every time our cash starts to run low, conflicts flare up quickly, because the pressure becomes immense, it generates lots of instability, and I already lost two relationships over this (ie: not over having a startup, but having those debts and financial instability and extreme dependance on employers).

joseflavio 13y ago
I believe we are really heading for a de facto Wage slavery (mainly now that you can't declare bankruptcy from students debts) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery
- speeder 13y ago
  I am from Brazil, there is no personal bankrupcty. Also, your debts are inherited, mandatorily, specially if you have spouse, kids, or parents (in the order. if you die, your spouse will get at least 50% of your debts, if you don't have one, then your kids will be forced to take at least 50% of your debts, if you don't have kids, then your parents... the other 50% must be inherited by someone too, but you can choose with your will who will be the unlucky person). And because a side effect of inheritance laws, the government can (although I never heard about it doing it) give your debts to a third cousin even. Also, another thing is that here in Brazil student debts commonly have as collateral the assets of a third party (in fact all sorts of debts here work that way, except for companies), so if I DO fail to pay my debt, then it will pass to my parents, that are already indebted and will certainly fail to pay it, then their stuff will be taken (and I don't have anything to be taken, my 3 most valuable assets are my laptop, my phone, and my glasses). EDIT to joseflavio: Your link is about law in Portugual, not Brazil, note the currency mentioned is Euro, not Reais. EDIT2 to joseflavio: I got curious enough, to see if there is anything analogous in Brazil, and indeed there is, by another name "renuncia". The law (I will skip the non-interesting part) about "renuncia": Art. 1.807. O interessado em que o herdeiro declare se aceita, ou não, a herança, poderá, vinte dias após aberta a sucessão, requerer ao juiz prazo razoável, não maior de trinta dias, para, nele, se pronunciar o herdeiro, sob pena de se haver a herança por aceita. Art. 1.812. São irrevogáveis os atos de aceitação ou de renúncia da herança. Art. 1.813. Quando o herdeiro prejudicar os seus credores, renunciando à herança, poderão eles, com autorização do juiz, aceitá-la em nome do renunciante. § 1o A habilitação dos credores se fará no prazo de trinta dias seguintes ao conhecimento do fato. § 2o Pagas as dívidas do renunciante, prevalece a renúncia quanto ao remanescente, que será devolvido aos demais herdeiros. Thus in short: You have 20 days to renounce your inheritance. If your are inheriting debts and renounce your inheritance, your creditors can sue to force you still inherit the debt and pay them, and after the debt is paid, the "good" parts of the inheritance get successfully renounced and go to someone else, thus attempting to renounce a debt only results in punishment, since you still get the debt, but DON'T get the good parts of the inheritance.