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I would argue that he is a full-time slave. Part of his time goes to pay for his previous marriage, the other part for taxes, and the final part to the banking

I would argue that he is a full-time slave. Part of his time goes to pay for his previous marriage, the other part for taxes, and the final part to the banking system.

HSO 17y ago
Funny how the notion of simply paying back your debt becomes "enslavement" by the "banking system" in the minds of people these days. t's as ridiculous as a fat person blaming the food companies to make it easy to overeat. The author of the article is commendable for avoiding these loaded terms and blaming himself rather than circumstances or even other people. It's a trite phrase but still true that responsibility and prudence is the flipside of freedom and risk-taking.
- asciilifeform 17y ago
  > Funny how the notion of simply paying back your debt becomes "enslavement" Yeah, let's bring back Victorian work-houses. I sincerely hope that you and your family end up in one.
- quellhorst 17y ago
  Oh, but if you get a loan at 10% or 15% interest and are late on a different loan you can get a universal default where your rate is doubled to 20 or 30%. Also the credit card companies have successfully lobbied the government to make it harder for consumers to erase these debts with bankruptcy.
jrockway 17y ago
The difference is, except for taxes, he chose to make those decisions. Slaves did not choose to be slaves.
- anshul 17y ago
  That difference is mostly irrelevant. Slavery entered into with consent is still slavery. The key part of slavery is not the path of entry, but the path of exit, in that you don't get to exit. There is very little functional difference between this guy and a bonded laborer from pre-independence India.
  - Empact 17y ago
    Would the laborer have been transported, on such a long voyage, without the reasonable assurance of payback? If they'd been left behind, stranded far away from the "land of opportunity," would they have been better off? I'd guess no on both. There's a reason immigrants flocked to America, event with a pledge of service. So quit with this slavery nonsense. Slavery is not slavery when opted for, in full knowledge. Likewise, honest mortgages are no more slavery than education loans.
    - anshul 17y ago
      You are suggesting that available of opportunity and future outcome make slavery ok. I do not believe that. I guess we just have fundamentally different world views. Honest mortgages and education loans are not slavery. Intentionally ignoring checks to economically subjugate someone... I am not gonna call that slavery but it's really not that far from it or at least thats how I see it.
      - randallsquared 17y ago
        > You are suggesting that available of opportunity and future outcome make slavery ok. No, he's suggesting that consent makes a situation that looks like slavery not slavery at all.
        anshul 17y ago
        Ooops... availability* My bad... Anyway, what has > If they'd been left behind, stranded far away from the "land of opportunity," would they have been better off? got to do with consent? That apart, informed consent cannot nullify a crime. That is a well accepted principle. You cannot give informed consent for murder and such stuff. There is a libertarian school of thought that wants to change that but I don't subscribe to that school of thought. Slavery under consent is just as much a violation of human dignity and just as much a crime as far as my views are concerned.
        17y ago
- asciilifeform 17y ago
  > Slaves did not choose to be slaves. Quite often false, in the ancient world. Debt slavery is probably as old as mankind.

I would argue that he is a full-time slave. Part of his time goes to pay for his previous marriage, the other part for taxes, and the final part to the banking system.

HSO 17y ago

Funny how the notion of simply paying back your debt becomes "enslavement" by the "banking system" in the minds of people these days. t's as ridiculous as a fat person blaming the food companies to make it easy to overeat. The author of the article is commendable for avoiding these loaded terms and blaming himself rather than circumstances or even other people. It's a trite phrase but still true that responsibility and prudence is the flipside of freedom and risk-taking.

asciilifeform 17y ago
> Funny how the notion of simply paying back your debt becomes "enslavement" Yeah, let's bring back Victorian work-houses. I sincerely hope that you and your family end up in one.
quellhorst 17y ago
Oh, but if you get a loan at 10% or 15% interest and are late on a different loan you can get a universal default where your rate is doubled to 20 or 30%. Also the credit card companies have successfully lobbied the government to make it harder for consumers to erase these debts with bankruptcy.

jrockway 17y ago

The difference is, except for taxes, he chose to make those decisions. Slaves did not choose to be slaves.

anshul 17y ago
That difference is mostly irrelevant. Slavery entered into with consent is still slavery. The key part of slavery is not the path of entry, but the path of exit, in that you don't get to exit. There is very little functional difference between this guy and a bonded laborer from pre-independence India.
- Empact 17y ago
  Would the laborer have been transported, on such a long voyage, without the reasonable assurance of payback? If they'd been left behind, stranded far away from the "land of opportunity," would they have been better off? I'd guess no on both. There's a reason immigrants flocked to America, event with a pledge of service. So quit with this slavery nonsense. Slavery is not slavery when opted for, in full knowledge. Likewise, honest mortgages are no more slavery than education loans.
  - anshul 17y ago
    You are suggesting that available of opportunity and future outcome make slavery ok. I do not believe that. I guess we just have fundamentally different world views. Honest mortgages and education loans are not slavery. Intentionally ignoring checks to economically subjugate someone... I am not gonna call that slavery but it's really not that far from it or at least thats how I see it.
    - randallsquared 17y ago
      > You are suggesting that available of opportunity and future outcome make slavery ok. No, he's suggesting that consent makes a situation that looks like slavery not slavery at all.
      - anshul 17y ago
        Ooops... availability* My bad... Anyway, what has > If they'd been left behind, stranded far away from the "land of opportunity," would they have been better off? got to do with consent? That apart, informed consent cannot nullify a crime. That is a well accepted principle. You cannot give informed consent for murder and such stuff. There is a libertarian school of thought that wants to change that but I don't subscribe to that school of thought. Slavery under consent is just as much a violation of human dignity and just as much a crime as far as my views are concerned.
        17y ago
asciilifeform 17y ago
> Slaves did not choose to be slaves. Quite often false, in the ancient world. Debt slavery is probably as old as mankind.