13 ms·

The Financial Times on Edward Tufte

113 points by DanielRibeiro 13y ago

eshvk 13y ago
Edward Tufte says Bret Victor [1] is someone to watch out for. I am curious: can someone who is into usability look at the site and comment on whether this is considered usable? I mean his site is incredibly innovative and beautiful. However, I find it kind of hard to navigate? [1] http://worrydream.com/ http://worrydream.com/
- guywithabike 13y ago
  It's not about the website, it's about the content. If you read the articles, I think you'll be suitably blown away. Example: http://worrydream.com/#!2/LadderOfAbstraction http://worrydream.com/#!2/LadderOfAbstraction
  - eshvk 13y ago
    Oh no, I am impressed. The guy is as close as one can come to be a modern renaissance man. The website is also a statement of art and I was curious how it came across from a usability perspective.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
- asselinpaul 13y ago
  Watch his presentations, they are incredibly inspiring and impressive. https://vimeo.com/36579366 https://vimeo.com/36579366 https://vimeo.com/64895205 https://vimeo.com/64895205 https://vimeo.com/66085662 https://vimeo.com/66085662 All are required viewing for the HN crowd.
- rossjudson 13y ago
  I'm sad that Apple took a couple of years of Bret's innovation and locked it away. Thanks, Apple. I couldn't agree more with ET's two choices. Mike Bostock is a machine. He's produced a lifetime's worth of awesome work, and he's just getting started.
- DanielRibeiro 13y ago
  Bret Victor, who has been inspired[1] by Doug Engelbart, has showcased plenty of innovative ways on design/user interaction on his presentations/writtings: * Magic Ink[2] * Stop Drawing Dead Fish[3] * Drawing Dynamic Visualizations[4] * Media for Thinking the Unthinkable[5] * LearnableProgramming[6] * Inventing on Principle[7] [1] http://worrydream.com/Engelbart/ http://worrydream.com/Engelbart/ [2] http://worrydream.com/#!/MagicInk http://worrydream.com/#!/MagicInk [3] http://vimeo.com/64895205 http://vimeo.com/64895205 [4] http://vimeo.com/66085662 http://vimeo.com/66085662 [5] http://vimeo.com/67076984 http://vimeo.com/67076984 [6] http://worrydream.com/LearnableProgramming/ http://worrydream.com/LearnableProgramming/ [7] http://vimeo.com/36579366 http://vimeo.com/36579366
hrabago 13y ago
I've put in a request to my boss to attend his one day seminar last year. However, recent reviews of attendees say his views haven't caught up with modern times and he just sticks to visualization techniques from years ago.
- thrush 13y ago
  I recommend getting his books, or just The Visual Display of Information (http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/books_vdqi http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/books_vdqi) if you don't want to go a seminar.
  - haberman 13y ago
    Just to put in a contrary opinion, I was really disappointed in this book and I don't understand the praise it gets. Here's my extensive review on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/review/R11NYC3OE3LBE http://www.amazon.com/review/R11NYC3OE3LBE
    - Silhouette 13y ago
      Personally, I came to very different conclusions. I found the book thought-provoking, and while your criticisms seem to be factually accurate, so was the original material you were criticising in each case I checked. I am upvoting you anyway, because we should never take things for granted just because someone famous said them, and because I appreciate that you took the time to make a careful and reasonable argument even if I personally disagree with it.
      - haberman 13y ago
        I am really curious to know what you took from this book. I am really confused about why people like it so much. For example, do you like Tufte's box plot? Do you like his revised bar chart? Do you strive, in your own graphs, to "erase redundant data-ink" in the way that Tufte advocates?
        13y ago
didgeoridoo 13y ago
Well that nearly gave me a heart attack. I thought for a moment that this was an obituary. Hope he sticks with us for a long time.
- vidarh 13y ago
  My reaction too. That's a rather odd way of presenting an article.
- taggart 13y ago
  Yes, a very poorly chosen title.
yannis 13y ago
For anyone wishing to emulate Tufte's style in books using LaTeX, http://www.ctan.org/pkg/tufte-latex http://www.ctan.org/pkg/tufte-latex.
danso 13y ago
