6 ms·

Just because it comes from Mailchimp and/or includes an obvious unsubscribe link doesn't mean it's not spam. There are countless sites whose default behaviour g

by tobtoh 13y ago

Just because it comes from Mailchimp and/or includes an obvious unsubscribe link doesn't mean it's not spam. There are countless sites whose default behaviour goes like this: * require an email address to create an account to use their service * without stating this, automatically assume that they now have permission to send you whatever email they want - admin emails, special offers, partner promotions etc * assume that because they provide an unsubscribe link, those emails are automatically not spam. It's those sites which I'm really glad Gmail automatically filters them out. Providing an email address because that's a requirement to have an account is not the same thing as giving approval to receive all your marketing and promotion spam.

kbenson 13y ago
> Just because it comes from Mailchimp and/or includes an obvious unsubscribe link doesn't mean it's not spam. No, but it's VASTLY more likely not to be (if the unsubscribe link is real and working). > There are countless sites whose default behaviour goes like this: > * require an email address to create an account to use their service > * without stating this, automatically assume that they now have permission to send you whatever email they want - admin emails, special offers, partner promotions etc > * assume that because they provide an unsubscribe link, those emails are automatically not spam. > It's those sites which I'm really glad Gmail automatically filters them out. Providing an email address because that's a requirement to have an account is not the same thing as giving approval to receive all your marketing and promotion spam. Well, if it's in their TOS (and on most the sites it probably is), then it probably is okay, and you have nobody to blame but yourself (as do we all). The current state isn't optimal, but it's what the public wanted. The race to low cost/free services subsidized by advertising has led to this. If you really want to not be contacted for a promotion from a company, put your money where your mouth is and choose services where their business plan doesn't require pestering you to use them more. edited to lighten the accusatory stance of "blame", as it didn't convey my real intent accurately
- scott_s 13y ago
  I call unrequested "offers" spam, even if they have a valid unsubscribe link, and even if I gave the company my email address for other purposes.
  - kbenson 13y ago
    Then you are most likely using the term incorrectly. When you have a business relationship with a company and you have not told them to not email you, the email is not entirely unsolicited, and thus not spam. It may be unwanted though, which is why Google is routing it to the "promotions" section. It's not necessarily spam though, which is why they don't immediately route it to the spam section.
    - thrownaway2424 13y ago
      No, YOU are using the term as corrupted by email marketing people, and the post to which you replied is using it as sensible people use it. If I give a company my email address so I can get my receipts from them, and then I get "valuable offers" and "service announcements" from them, that's spam, plain and simple. Sure, it's legal in the USA, but that doesn't make it not spam. Similarly, attaching promotional materials to my receipts and other transactional mail is an abuse of the relationship.
      - gertef 13y ago
        Are you a spammer everytime you browse a website or visit a store but don't make a purchase?
        scott_s 13y ago
        Browsing is entirely different from spamming. With browsing, a store (online or offline) has opened its doors and said "Please come in! Look around, see if you want to buy something!" And we do. It's understood in this model that we are not obligated to buy something. We are browsing. Email is a means of personal communication. I trust that when I give out my email, it will only be used for the promised purposes - such as giving me order receipts, or establishing an account. Giving out this email for one purpose is not implicit permission to use it for another purpose.
- comex 13y ago
  > If you really want to not be contacted for a promotion from a company, put your money where your mouth is and choose services where their business plan doesn't require pestering you to use them more. Why should I have to? Promotional mail is not like banner ads that a site may be depending on for most of its revenue (and many people are comfortable filtering those out despite that); it's just an annoying extra, which can always be opted out of with a few clicks anyway. But if I don't want to do that for whatever reason - perhaps I do want to receive the mail but not clutter up my regular inbox with it, perhaps I'm just lazy - as a user, I am perfectly within my rights to automatically classify it into its own section.
  - kbenson 13y ago
    > as a user, I am perfectly within my rights to automatically classify it into its own section Of course you are. That was meant as a call to arms. If people want less commercial email, supporting businesses that make that a priority is the first step. Complaining publicly about unwanted behavior in commercial companies and then continuing to use the services of those companies when alternatives exist (which they may not always) is hypocritical. OTOH, complaining to the companies about those practices is beneficial.
    - jfb 13y ago
      I don't think it's so much "hypocritical" as "ineffective". I would have said "pointless", but venting spleen can be a healthy and enjoyable pastime.
      - kbenson 13y ago
        It's hypocritical in that the use of a service by a company whose actions you publicly call out supports that company, and by extension, those actions.
- smackfu 13y ago
  >choose services where their business plan doesn't require pestering you to use them more. You usually only find out they are spammers after you sign up though? At which point, even if I leave the service, I still have to deal with the spam.
