6 ms·

Why is "passport" in quotes? What real armed obedient guys on the border?

• snitko 13y ago
  Ask yourself, why does the state require you to have a passport to travel? Why can't you just go wherever you want without it? Passports don't seem to stop bad guys from doing bad things.
• oleganza 13y ago
  Because passport is just a piece of paper (or a record in a database) that armed dudes called "border control policemen" are asking for to let you go. And if you don't have one, they'll point a gun on you. Make a thought experiment what would happen if you try to peacefully move to another country without a passport.
• nknighthb 13y ago
  It's Randroid rhetoric. Their entire worldview circles around the perceived evil men with guns who control our lives.
  • oleganza 13y ago
    It's a deep denial of the reality when you say that. Both my and your lives are 95% peaceful anarchy - we voluntarily interact with who we want and ignore people we dislike or disapprove of. The remaining 5% - is when some dudes in costumes brainwash us to comply with a well-hidden gun. Try to "disagree" by not paying your taxes and see what happens.
    • nknighthb 13y ago
      Why would I ever not pay my taxes? I have no desire to harm society. That you require the threat of a gun to pay your taxes is scary.
      • oleganza 13y ago
        Society != government.
        • nknighthb 13y ago
          An assertion I disagree with.
          • oleganza 13y ago
            If you feel that you don't get enough of gov "care" when someone doesn't pay taxes, it means you are personally entitled to that amount that he didn't pay, right? If you feel you are personally entitled, will you consider it moral to come and get what's yours? Will you allow other citizens to do so towards you? About income tax: imagine I work an hour and sell some artwork to a friend. How did this affect anyone on the planet so that government is entitled for an income tax from what my friend gave me? If I tell you about that transaction, will you consider it moral and good to report it to IRS? Will you do that to any of your friends, or only people you don't like much?
            • nknighthb 13y ago
              Blindly equating the actions of society and the actions of individuals is at the heart of the problem with your worldview, and one of the many reasons I disagree with it.
      • lgbr 13y ago
        That you might pay your taxes voluntarily is charming, but do you really think that if all enforcement behind tax collection is lost that most of the population will pay their taxes?
        • nknighthb 13y ago
          Enforcement of laws does not require threat of violence except against those who threaten violence in response to enforcement. Wage garnishment, liens, and asset forfeiture are effective means of collecting sums owed without anybody pointing a gun. Even if you are arrested for tax evasion, violence will not be used unless you appear to pose a threat. All I hear when someone talks about how laws are enforced with guns is "I am civilized only so long as someone has the capacity to be more violent than I.". To me, this is madness.
    • rdouble 13y ago
      What happens when you don't pay your taxes is that a couple years later you get mail that says please pay your taxes.
      • oleganza 13y ago
        And then? Does government ever say "oh, nevermind"? After a couple of notices your bank account will be frozen, or your passport "revoked" etc.
        • rdouble 13y ago
          If you never intend to pay your taxes the government can garnish your wages. The individual state governments are far more vigilant about this than the federal government, however. California will dip into your Wells Fargo account almost immediately but one can not pay federal taxes for quite some time. You occasionally hear about some celebrity or fiancier getting busted for not paying their taxes for the past 20 years. Your passport is never revoked, though. Congress has tried to get a bill to do that but it has never passed. Certainly "men with guns" do not show up at your house if you miss the April 15 deadline as seems to be suggested in these ridiculous discussions. This is a country where at least half of the government officials themselves also hate taxes and dodge them as much as possible.
  • snitko 13y ago
    Please come visit Russia without a passport or maybe ask people to come visit US without one. You'll see how fast those guns can become real. They won't even let you out of the country if you don't have a passport, which, of course, only a government can issue.
    • nknighthb 13y ago
      Guns are necessary only because there exist violent sociopaths who will use force to avoid obeying the rules human society has set down. That you fear them implies you are exactly the kind of person the rules are intended to protect us from.
      • snitko 13y ago
        Why do you want protection from me? I have not given a slightest hint I want to harm anyone in any way and I don't like violence. Why would I fear rules? I fear people who want to randomly enforce those rules, justifying by them anything they want to justify, while themselves avoiding the rules they created for us. Besides, it is exactly high ranking government jobs that attract sociopaths, because it becomes really easy to do anything with very little accountability.
        • nknighthb 13y ago
          The guns are not to be used against you unless you are violent. You imply you obey laws only because there are men with guns. This indicates you will use violence to avoid obeying laws. That is why I need protection from you.
          • snitko 13y ago
            No, I obey some laws because there are men with guns and I obey others because I think it's a good idea to. For instance, I pay taxes or obtain visas to other countries because otherwise officials are going to make my life difficult if I don't do that. On the other hand, I don't steal from or hurt people because I don't like it and consider it immoral.
• JanezStupar 13y ago
  Sovereign. Or representatives thereof. First and most important attribute of a sovereign is monopoly over violence throughout the specific sovereignty. No guns no sovereignty. Thats how it goes.
  • oleganza 13y ago
    "Sovereignity" is just a word. I can also use it to proclaim me and my friends individually "sovereign" so no aggression against them is justified. May you tell me how violence is justified in your eyes when person voluntarily pays for a flight, then pays for a taxi and goes outside the airport without a passport?
    • JanezStupar 13y ago
      Sovereignity is a concept. Whether you want to use this word or another is irrelevant. As I said in my post the first and mandatory requirement for one to be sovereign is to have a monopoly upon violance within particular geographic region. What you declare is absolutely irrelevant. You are sovereign if and only if you are firstly capable of defending yoursef from harm and second unleashing harm upon others within this teritory. There need not be any justification for violence beyond whim of the sovereign. So if you walk outside the airport against sovereigns will, local sovereign may do harm unto you. And it has absolutely nothing to do with morality.