7 ms·

And there you have a step-by-step blueprint on how to undermine the efforts of local talent pools to stand out in favor of saving tens of thousands of dollars a

by kenjagi 13y ago

And there you have a step-by-step blueprint on how to undermine the efforts of local talent pools to stand out in favor of saving tens of thousands of dollars and hire an H-1B.

manishsharan 13y ago
I would argue that this is adding to the local talent pool. And where did you get the idea that you save " saving tens of thousands of dollars " by hiring an H-1B ? I originally came to US on H-1B and I can assure you that within months I was among highest paid developers in my company; anything less and I would have walked nextdoor to my next job.
- CaveTech 13y ago
  Would be quite the risky move. You have no guarantee that you'll be granted a new Visa, and if you don't get it then you'll quickly be on your flight home. This can easily be used as leverage against an H1-B Visa holder in most situations.
  - manishsharan 13y ago
    You are wrong. Once you have an H1B -- you do not need a new H1B visa for a new job -- it can be transferred easily to your new employer. There is a grace period of about one month ( maybe more now) and you new employer has to file your paperwork within that time. Been there and done that ! edit: what I meant by transfer is that your new petition is not subject to H1B caps and you don't have to appear before a US embassy right away as one has to for the first time.
    - wavefunction 13y ago
      http://www.immihelp.com/visas/h1b/h1-transfer.html http://www.immihelp.com/visas/h1b/h1-transfer.html This seems to contradict what you're saying.
      - potatolicious 13y ago
        It's a bit more complicated: http://www.hooyou.com/h-1b/h1b_portability.html http://www.hooyou.com/h-1b/h1b_portability.html
      - pavanky 13y ago
        It is a matter of semantics. Once you have an H1B, the new employer does need to make a petition. In immigrant speak, this is usually called a transfer. The transfer does not usually fall under the quotas that the original application falls under. It is also slightly cheaper and is processed more quickly. So an employee can move freely any time they want if the new company is willing to spend a thousand dollars or so.
  - potatolicious 13y ago
    H-1Bs are transferable. There are in fact many companies who specifically mention they will hire H-1B transfers, but not sponsor new applications.
  - untog 13y ago
    It is not risky at all. I have done it two times myself.
  - ojbyrne 13y ago
    I've done it 3 times. It's a little nerve-wracking, but I haven't actually had problems.
  - hpagey 13y ago
    H1bs can be transferred easily. I have transferred it 2 times myself. Once your 140 is filed you can extend H1b 3 years at a time indefinitely until you obtain your GC. So, whats the risk that you talk about? Most of the H1bs that are denied are ones where the candidate work as a consultant (or a body shopper). I have never heard of H1bs of reputed technology companies being denied.
- wavefunction 13y ago
  How does it add to the local talent pool? The visa is given to the company, not the programmer, so it's not like the programmer can suddenly work for another local company. I'm interested to hear your argument about adding to the local talent pool and how you would have just "walked next door" unless the next company had an open h1b position.
  - eshvk 13y ago
    An H1B is transferable to a different company. It is not that hard to do. Of course, if OP was applying for a new H1B, it gets harder.
  - manishsharan 13y ago
    Visa is granted to the foreigner. The employer has to pass some sort of qualifying regulations and job opening must be first offered to residents and citizens. Once the foreigner has the visa , he /she can transfer it to any local qualified job posting. I would also like to point out that an H1b hire should be the last resort for most employers ; there is very little cost savings and the legal fees eats into that. Not to mention that once you hire an H1B , the native employees often feel ill at ease and will typically demand a raise. Team cohesion will be at risk. The H1B hire must have enough talent to justify all the hassle. If an employer just wants to get work done for cheap, they should simply outsource tasks to Elance or oDesk.
    - wavefunction 13y ago
      If the H1B visa was granted to you the individual, you could just go work for a new company without the new company having to sponsor a petition or without you having to file an emergency extension if your employer decided to let you go suddenly. My main point is that the h1B system treats you like a second class resident at the whims of corporations, contrary to its stated claims to just exist to bring in talented individuals to fill positions that cannot otherwise be filled by locals. I certainly agree with the "should" you've posted, but I get contacted by companies looking for people to do PHP for $12 an hour. Sure it's maybe an ok option for some person from another country with more limited opportunities, but it ultimately hurts all of us by weakening our collective bargaining position vs the outsourcers.