  - kbenson 13y ago
    If they are a real company that you wanted a service from, they aren't "spammers". At worst, they are irresponsible with their unsubscribe functionality. Legit companies that actually spam don't last long. The laws are explicit and harsh. The network operators and spam list maintainers are even harsher. If you are signing up for services for non-legit companies online then you've got bigger problems than I can address here. In short, stop using SPAM to mean "unwanted promotional email from a company I signed up with and have or have had in the recent past a business relationship with." They aren't the same thing, and don't deserve the same response.
    - Dylan16807 13y ago
      The definition of spam is simple: unsolicited bulk email It doesn't matter if I have a business relationship with the company. A 'business relationship' is what keeps them from violating the laws related to spam, but it's still spam. Only when I purposefully and explicitly tell a company to put me on a mailing list is it not spam. If I'm making an account for other purposes it's not the same thing. If I make a purchase it's definitely not the same thing.
      - kbenson 13y ago
        Here's the thing, I think the CAN-SPAM act actually defined this pretty well: The CAN-SPAM Act defines commercial messages as those that primarily advertise or promote a commercial product or service. The FCC’s ban does not cover “transactional or relationship” messages -- that is, notices to facilitate a transaction you have already agreed to -- for example, messages that provide information about your existing account or warranty information about a product you’ve purchased. If you have an account with them, and it's informational, even if it's just about a new service you can take advantage on that account you already have, they can contact you about it. If you don't want that, opt out. If you don't like how they handled the email process, complain to the company. If you still don't like it, stop using the service. Anything else just means that they have no way of notifying you about anything unless you visit their site. In some cases, I sure as hell want to know if they are offering free services or other promotions. In others, I opt out.
- Amadou 13y ago
  Well, if it's in their TOS (and on most the sites it probably is), then it probably is okay Just because its hidden in the fine print instead of explicitly disclosed at the point of collecting the email address does not make it "okay." It might make it legal but that's not at all the same thing - a defense that falls back on legality means they have an adversarial relationship with that customer which generally means they've lost any future business from them. That's the last place a smart company wants their customer relationship to end up.
  - michaelhoffman 13y ago
    Yes. If anything that is legal is "okay," then there is no point in discussing Gmail's new inbox because that is obviously "okay" too.
- dornab 13y ago
  Yes, I will definitely use the paid version of Facebook and Twitter next time! Unfortunately consumers don't have a choice here. Go to a paid social network that no one uses, or put up with getting spammed by pushy marketers? Somehow everyone decided that because their business model is based on advertising they should forget about good customer experience. It's certainly not OK. Why not just have pop-ups all over your page, like the more old-school "advertising-based" websites did?
  - kbenson 13y ago
    > Somehow everyone decided that because their business model is based on advertising they should forget about good customer experience Somehow everyone decided that even though companies were being annoying they would put up with it to get the service, and here we are. My point is that complaining publicly while not changing your behavior is pointless. If enough people actually DID choose a social network that wasn't as aggressive in it's emails, not only would there then be more people on those networks, but the others would change as well. > It's certainly not OK. Why not just have pop-ups all over your page, like the more old-school "advertising-based" websites did? And what happened with that? People took action, and either avoided those sites or used blockers so they were ineffective. If it still worked we would see more of it.
ErikHuisman 13y ago
If you do this using Mailchimp and have a suspicious high unsubscribe / marked as spam rate your account will be suspended.
- thrownaway2424 13y ago
  How does Mailchimp monitor spam marking rates? Generally, if it's a trade secret.
  - eli 13y ago
    I don't work for Mailchimp, but it isn't that complication: Feedback loops with major email providers, monitoring bounes and engagement rates, and (of course) tracking abuse complaints. If you're sending out bona fide spam, many people will take the time to send a message to abuse@yourprovider.com Among the consumer-grade ESPs, Mailchimp has a reputation for being extremely strict about anti-spam enforcement.
  - cmwelsh 13y ago
    Email providers such as Google send a ping to the sender letting them know who is marking their messages as spam.
    - pepve 13y ago
      Where do I find out more about this? A quick web search didn't yield anything.
      - dbarlett 13y ago
        It's called a feedback loop. http://www.dirigodev.com/content/email-feedback-loops/ http://www.dirigodev.com/content/email-feedback-loops/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_Reporting_Format https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_Reporting_Format https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6650 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6650
        13y ago
gertef 13y ago
You should not sign up for services that do not provide an appropriate email-send policy before signup.
- lmm 13y ago
  If you're signing up for a service that sensibly uses your email for login but has no other plausible reason to send you email, how can you tell the difference at signup time between one that's going to do just what it seems like and one that's also going to send you "marketing emails"?