In the five years that I've practiced data visualization and analysis, the day-long Tufte seminar that my boss sent me to was likely the most important single day of my development career. Tufte has virtually nothing to say about how visualization should be done off paper, but his general principles are invaluable. I was still making annoying Flash charts at the time, shortly after attending Tufte's workshop, I realized how much of an anti-pattern it is to rely heavily on button-pushing and on-hovers. It's true that Tufte's pioneering work was done in the age of paper, but that simplicity and clarity of purpose is even in greater need today. (And I'll also say, Jesus Christ this submitted headline made me fear that he was dead) Edit: I can't avoid saying that some of the more contemporary ideas he's really into are sometimes a little boring compared to his data visualization ideas...if you live in New York, Tufte has a gallery of art that he's done and space devoted to others' ideas...I thought the documentary on the designer mentioned in the OP was a little dry. Also, at his gallery, Tufte has a short video on loop about how he'd improve the Apple iPhone weather app...I forgot the details but I remember thinking that I disagreed with a lot of what he proposed. (On certain days of the week, Tufte is actually in the gallery...he was very nice to talk to) His gallery: http://etmodern.com/ETmodern/ET_Modern.html http://etmodern.com/ETmodern/ET_Modern.html
- jowiar 13y ago
  The world would be a better place if we all embraced Tufte's driving principle of respecting people's intelligence, rather than assuming stupidity. Going forward, Bret Victor's work does an utterly fantastic job of blending Tufte's principles with 21st century interactive technology.
  - harrylove 13y ago
    Tufte agrees. https://twitter.com/EdwardTufte/status/336951232197451777 https://twitter.com/EdwardTufte/status/336951232197451777
- fsck--off 13y ago
  > It's true that Tufte's pioneering work was done in the age of paper, but that simplicity and clarity of purpose is even in greater need today. His principles aren't infallible. This 2007 study found that a group of students preferred a graph with "chart junk" to Tufte's minimalist style, although the study does note that this may have been caused by the students' familiarity with "chart junk" graphs. http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1362587 http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1362587
pyrocat 13y ago
He's a legend from days of yore, but his books and presentations really don't talk about the web or even modern technology. It's great if you're working in traditional graphic design, and there are some core concepts you can take and apply to web design, but I don't see why people think he's some hero of modern design.
taylorbuley 13y ago
If you're looking for a more quantitative version of Tufte, I highly recommend Cleveland (http://www.amazon.com/Visualizing-Data-William-S-Cleveland/dp/0963488406/ http://www.amazon.com/Visualizing-Data-William-S-Cleveland/d...) and Wilkinson (http://www.amazon.com/The-Grammar-Graphics-Statistics-Computing/dp/0387245448 http://www.amazon.com/The-Grammar-Graphics-Statistics-Comput...)
- kylebgorman 13y ago
  The difference between Cleveland and Tufte is that the former is "empirical" (he discusses lots of results from psychological studies on comprehension of graphics) rather than one man's opinion. Also, Cleveland actually has accomplished something other than scolding and praising. Personally, I liked Cleveland's "Elements of Graphing Data" (http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Graphing-Data-William-Cleveland/dp/0963488414 http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Graphing-Data-William-Clevela...) better than "Visualizing Data", though they overlap a lot.
phy6 13y ago