auctiontheory 13y ago
Where does it say that the author set out to (or did) "undermine the efforts of local talent pools"? From the pic, it appears to be an otherwise lily-white company. Presumably if they had found the right domestic hire, they would have made it, rather than jump through all H-1B hoops described. He must have been a lot better than their other options. If this hire pushes local talent pools to work hard and do better, isn't that a good thing? If local talent pools expect to get through life on their trust fund, or get a job simply because they're white and US-born, that's not a formula for long-term success (for the country).
pavanky 13y ago
The idea that H-1B workers are paid less is idiotic. Especially if the employee is from Harvard. You may be saving tens of thousands of dollars if you outsource the job, but hiring an employee to work in the USA is different.
- hga 13y ago
  I can say at least anecdotaly it's true. One of my coworkers at Lucent in 2001 was a brilliant Jamaican EE, doing his masters at the same time (had his own MOSIS chip to show off :-), and was arguably better at the job than I was, or at least equal given our various specialties. As mentioned elsewhere, his salary was posted on the bulletin board. It was $48K at the same time I was being paid $80K. $32,000 fits my definition of "tens of thousands of dollars".
  - pavanky 13y ago
    Well shit. Not all companies hire H1Bs just to reduce their operating costs. Sure there are some that may work that way, but given the current demand I haven't seen any of my friends from India working below market value.
- zpk 13y ago
  No its not idiotic, its the truth. There's an entire business model based on the margin. Maybe you heard of one of those companies, Wipro much, Tata much, Infosys much?
  - potatolicious 13y ago
    In what ways do the business models of Wipro, Tata, and Infosys resemble what is being described in the blog post, though? The problem with the H-1B discussion is that H-1Bs are heavily bimodal. You have the highly paid foreign workers that Google, Facebook, et al like to hire. They're paid very handsomely for their work, and generally work in areas where the job market is healthy, giving employers disincentives to abuse their position. Then you have the barely-paid foreign workers that Wipro and Infosys try to bring in, who are legitimately abused by their shitty employers and have their legal status wielded over them as a weapon. The main problem is that nearly everyone involved in the discussion has only seen one side, and vehemently deny that the other side even exists. If your industry experience has been with a lot of the Wipro, Infosys type, you will foam at the mouth about the evils of H-1Bs. If your industry experience has been on the Google/Facebook/Microsoft side, you will patently deny anything bad exists, because in your world it really doesn't. This is also why the H-1B discussions never go anywhere useful. The loudest people in the room are convinced that their reality is the only and complete reality.
eshvk 13y ago
1. H1B salaries are supposed to be competitive and typically posted in your workplace. So you can figure out if you are being undercut by the dirty immigrant coming in. 2. A huge percentage of H1B engineers you will probably interact with went to school here, typically with Masters degrees etc. So I am not convinced their talents as far as writing ruby/$foo language applications are any worse than an equivalent undergrad. In the bay area at least, the term local is a farce. A majority of citizens move here from the rest of the country. As far as a native is concerned, we are all techies driving up the market. Of course, I think the H1B is exploitative in other ways than money. It is indentured labor. I may pay Johnny American and the immigrant the same salaries, but the immigrant once fired needs to find a job the next day or is out of status. The American can go on unemployment etc. The two weeks when my company decided to dither on whether they wanted to layoff people or not was stressful for all. However, the immigrants were the ones who had to decide whether to pack their bags after spending 4-5 years building roots in this country. Also, sure a huge percentage of H1Bs are utilized by software shops based offshore to bring people here on short term projects. This is startup world though. How much of your work are you going to outsource to India?
tzm 13y ago
Rather presumptuous to assume the employer is saving "tens of thousands of dollars" by hiring H-1B. Hiring top talent usually means you hire people smart enough to know the difference. Employers pay market rate. If they don't, then there must be some other consideration at play. We live in a global economy.
levosmetalo 13y ago