by tobtoh 13y ago

kbenson 13y ago

> Just because it comes from Mailchimp and/or includes an obvious unsubscribe link doesn't mean it's not spam. No, but it's VASTLY more likely not to be (if the unsubscribe link is real and working). > There are countless sites whose default behaviour goes like this: > * require an email address to create an account to use their service > * without stating this, automatically assume that they now have permission to send you whatever email they want - admin emails, special offers, partner promotions etc > * assume that because they provide an unsubscribe link, those emails are automatically not spam. > It's those sites which I'm really glad Gmail automatically filters them out. Providing an email address because that's a requirement to have an account is not the same thing as giving approval to receive all your marketing and promotion spam. Well, if it's in their TOS (and on most the sites it probably is), then it probably is okay, and you have nobody to blame but yourself (as do we all). The current state isn't optimal, but it's what the public wanted. The race to low cost/free services subsidized by advertising has led to this. If you really want to not be contacted for a promotion from a company, put your money where your mouth is and choose services where their business plan doesn't require pestering you to use them more. edited to lighten the accusatory stance of "blame", as it didn't convey my real intent accurately

scott_s 13y ago
I call unrequested "offers" spam, even if they have a valid unsubscribe link, and even if I gave the company my email address for other purposes.
- kbenson 13y ago
  Then you are most likely using the term incorrectly. When you have a business relationship with a company and you have not told them to not email you, the email is not entirely unsolicited, and thus not spam. It may be unwanted though, which is why Google is routing it to the "promotions" section. It's not necessarily spam though, which is why they don't immediately route it to the spam section.
  - thrownaway2424 13y ago
    No, YOU are using the term as corrupted by email marketing people, and the post to which you replied is using it as sensible people use it. If I give a company my email address so I can get my receipts from them, and then I get "valuable offers" and "service announcements" from them, that's spam, plain and simple. Sure, it's legal in the USA, but that doesn't make it not spam. Similarly, attaching promotional materials to my receipts and other transactional mail is an abuse of the relationship.
    - gertef 13y ago
      Are you a spammer everytime you browse a website or visit a store but don't make a purchase?
      - scott_s 13y ago
        Browsing is entirely different from spamming. With browsing, a store (online or offline) has opened its doors and said "Please come in! Look around, see if you want to buy something!" And we do. It's understood in this model that we are not obligated to buy something. We are browsing. Email is a means of personal communication. I trust that when I give out my email, it will only be used for the promised purposes - such as giving me order receipts, or establishing an account. Giving out this email for one purpose is not implicit permission to use it for another purpose.
comex 13y ago
> If you really want to not be contacted for a promotion from a company, put your money where your mouth is and choose services where their business plan doesn't require pestering you to use them more. Why should I have to? Promotional mail is not like banner ads that a site may be depending on for most of its revenue (and many people are comfortable filtering those out despite that); it's just an annoying extra, which can always be opted out of with a few clicks anyway. But if I don't want to do that for whatever reason - perhaps I do want to receive the mail but not clutter up my regular inbox with it, perhaps I'm just lazy - as a user, I am perfectly within my rights to automatically classify it into its own section.
- kbenson 13y ago
  > as a user, I am perfectly within my rights to automatically classify it into its own section Of course you are. That was meant as a call to arms. If people want less commercial email, supporting businesses that make that a priority is the first step. Complaining publicly about unwanted behavior in commercial companies and then continuing to use the services of those companies when alternatives exist (which they may not always) is hypocritical. OTOH, complaining to the companies about those practices is beneficial.
  - jfb 13y ago
    I don't think it's so much "hypocritical" as "ineffective". I would have said "pointless", but venting spleen can be a healthy and enjoyable pastime.
    - kbenson 13y ago
      It's hypocritical in that the use of a service by a company whose actions you publicly call out supports that company, and by extension, those actions.
smackfu 13y ago
>choose services where their business plan doesn't require pestering you to use them more. You usually only find out they are spammers after you sign up though? At which point, even if I leave the service, I still have to deal with the spam.
- kbenson 13y ago
  If they are a real company that you wanted a service from, they aren't "spammers". At worst, they are irresponsible with their unsubscribe functionality. Legit companies that actually spam don't last long. The laws are explicit and harsh. The network operators and spam list maintainers are even harsher. If you are signing up for services for non-legit companies online then you've got bigger problems than I can address here. In short, stop using SPAM to mean "unwanted promotional email from a company I signed up with and have or have had in the recent past a business relationship with." They aren't the same thing, and don't deserve the same response.