I attended one of his day long seminars recently, and I was displeased with the lack of breadth and depth. Sure, he rails against PowerPoints like no other, we get that. My biggest issue is that everything he presented was from someone else-- he's literally just aggregating other people's work and postulating on them with fuzzy emotional thoughts-- and barely anything applies to dynamic, user driven displays such as you would find on a web dashboard. How to save yourself $300 hundred dollars AKA My half page of notes from the seminar: 0) Get the books on eBay or Amazon if you _really_ want them. 1) Don't use PowerPoint. Try to convince your viewers to browse a web page as the presentation, after you've convinced your IT staff to set up a web server for your presentation. 2) Look at ESPN.com, Weather.gov and Google News and Google Maps if you want to see what he thinks are the pinnacle of data presentations on the web. This will save you a few hours. 3) "Use verbs not Nouns" Show comparisons and mechanisms. 4) "Do whatever it takes to express the information" 5) "Show interaction between objects" 6) "Don't use boxes or drop shadows". Avoid "Chart Junk" 7) "Use small multiples" (he peddled his spark lines and ESPN's groups of stats) 8) Make paper based, text presentations and supply that to people as the arrive at the meeting. This way they can read that before jumping in with questions. The paper allows them to skip ahead and read what they want to know about so they don't interrupt you. 9) Calm the f2ck down when you go to meetings. He spent about an hour giving a lame rendition of How to Win Friends and Influence People. In one sentence: Be nice, be patient, be persuasive. 10) Ask yourself: ==1) "What's the problem?" ==2) "Why does it matter?" ==3) "What are you going to do about it?" Other issues I had with his seminar: 1) I disliked the way he was surrounded by his thug ushers, who seemed to comb the aisles looking for someone or some thing. It made me feel like I was at a cult meeting or that they were worried about someone recording the seminar. 2) I disliked his peddling of his mother's book and his sculptures. 3) His dour emotional expressions about not wanting to teach government how to visualize things (This meeting was in Arlington VA, so I'm sure there were lots of military folks/contractors) in wake of the leaks. That's fine but now you look like a sellout, 'teaching' them anyway. 4) The multiple videos presentations about visualizing musical data. That's cute, but the guy is off his rocker if he thinks people are going to use that in place of a traditional presentation. 5) The repeated videos. I think we watched the same video three times of a Swiss topological map with an ethnic female voice narrating. By the second time I was already thinking to myself 'I wish he would stop wasting my time with that'. 6) I understand there is a cult of personality around him, and I generally thought highly of his name until I went to the seminar. A coworker who went a few months before me told me it wasn't worth the time, but it was the cult of personality that caused me to go. He ended up pretty much being a douche in person. Not one visualization we saw was created by him, he is literally curating other's great works, and for that, you can pick up used books on your own or visit a library. 7) All in all it felt way too touchy-feely and not very concrete. He only _briefly_ made mention of R and D3, saying they were high end, advanced visualization tools, that we as an audience shouldn't be using, because they are too complex. WTF. 8) Things that are NOT covered: a) Moving data, aside from his video visualization of music that he found somewhere. b) Visualizaing dynamic graphs or Sankeys. c) Interactive displays, such as on a website for users to use. The closest he came was to extol the virtues of ESPN. He literally recommended to bring up your presentations to the level of ESPN.com, and you'd meet with success. TLDR; To each his own, but I wish I had my day back.
blueatlas 13y ago
I found Designing with Data (http://www.designingwithdata.com/ http://www.designingwithdata.com/) to be a simple and practical introduction to data visualization. I attended Tufte's seminar years ago, and found it entertaining, but that's about it.
wallflower 13y ago
I've talked to multiple people who have been to Tufte's seminars. They all, unfortunately, say the same thing: in person, he's not a very dynamic teacher - maybe even a bit boring. That does not detract from his ability to bring data visualization to the mainstream.
jmount 13y ago
Another good source on visual presentation (of data) is Cleveland (author of "The Elements of Graphing Data", see http://www.win-vector.com/blog/2013/02/revisiting-clevelands-the-elements-of-graphing-data-in-ggplot2/ http://www.win-vector.com/blog/2013/02/revisiting-clevelands... ). The neat thing is Cleveland formally tested a lot of his visualization principles (asking people to estimate things from different graphs).