Yeah, those dirty immigrant bastards that pay US taxes in the highest rate and don't have any tax allowances. Those spoiled brats whose wives can't legally work. But they are lucky to be allowed to work 80-100 hours a week in order to keep their job and visa status, and to pack up the next day if they get fired. Yeah, you should disallow that. If you push them out, then Joe SixPack would be able to make much more money for writing JS and Ruby code and bring US economy forward.
- zpk 13y ago
  "But they are lucky to be allowed to work 80-100 hours a week in order to keep their job and visa status, and to pack up the next day if they get fired." Wow so off base its funny, that's the blanking problem.
- thetrumanshow 13y ago
  I'm always amazed at the vitrol that comes from the people in the Pro-H1B denomination. You guys sometimes make the Protectionist denomination seem quaint. 1) You SHOULD disallow that. Why tolerate a system that creates incentives for that kind of abuse. 2) "dirty immigrant bastards" - You're assigning a point of view that the commenter isn't advocating at all. Protectionism is generally more about looking into the future and being scared for your ability to continue at your standard of living and less about disliking certain kinds of people. And to add my own anecdote to this discussion without siding with anyone else's viewpoint (because I'm a special snowflake with my own nuanced opinions): I've worked at companies that chronically underpay H1B workers. The ones that got fair pay were the ones that were brave enough to demand it.
  - eshvk 13y ago
    > And to add my own anecdote to this discussion without siding with anyone else's viewpoint (because I'm a special snowflake with my own nuanced opinions): I've worked at companies that chronically underpay H1B workers. The ones that got fair pay were the ones that were brave enough to demand it. That is really a different issue. The law says that there is a baseline salary to be met. Now anything above that is what the employee should be negotiating. There are enough American/women/$minority engineers who get underpaid because they suck at negotiating. That doesn't necessarily mean discrimination exists.
bassboyanon 13y ago
This is not true at all. First of all, it is illegal for a company to pay a H1B employee less than the "standard wage" for the position in question. But leaving legal issues aside, a large proportion of H1B employees have actually completed their education at some of the top schools in the US and around the world. I have seen many of them quickly rise to the top of their teams and compensated more than many in the "local talent pools". Disclaimer: I am another early H1B employee at a startup here, and my company has certainly not saved any money by hiring me instead of a citizen. I like to think that the value I brought in has more than compensated for the extra costs.
sheri 13y ago
I can't believe this comment is at the top of this thread. Ridiculous. > out in favor of saving tens of thousands of dollars and hire an H-1B. What evidence do you have that they saved tens of thousands of dollars with an H1B? They spent over 5000$ in legal fees just trying to get the H1B.
- eshvk 13y ago
  I actually upvoted the comment because this statement comes up again and again. Eventually reasonable arguments float up to the top. My hope is that the responses to the drive-by-attack are read so that people understand how the system works.
- gcb0 13y ago
  h1b here. I get 20-30k year less than my native counterparts. but since it's a big company I'm still in the "salary range for position". If you count my experience and the position i had before, I'm making much less because I'm in a much lower bracket that i would be back home. I know my company spend 10k to sponsor me. Which is peanuts for saying 40k year considering all that. Also, it's very hard for me to look better pay as a native could do. Even the ones making 10k more than i do already left...
  - untog 13y ago
    Well, I am a counter anecdotal example to that. I am here on an H1B and am paid on an equivalent level to my co-workers, slightly higher than some. Without wanting to sound like an asshole here, you are within the salary range for your position- maybe the difference between you and your coworkers is performance based? Why not just get a job elsewhere?
    - gcb0 13y ago
      because after you're married you can't move to a new city every week. Also the other company that wanted to hire me didn't want to go thru the h1b thing. But mostly because I'm still a sucker believing in non written promises.
untog 13y ago
I am sick of seeing this posted on HN every time someone discusses H1B visas. I am here on an H1B, and I am absolutely not underpaid. If anyone is underpaid, they are free to transfer their visa to a new employer that will pay them more. Now, there are shops out there that abuse the system- importing thousands of developers from India and paying them below the market rate. But they are the exception to the rule (and yes, should be shut down) - the company in this post is nothing like that. It's like accusing everyone that takes disability benefit of being a fraud.