  - Dylan16807 13y ago
    The definition of spam is simple: unsolicited bulk email It doesn't matter if I have a business relationship with the company. A 'business relationship' is what keeps them from violating the laws related to spam, but it's still spam. Only when I purposefully and explicitly tell a company to put me on a mailing list is it not spam. If I'm making an account for other purposes it's not the same thing. If I make a purchase it's definitely not the same thing.
    - kbenson 13y ago
      Here's the thing, I think the CAN-SPAM act actually defined this pretty well: The CAN-SPAM Act defines commercial messages as those that primarily advertise or promote a commercial product or service. The FCC’s ban does not cover “transactional or relationship” messages -- that is, notices to facilitate a transaction you have already agreed to -- for example, messages that provide information about your existing account or warranty information about a product you’ve purchased. If you have an account with them, and it's informational, even if it's just about a new service you can take advantage on that account you already have, they can contact you about it. If you don't want that, opt out. If you don't like how they handled the email process, complain to the company. If you still don't like it, stop using the service. Anything else just means that they have no way of notifying you about anything unless you visit their site. In some cases, I sure as hell want to know if they are offering free services or other promotions. In others, I opt out.
Amadou 13y ago
Well, if it's in their TOS (and on most the sites it probably is), then it probably is okay Just because its hidden in the fine print instead of explicitly disclosed at the point of collecting the email address does not make it "okay." It might make it legal but that's not at all the same thing - a defense that falls back on legality means they have an adversarial relationship with that customer which generally means they've lost any future business from them. That's the last place a smart company wants their customer relationship to end up.
- michaelhoffman 13y ago
  Yes. If anything that is legal is "okay," then there is no point in discussing Gmail's new inbox because that is obviously "okay" too.
dornab 13y ago
Yes, I will definitely use the paid version of Facebook and Twitter next time! Unfortunately consumers don't have a choice here. Go to a paid social network that no one uses, or put up with getting spammed by pushy marketers? Somehow everyone decided that because their business model is based on advertising they should forget about good customer experience. It's certainly not OK. Why not just have pop-ups all over your page, like the more old-school "advertising-based" websites did?
- kbenson 13y ago
  > Somehow everyone decided that because their business model is based on advertising they should forget about good customer experience Somehow everyone decided that even though companies were being annoying they would put up with it to get the service, and here we are. My point is that complaining publicly while not changing your behavior is pointless. If enough people actually DID choose a social network that wasn't as aggressive in it's emails, not only would there then be more people on those networks, but the others would change as well. > It's certainly not OK. Why not just have pop-ups all over your page, like the more old-school "advertising-based" websites did? And what happened with that? People took action, and either avoided those sites or used blockers so they were ineffective. If it still worked we would see more of it.

ErikHuisman 13y ago

If you do this using Mailchimp and have a suspicious high unsubscribe / marked as spam rate your account will be suspended.

thrownaway2424 13y ago
How does Mailchimp monitor spam marking rates? Generally, if it's a trade secret.
- eli 13y ago
  I don't work for Mailchimp, but it isn't that complication: Feedback loops with major email providers, monitoring bounes and engagement rates, and (of course) tracking abuse complaints. If you're sending out bona fide spam, many people will take the time to send a message to abuse@yourprovider.com Among the consumer-grade ESPs, Mailchimp has a reputation for being extremely strict about anti-spam enforcement.
- cmwelsh 13y ago
  Email providers such as Google send a ping to the sender letting them know who is marking their messages as spam.
  - pepve 13y ago
    Where do I find out more about this? A quick web search didn't yield anything.
    - dbarlett 13y ago
      It's called a feedback loop. http://www.dirigodev.com/content/email-feedback-loops/ http://www.dirigodev.com/content/email-feedback-loops/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_Reporting_Format https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_Reporting_Format https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6650 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6650
      - 13y ago

gertef 13y ago

You should not sign up for services that do not provide an appropriate email-send policy before signup.

lmm 13y ago
If you're signing up for a service that sensibly uses your email for login but has no other plausible reason to send you email, how can you tell the difference at signup time between one that's going to do just what it seems like and one that's also going to send you "marketing emails"?