113 points by DanielRibeiro 13y ago

eshvk 13y ago

Edward Tufte says Bret Victor [1] is someone to watch out for. I am curious: can someone who is into usability look at the site and comment on whether this is considered usable? I mean his site is incredibly innovative and beautiful. However, I find it kind of hard to navigate? [1] http://worrydream.com/ http://worrydream.com/

guywithabike 13y ago
It's not about the website, it's about the content. If you read the articles, I think you'll be suitably blown away. Example: http://worrydream.com/#!2/LadderOfAbstraction http://worrydream.com/#!2/LadderOfAbstraction
- eshvk 13y ago
  Oh no, I am impressed. The guy is as close as one can come to be a modern renaissance man. The website is also a statement of art and I was curious how it came across from a usability perspective.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
asselinpaul 13y ago
Watch his presentations, they are incredibly inspiring and impressive. https://vimeo.com/36579366 https://vimeo.com/36579366 https://vimeo.com/64895205 https://vimeo.com/64895205 https://vimeo.com/66085662 https://vimeo.com/66085662 All are required viewing for the HN crowd.
rossjudson 13y ago
I'm sad that Apple took a couple of years of Bret's innovation and locked it away. Thanks, Apple. I couldn't agree more with ET's two choices. Mike Bostock is a machine. He's produced a lifetime's worth of awesome work, and he's just getting started.
DanielRibeiro 13y ago
Bret Victor, who has been inspired[1] by Doug Engelbart, has showcased plenty of innovative ways on design/user interaction on his presentations/writtings: * Magic Ink[2] * Stop Drawing Dead Fish[3] * Drawing Dynamic Visualizations[4] * Media for Thinking the Unthinkable[5] * LearnableProgramming[6] * Inventing on Principle[7] [1] http://worrydream.com/Engelbart/ http://worrydream.com/Engelbart/ [2] http://worrydream.com/#!/MagicInk http://worrydream.com/#!/MagicInk [3] http://vimeo.com/64895205 http://vimeo.com/64895205 [4] http://vimeo.com/66085662 http://vimeo.com/66085662 [5] http://vimeo.com/67076984 http://vimeo.com/67076984 [6] http://worrydream.com/LearnableProgramming/ http://worrydream.com/LearnableProgramming/ [7] http://vimeo.com/36579366 http://vimeo.com/36579366

hrabago 13y ago

I've put in a request to my boss to attend his one day seminar last year. However, recent reviews of attendees say his views haven't caught up with modern times and he just sticks to visualization techniques from years ago.

thrush 13y ago
I recommend getting his books, or just The Visual Display of Information (http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/books_vdqi http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/books_vdqi) if you don't want to go a seminar.
- haberman 13y ago
  Just to put in a contrary opinion, I was really disappointed in this book and I don't understand the praise it gets. Here's my extensive review on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/review/R11NYC3OE3LBE http://www.amazon.com/review/R11NYC3OE3LBE
  - Silhouette 13y ago
    Personally, I came to very different conclusions. I found the book thought-provoking, and while your criticisms seem to be factually accurate, so was the original material you were criticising in each case I checked. I am upvoting you anyway, because we should never take things for granted just because someone famous said them, and because I appreciate that you took the time to make a careful and reasonable argument even if I personally disagree with it.
    - haberman 13y ago
      I am really curious to know what you took from this book. I am really confused about why people like it so much. For example, do you like Tufte's box plot? Do you like his revised bar chart? Do you strive, in your own graphs, to "erase redundant data-ink" in the way that Tufte advocates?
      - 13y ago

didgeoridoo 13y ago

Well that nearly gave me a heart attack. I thought for a moment that this was an obituary. Hope he sticks with us for a long time.

vidarh 13y ago
My reaction too. That's a rather odd way of presenting an article.
taggart 13y ago
Yes, a very poorly chosen title.