by kenjagi 13y ago

And there you have a step-by-step blueprint on how to undermine the efforts of local talent pools to stand out in favor of saving tens of thousands of dollars and hire an H-1B.

manishsharan 13y ago

I would argue that this is adding to the local talent pool. And where did you get the idea that you save " saving tens of thousands of dollars " by hiring an H-1B ? I originally came to US on H-1B and I can assure you that within months I was among highest paid developers in my company; anything less and I would have walked nextdoor to my next job.

CaveTech 13y ago
Would be quite the risky move. You have no guarantee that you'll be granted a new Visa, and if you don't get it then you'll quickly be on your flight home. This can easily be used as leverage against an H1-B Visa holder in most situations.
- manishsharan 13y ago
  You are wrong. Once you have an H1B -- you do not need a new H1B visa for a new job -- it can be transferred easily to your new employer. There is a grace period of about one month ( maybe more now) and you new employer has to file your paperwork within that time. Been there and done that ! edit: what I meant by transfer is that your new petition is not subject to H1B caps and you don't have to appear before a US embassy right away as one has to for the first time.
  - wavefunction 13y ago
    http://www.immihelp.com/visas/h1b/h1-transfer.html http://www.immihelp.com/visas/h1b/h1-transfer.html This seems to contradict what you're saying.
    - potatolicious 13y ago
      It's a bit more complicated: http://www.hooyou.com/h-1b/h1b_portability.html http://www.hooyou.com/h-1b/h1b_portability.html
    - pavanky 13y ago
      It is a matter of semantics. Once you have an H1B, the new employer does need to make a petition. In immigrant speak, this is usually called a transfer. The transfer does not usually fall under the quotas that the original application falls under. It is also slightly cheaper and is processed more quickly. So an employee can move freely any time they want if the new company is willing to spend a thousand dollars or so.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  H-1Bs are transferable. There are in fact many companies who specifically mention they will hire H-1B transfers, but not sponsor new applications.
- untog 13y ago
  It is not risky at all. I have done it two times myself.
- ojbyrne 13y ago
  I've done it 3 times. It's a little nerve-wracking, but I haven't actually had problems.
- hpagey 13y ago
  H1bs can be transferred easily. I have transferred it 2 times myself. Once your 140 is filed you can extend H1b 3 years at a time indefinitely until you obtain your GC. So, whats the risk that you talk about? Most of the H1bs that are denied are ones where the candidate work as a consultant (or a body shopper). I have never heard of H1bs of reputed technology companies being denied.
wavefunction 13y ago
How does it add to the local talent pool? The visa is given to the company, not the programmer, so it's not like the programmer can suddenly work for another local company. I'm interested to hear your argument about adding to the local talent pool and how you would have just "walked next door" unless the next company had an open h1b position.
- eshvk 13y ago
  An H1B is transferable to a different company. It is not that hard to do. Of course, if OP was applying for a new H1B, it gets harder.
- manishsharan 13y ago
  Visa is granted to the foreigner. The employer has to pass some sort of qualifying regulations and job opening must be first offered to residents and citizens. Once the foreigner has the visa , he /she can transfer it to any local qualified job posting. I would also like to point out that an H1b hire should be the last resort for most employers ; there is very little cost savings and the legal fees eats into that. Not to mention that once you hire an H1B , the native employees often feel ill at ease and will typically demand a raise. Team cohesion will be at risk. The H1B hire must have enough talent to justify all the hassle. If an employer just wants to get work done for cheap, they should simply outsource tasks to Elance or oDesk.
  - wavefunction 13y ago
    If the H1B visa was granted to you the individual, you could just go work for a new company without the new company having to sponsor a petition or without you having to file an emergency extension if your employer decided to let you go suddenly. My main point is that the h1B system treats you like a second class resident at the whims of corporations, contrary to its stated claims to just exist to bring in talented individuals to fill positions that cannot otherwise be filled by locals. I certainly agree with the "should" you've posted, but I get contacted by companies looking for people to do PHP for $12 an hour. Sure it's maybe an ok option for some person from another country with more limited opportunities, but it ultimately hurts all of us by weakening our collective bargaining position vs the outsourcers.

