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I think that this... > One of the most admirable things about hackers is their ability to accomplish great things without - or in spite of government. ...

by glesica 13y ago

I think that this... > One of the most admirable things about hackers is their ability to accomplish great things without - or in spite of government. ... is really a pretty sad, small statement. If anything, government is of more importance to us because it is the hacker mentality itself that is under attack right now. The reason, I think, that so many of the recent issues have salience with this community is that what various governments are trying to do is to shut down disruptive economic and social activities, the lifeblood of the hacker community, in order to protect entrenched and well-connected interests. At some point we all have to stop saying "well I'm a {baker, hacker, librarian, truck driver,...}, why should I worry about these problems?" and realize that this is world-altering stuff happening, and if you want your little corner of the world to survive, you have to mobilize to protect it, even if that means doing a little less of the things you normally do. So I'm OK with more political posts, as long as something actually comes from the emotions they generate. Frankly, I've noticed a change in myself. Twelve months ago I didn't care one bit about cryptography and networking, they were just useful plumbing that worked (or didn't). But now I'm moving to learn more about these topics because of recent events and a desire to at least better understand what is happening. HN was partially responsible for this shift in my attitudes, so good on you guys!

adventured 13y ago
I agree with this. I don't think an observant hacker can just sit back and pretend it's 1995, and that what's going on isn't going on. A lot of freedom that was taken for granted is under rapid encroachment by the US Government and other foreign governments as well. That includes the vast intrusion upon privacy online by the NSA. People that work in technology need to be very politically active right now (I'd say hackers, but it's so much more broad than that). Tech is one of the few segments of the US economy still doing very well, there's a lot of money there, and politicians listen to money; it buys influence (as sad as that may be). Let this opportunity to push back against the abuses going on slip, and it might be a generation or more before another good chance exists, as abuses today become accepted norms tomorrow. That all having been said. I think HN needs a strong balance against junk political discussions. Leave all of that to HuffingtonPost or thehill or Politico and so on. That is, it's the difference between having discussions about Anthony Weiner, and the NSA issue/s.
kjackson2012 13y ago
Exactly. Technology and especially things like cryptography and hacking, can potentially get you thrown in jail again, after a decade of peace. Does anyone even remember the immense legal problems that Phil Zimmermann had with releasing PGP? What about Kevin Mitnick? They put Mitnick in solitary confinement for years because the US government convinced a judge that "he had the ability to start a nuclear war by whistling into a pay phone" (as per Wikipedia). Guys, this is what we're dealing with, except now we have Guantanomo Bay where US citizens can be thrown into indefinitely with no due process for potentially being a terrorist. Are we bound to repeat the same mistakes again, because a generation of "hackers" don't want to educate themselves on the importance of politics and concepts like "freedom"? Or is all you want to do is sit back, and fantasize that you will create the next Facebook, and you won't have to care about things like freedom, the Constitution, etc?
- twoodfin 13y ago
  Guys, this is what we're dealing with, except now we have Guantanomo Bay where US citizens can be thrown into indefinitely with no due process for potentially being a terrorist. It's just this kind of hyperbolic nonsense that is polluting the discussion here. A modern day Mitnick could not be "thrown into Guantanamo Bay" for "potentially being a terrorist". That would require the system to have broken down far, far more than it actually has, and indeed if it were that screwed up, anything we "hackers" on hn could do about it would likely be too little, too late. One important skill engineers require is the ability to see the world as it is, and craft an appropriate solution. Maybe there's a certain thrill to imagining that "Big Brother" is here and we can band together to rebel against him, but that's a romantic fantasy, not reality.
  - glesica 13y ago
    I will grant that the specific mention of Guantanamo is a little off. AFAIK there aren't any US citizens there. On the other hand, Bradley Manning has spent, what, two years being tortured (solitary confinement, forced nudity, sleep deprivation). Is it so unreasonable to think that Mitnick might have been subject to similar treatment today? Additionally, the US has actually extra-judicially executed at least one US citizen abroad. It also isn't entirely crazy (IMHO) to think that an appropriately "scary" "hacker" might be declared a terrorist and violently suppressed.
centrinoblue 13y ago
Agreed. Technology is having such a profound effect on the bigger political picture that, as technologists, I think it's important that we, as a community, are both sharing the information but also figuring out what to do about it. I appreciate the political posts here primarily because hackers seem to be less afraid to post about and discuss some of the more awkward political events happening right now so there is more candid and open information sharing.

by glesica 13y ago

adventured 13y ago

I agree with this. I don't think an observant hacker can just sit back and pretend it's 1995, and that what's going on isn't going on. A lot of freedom that was taken for granted is under rapid encroachment by the US Government and other foreign governments as well. That includes the vast intrusion upon privacy online by the NSA. People that work in technology need to be very politically active right now (I'd say hackers, but it's so much more broad than that). Tech is one of the few segments of the US economy still doing very well, there's a lot of money there, and politicians listen to money; it buys influence (as sad as that may be). Let this opportunity to push back against the abuses going on slip, and it might be a generation or more before another good chance exists, as abuses today become accepted norms tomorrow. That all having been said. I think HN needs a strong balance against junk political discussions. Leave all of that to HuffingtonPost or thehill or Politico and so on. That is, it's the difference between having discussions about Anthony Weiner, and the NSA issue/s.

kjackson2012 13y ago

Exactly. Technology and especially things like cryptography and hacking, can potentially get you thrown in jail again, after a decade of peace. Does anyone even remember the immense legal problems that Phil Zimmermann had with releasing PGP? What about Kevin Mitnick? They put Mitnick in solitary confinement for years because the US government convinced a judge that "he had the ability to start a nuclear war by whistling into a pay phone" (as per Wikipedia). Guys, this is what we're dealing with, except now we have Guantanomo Bay where US citizens can be thrown into indefinitely with no due process for potentially being a terrorist. Are we bound to repeat the same mistakes again, because a generation of "hackers" don't want to educate themselves on the importance of politics and concepts like "freedom"? Or is all you want to do is sit back, and fantasize that you will create the next Facebook, and you won't have to care about things like freedom, the Constitution, etc?

twoodfin 13y ago
Guys, this is what we're dealing with, except now we have Guantanomo Bay where US citizens can be thrown into indefinitely with no due process for potentially being a terrorist. It's just this kind of hyperbolic nonsense that is polluting the discussion here. A modern day Mitnick could not be "thrown into Guantanamo Bay" for "potentially being a terrorist". That would require the system to have broken down far, far more than it actually has, and indeed if it were that screwed up, anything we "hackers" on hn could do about it would likely be too little, too late. One important skill engineers require is the ability to see the world as it is, and craft an appropriate solution. Maybe there's a certain thrill to imagining that "Big Brother" is here and we can band together to rebel against him, but that's a romantic fantasy, not reality.
- glesica 13y ago
  I will grant that the specific mention of Guantanamo is a little off. AFAIK there aren't any US citizens there. On the other hand, Bradley Manning has spent, what, two years being tortured (solitary confinement, forced nudity, sleep deprivation). Is it so unreasonable to think that Mitnick might have been subject to similar treatment today? Additionally, the US has actually extra-judicially executed at least one US citizen abroad. It also isn't entirely crazy (IMHO) to think that an appropriately "scary" "hacker" might be declared a terrorist and violently suppressed.

centrinoblue 13y ago

Agreed. Technology is having such a profound effect on the bigger political picture that, as technologists, I think it's important that we, as a community, are both sharing the information but also figuring out what to do about it. I appreciate the political posts here primarily because hackers seem to be less afraid to post about and discuss some of the more awkward political events happening right now so there is more candid and open information sharing.