yannis 13y ago

For anyone wishing to emulate Tufte's style in books using LaTeX, http://www.ctan.org/pkg/tufte-latex http://www.ctan.org/pkg/tufte-latex.

danso 13y ago

In the five years that I've practiced data visualization and analysis, the day-long Tufte seminar that my boss sent me to was likely the most important single day of my development career. Tufte has virtually nothing to say about how visualization should be done off paper, but his general principles are invaluable. I was still making annoying Flash charts at the time, shortly after attending Tufte's workshop, I realized how much of an anti-pattern it is to rely heavily on button-pushing and on-hovers. It's true that Tufte's pioneering work was done in the age of paper, but that simplicity and clarity of purpose is even in greater need today. (And I'll also say, Jesus Christ this submitted headline made me fear that he was dead) Edit: I can't avoid saying that some of the more contemporary ideas he's really into are sometimes a little boring compared to his data visualization ideas...if you live in New York, Tufte has a gallery of art that he's done and space devoted to others' ideas...I thought the documentary on the designer mentioned in the OP was a little dry. Also, at his gallery, Tufte has a short video on loop about how he'd improve the Apple iPhone weather app...I forgot the details but I remember thinking that I disagreed with a lot of what he proposed. (On certain days of the week, Tufte is actually in the gallery...he was very nice to talk to) His gallery: http://etmodern.com/ETmodern/ET_Modern.html http://etmodern.com/ETmodern/ET_Modern.html

jowiar 13y ago
The world would be a better place if we all embraced Tufte's driving principle of respecting people's intelligence, rather than assuming stupidity. Going forward, Bret Victor's work does an utterly fantastic job of blending Tufte's principles with 21st century interactive technology.
- harrylove 13y ago
  Tufte agrees. https://twitter.com/EdwardTufte/status/336951232197451777 https://twitter.com/EdwardTufte/status/336951232197451777
fsck--off 13y ago
> It's true that Tufte's pioneering work was done in the age of paper, but that simplicity and clarity of purpose is even in greater need today. His principles aren't infallible. This 2007 study found that a group of students preferred a graph with "chart junk" to Tufte's minimalist style, although the study does note that this may have been caused by the students' familiarity with "chart junk" graphs. http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1362587 http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1362587

pyrocat 13y ago

He's a legend from days of yore, but his books and presentations really don't talk about the web or even modern technology. It's great if you're working in traditional graphic design, and there are some core concepts you can take and apply to web design, but I don't see why people think he's some hero of modern design.

taylorbuley 13y ago

If you're looking for a more quantitative version of Tufte, I highly recommend Cleveland (http://www.amazon.com/Visualizing-Data-William-S-Cleveland/dp/0963488406/ http://www.amazon.com/Visualizing-Data-William-S-Cleveland/d...) and Wilkinson (http://www.amazon.com/The-Grammar-Graphics-Statistics-Computing/dp/0387245448 http://www.amazon.com/The-Grammar-Graphics-Statistics-Comput...)

kylebgorman 13y ago
The difference between Cleveland and Tufte is that the former is "empirical" (he discusses lots of results from psychological studies on comprehension of graphics) rather than one man's opinion. Also, Cleveland actually has accomplished something other than scolding and praising. Personally, I liked Cleveland's "Elements of Graphing Data" (http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Graphing-Data-William-Cleveland/dp/0963488414 http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Graphing-Data-William-Clevela...) better than "Visualizing Data", though they overlap a lot.