auctiontheory 13y ago

Where does it say that the author set out to (or did) "undermine the efforts of local talent pools"? From the pic, it appears to be an otherwise lily-white company. Presumably if they had found the right domestic hire, they would have made it, rather than jump through all H-1B hoops described. He must have been a lot better than their other options. If this hire pushes local talent pools to work hard and do better, isn't that a good thing? If local talent pools expect to get through life on their trust fund, or get a job simply because they're white and US-born, that's not a formula for long-term success (for the country).

pavanky 13y ago

The idea that H-1B workers are paid less is idiotic. Especially if the employee is from Harvard. You may be saving tens of thousands of dollars if you outsource the job, but hiring an employee to work in the USA is different.

hga 13y ago
I can say at least anecdotaly it's true. One of my coworkers at Lucent in 2001 was a brilliant Jamaican EE, doing his masters at the same time (had his own MOSIS chip to show off :-), and was arguably better at the job than I was, or at least equal given our various specialties. As mentioned elsewhere, his salary was posted on the bulletin board. It was $48K at the same time I was being paid $80K. $32,000 fits my definition of "tens of thousands of dollars".
- pavanky 13y ago
  Well shit. Not all companies hire H1Bs just to reduce their operating costs. Sure there are some that may work that way, but given the current demand I haven't seen any of my friends from India working below market value.
zpk 13y ago
No its not idiotic, its the truth. There's an entire business model based on the margin. Maybe you heard of one of those companies, Wipro much, Tata much, Infosys much?
- potatolicious 13y ago
  In what ways do the business models of Wipro, Tata, and Infosys resemble what is being described in the blog post, though? The problem with the H-1B discussion is that H-1Bs are heavily bimodal. You have the highly paid foreign workers that Google, Facebook, et al like to hire. They're paid very handsomely for their work, and generally work in areas where the job market is healthy, giving employers disincentives to abuse their position. Then you have the barely-paid foreign workers that Wipro and Infosys try to bring in, who are legitimately abused by their shitty employers and have their legal status wielded over them as a weapon. The main problem is that nearly everyone involved in the discussion has only seen one side, and vehemently deny that the other side even exists. If your industry experience has been with a lot of the Wipro, Infosys type, you will foam at the mouth about the evils of H-1Bs. If your industry experience has been on the Google/Facebook/Microsoft side, you will patently deny anything bad exists, because in your world it really doesn't. This is also why the H-1B discussions never go anywhere useful. The loudest people in the room are convinced that their reality is the only and complete reality.

eshvk 13y ago

1. H1B salaries are supposed to be competitive and typically posted in your workplace. So you can figure out if you are being undercut by the dirty immigrant coming in. 2. A huge percentage of H1B engineers you will probably interact with went to school here, typically with Masters degrees etc. So I am not convinced their talents as far as writing ruby/$foo language applications are any worse than an equivalent undergrad. In the bay area at least, the term local is a farce. A majority of citizens move here from the rest of the country. As far as a native is concerned, we are all techies driving up the market. Of course, I think the H1B is exploitative in other ways than money. It is indentured labor. I may pay Johnny American and the immigrant the same salaries, but the immigrant once fired needs to find a job the next day or is out of status. The American can go on unemployment etc. The two weeks when my company decided to dither on whether they wanted to layoff people or not was stressful for all. However, the immigrants were the ones who had to decide whether to pack their bags after spending 4-5 years building roots in this country. Also, sure a huge percentage of H1Bs are utilized by software shops based offshore to bring people here on short term projects. This is startup world though. How much of your work are you going to outsource to India?

tzm 13y ago

Rather presumptuous to assume the employer is saving "tens of thousands of dollars" by hiring H-1B. Hiring top talent usually means you hire people smart enough to know the difference. Employers pay market rate. If they don't, then there must be some other consideration at play. We live in a global economy.