phy6 13y ago

I attended one of his day long seminars recently, and I was displeased with the lack of breadth and depth. Sure, he rails against PowerPoints like no other, we get that. My biggest issue is that everything he presented was from someone else-- he's literally just aggregating other people's work and postulating on them with fuzzy emotional thoughts-- and barely anything applies to dynamic, user driven displays such as you would find on a web dashboard. How to save yourself $300 hundred dollars AKA My half page of notes from the seminar: 0) Get the books on eBay or Amazon if you _really_ want them. 1) Don't use PowerPoint. Try to convince your viewers to browse a web page as the presentation, after you've convinced your IT staff to set up a web server for your presentation. 2) Look at ESPN.com, Weather.gov and Google News and Google Maps if you want to see what he thinks are the pinnacle of data presentations on the web. This will save you a few hours. 3) "Use verbs not Nouns" Show comparisons and mechanisms. 4) "Do whatever it takes to express the information" 5) "Show interaction between objects" 6) "Don't use boxes or drop shadows". Avoid "Chart Junk" 7) "Use small multiples" (he peddled his spark lines and ESPN's groups of stats) 8) Make paper based, text presentations and supply that to people as the arrive at the meeting. This way they can read that before jumping in with questions. The paper allows them to skip ahead and read what they want to know about so they don't interrupt you. 9) Calm the f2ck down when you go to meetings. He spent about an hour giving a lame rendition of How to Win Friends and Influence People. In one sentence: Be nice, be patient, be persuasive. 10) Ask yourself: ==1) "What's the problem?" ==2) "Why does it matter?" ==3) "What are you going to do about it?" Other issues I had with his seminar: 1) I disliked the way he was surrounded by his thug ushers, who seemed to comb the aisles looking for someone or some thing. It made me feel like I was at a cult meeting or that they were worried about someone recording the seminar. 2) I disliked his peddling of his mother's book and his sculptures. 3) His dour emotional expressions about not wanting to teach government how to visualize things (This meeting was in Arlington VA, so I'm sure there were lots of military folks/contractors) in wake of the leaks. That's fine but now you look like a sellout, 'teaching' them anyway. 4) The multiple videos presentations about visualizing musical data. That's cute, but the guy is off his rocker if he thinks people are going to use that in place of a traditional presentation. 5) The repeated videos. I think we watched the same video three times of a Swiss topological map with an ethnic female voice narrating. By the second time I was already thinking to myself 'I wish he would stop wasting my time with that'. 6) I understand there is a cult of personality around him, and I generally thought highly of his name until I went to the seminar. A coworker who went a few months before me told me it wasn't worth the time, but it was the cult of personality that caused me to go. He ended up pretty much being a douche in person. Not one visualization we saw was created by him, he is literally curating other's great works, and for that, you can pick up used books on your own or visit a library. 7) All in all it felt way too touchy-feely and not very concrete. He only _briefly_ made mention of R and D3, saying they were high end, advanced visualization tools, that we as an audience shouldn't be using, because they are too complex. WTF. 8) Things that are NOT covered: a) Moving data, aside from his video visualization of music that he found somewhere. b) Visualizaing dynamic graphs or Sankeys. c) Interactive displays, such as on a website for users to use. The closest he came was to extol the virtues of ESPN. He literally recommended to bring up your presentations to the level of ESPN.com, and you'd meet with success. TLDR; To each his own, but I wish I had my day back.

blueatlas 13y ago

I found Designing with Data (http://www.designingwithdata.com/ http://www.designingwithdata.com/) to be a simple and practical introduction to data visualization. I attended Tufte's seminar years ago, and found it entertaining, but that's about it.

wallflower 13y ago

I've talked to multiple people who have been to Tufte's seminars. They all, unfortunately, say the same thing: in person, he's not a very dynamic teacher - maybe even a bit boring. That does not detract from his ability to bring data visualization to the mainstream.

jmount 13y ago

Another good source on visual presentation (of data) is Cleveland (author of "The Elements of Graphing Data", see http://www.win-vector.com/blog/2013/02/revisiting-clevelands-the-elements-of-graphing-data-in-ggplot2/ http://www.win-vector.com/blog/2013/02/revisiting-clevelands... ). The neat thing is Cleveland formally tested a lot of his visualization principles (asking people to estimate things from different graphs).