levosmetalo 13y ago

Yeah, those dirty immigrant bastards that pay US taxes in the highest rate and don't have any tax allowances. Those spoiled brats whose wives can't legally work. But they are lucky to be allowed to work 80-100 hours a week in order to keep their job and visa status, and to pack up the next day if they get fired. Yeah, you should disallow that. If you push them out, then Joe SixPack would be able to make much more money for writing JS and Ruby code and bring US economy forward.

zpk 13y ago
"But they are lucky to be allowed to work 80-100 hours a week in order to keep their job and visa status, and to pack up the next day if they get fired." Wow so off base its funny, that's the blanking problem.
thetrumanshow 13y ago
I'm always amazed at the vitrol that comes from the people in the Pro-H1B denomination. You guys sometimes make the Protectionist denomination seem quaint. 1) You SHOULD disallow that. Why tolerate a system that creates incentives for that kind of abuse. 2) "dirty immigrant bastards" - You're assigning a point of view that the commenter isn't advocating at all. Protectionism is generally more about looking into the future and being scared for your ability to continue at your standard of living and less about disliking certain kinds of people. And to add my own anecdote to this discussion without siding with anyone else's viewpoint (because I'm a special snowflake with my own nuanced opinions): I've worked at companies that chronically underpay H1B workers. The ones that got fair pay were the ones that were brave enough to demand it.
- eshvk 13y ago
  > And to add my own anecdote to this discussion without siding with anyone else's viewpoint (because I'm a special snowflake with my own nuanced opinions): I've worked at companies that chronically underpay H1B workers. The ones that got fair pay were the ones that were brave enough to demand it. That is really a different issue. The law says that there is a baseline salary to be met. Now anything above that is what the employee should be negotiating. There are enough American/women/$minority engineers who get underpaid because they suck at negotiating. That doesn't necessarily mean discrimination exists.

bassboyanon 13y ago

This is not true at all. First of all, it is illegal for a company to pay a H1B employee less than the "standard wage" for the position in question. But leaving legal issues aside, a large proportion of H1B employees have actually completed their education at some of the top schools in the US and around the world. I have seen many of them quickly rise to the top of their teams and compensated more than many in the "local talent pools". Disclaimer: I am another early H1B employee at a startup here, and my company has certainly not saved any money by hiring me instead of a citizen. I like to think that the value I brought in has more than compensated for the extra costs.

sheri 13y ago

I can't believe this comment is at the top of this thread. Ridiculous. > out in favor of saving tens of thousands of dollars and hire an H-1B. What evidence do you have that they saved tens of thousands of dollars with an H1B? They spent over 5000$ in legal fees just trying to get the H1B.

eshvk 13y ago
I actually upvoted the comment because this statement comes up again and again. Eventually reasonable arguments float up to the top. My hope is that the responses to the drive-by-attack are read so that people understand how the system works.
gcb0 13y ago
h1b here. I get 20-30k year less than my native counterparts. but since it's a big company I'm still in the "salary range for position". If you count my experience and the position i had before, I'm making much less because I'm in a much lower bracket that i would be back home. I know my company spend 10k to sponsor me. Which is peanuts for saying 40k year considering all that. Also, it's very hard for me to look better pay as a native could do. Even the ones making 10k more than i do already left...
- untog 13y ago
  Well, I am a counter anecdotal example to that. I am here on an H1B and am paid on an equivalent level to my co-workers, slightly higher than some. Without wanting to sound like an asshole here, you are within the salary range for your position- maybe the difference between you and your coworkers is performance based? Why not just get a job elsewhere?
  - gcb0 13y ago
    because after you're married you can't move to a new city every week. Also the other company that wanted to hire me didn't want to go thru the h1b thing. But mostly because I'm still a sucker believing in non written promises.

untog 13y ago

I am sick of seeing this posted on HN every time someone discusses H1B visas. I am here on an H1B, and I am absolutely not underpaid. If anyone is underpaid, they are free to transfer their visa to a new employer that will pay them more. Now, there are shops out there that abuse the system- importing thousands of developers from India and paying them below the market rate. But they are the exception to the rule (and yes, should be shut down) - the company in this post is nothing like that. It's like accusing everyone that takes disability benefit of being a fraud.