6 ms·

But you can already upload your software to phones. You don't need the simcard for that.

jingo 13y ago
I thought we were talking about SIM cards. Can I upload software to my SIM card? No. Most phones accept some type of SIM card, while not all phones have a means of user-controlled offline external storage (microSD, etc.). Why can't the user access a SIM card? Why can't she look at the software stored on a SIM card? The SIM card slot is pretty much off-limits to the user. Yet the user owns the phone. This is like buying a computer that has a special card slot owned by a single company or a consortium of companies that produce special cards only for their own use. The user is effectively denied access to the slot.
- pjmlp 13y ago
  Do you program your PC BIOS or firmware?
  - nitrogen 13y ago
    http://www.coreboot.org http://www.coreboot.org
    - pjmlp 13y ago
      How many PCs ship with it?
      - jingo 13y ago
        Usually, whatever software PC's "ship with" is crapware. Go figure. "Crapware" is just my opinion. Although I've heard others note the same thing.
      - nitrogen 13y ago
        I think at least some Chromebooks use it. It finds use in HPC clusters and embedded/industrial settings as well.
        pgeorgi 13y ago
        All Chromebooks except for the ARM model and the CR48 prototype use coreboot. The ChromeOS developers are currently porting coreboot to ARM, too.
  - __david__ 13y ago
    I wish! I hate my PC's bios. So many superfluous timeouts, so much waiting around (clearly braindead programming that doesn't do hardware well). A stupid text based config interface. Nothing about the BIOS is good.
    - pjmlp 13y ago
      You mean, besides providing a standard way to access hardware that ARM systems still don't have to this day?
      - jfb 13y ago
        And all this time, I thought my x86-64 workstation was BIOS free! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Int...
        pjmlp 13y ago
        > UEFI is meant to replace the Basic Input/Output System (BIOS) firmware interface Hence firmware to replace BIOS, with the same purpose as BIOS. So do you re-program your UEFI firmware? And since when is x86-64 an ARM system, since that was my remark?
      - e12e 13y ago
        Having a specification and a reference implementation is possible without the reference implementation being proprietary... Personally I would much prefer that.
      - nitrogen 13y ago
        According to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6083583 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6083583, Coreboot is being ported to ARM.
  - jingo 13y ago
    Yes.
- nicolas314 13y ago
  You do not own the SIM card, it remains full property of your network operator. As such, they have a right to keep you off-limits. FYI: the main Javacard applet on a SIM card is the GSM applet, the one you use to authenticate against your network. Other applets are useful for network operators: IMEI tracking sends them your phone ID to help them configure it correctly -- it is also used to track stolen phones. Another useful one updates your preferred foreign network list when you change countries, connecting you automatically to a cheaper network when available. Uploading your own software will not do you much good. As mentioned above, CPU and memory are very limited on SIM cards, and Javacard is basically a glorified assembler you do not want to touch. SIM cards are mostly there to perform some simple crypto operations for network authentication and that's it.
  - nitrogen 13y ago
    Imagine reversing the direction of reporting: allowing the user to learn more about the network, for example. That would be just one reason to put custom firmware on a SIM card. Another might be running a known-secure firmware for security-conscious users (corporations, governments, kidnapping/extortion targets, etc.).
    - nicolas314 13y ago
      SIM cards don't know anything about the network they are running on, this all happens inside your terminal. They hold an IMSI (=contract #), a set of private keys, and some utility applets. SIM cards don't even know their own phone number. As for running a known-secure firmware: in the end a SIM card only authenticate you against a Mobile Operator with a pre-shared key. If you believe your SIM is running a non-secure firmware, how can you trust your Mobile Network Operator not to do fancy stuff on their network behind your back?
  - jingo 13y ago
    Who says there can only be one SIM card? What if the user can have her own SIM card? Who says SIM cards are only useful with cell networks? What if the user has her own network? Is that impossible, now and forever? What if she has her own authentication and encryption needs, apart from some telecom's network? Yes, the telecom owns the card they give you. Indeed, that is their property. But they don't need to own the smart card standard and use it to exclude users from using the slot. Imagine if the motherboard you bought would had certain slots that were off-limits to you and open to use only by certain companies. As for "glorified assemler", have you considered something more succinct, like FORTH. There's nothing glorious about Java.

jingo 13y ago

I thought we were talking about SIM cards. Can I upload software to my SIM card? No. Most phones accept some type of SIM card, while not all phones have a means of user-controlled offline external storage (microSD, etc.). Why can't the user access a SIM card? Why can't she look at the software stored on a SIM card? The SIM card slot is pretty much off-limits to the user. Yet the user owns the phone. This is like buying a computer that has a special card slot owned by a single company or a consortium of companies that produce special cards only for their own use. The user is effectively denied access to the slot.

pjmlp 13y ago
Do you program your PC BIOS or firmware?
- nitrogen 13y ago
  http://www.coreboot.org http://www.coreboot.org
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    How many PCs ship with it?
    - jingo 13y ago
      Usually, whatever software PC's "ship with" is crapware. Go figure. "Crapware" is just my opinion. Although I've heard others note the same thing.
    - nitrogen 13y ago
      I think at least some Chromebooks use it. It finds use in HPC clusters and embedded/industrial settings as well.
      - pgeorgi 13y ago
        All Chromebooks except for the ARM model and the CR48 prototype use coreboot. The ChromeOS developers are currently porting coreboot to ARM, too.
- __david__ 13y ago
  I wish! I hate my PC's bios. So many superfluous timeouts, so much waiting around (clearly braindead programming that doesn't do hardware well). A stupid text based config interface. Nothing about the BIOS is good.
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    You mean, besides providing a standard way to access hardware that ARM systems still don't have to this day?
    - jfb 13y ago
      And all this time, I thought my x86-64 workstation was BIOS free! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Int...
      - pjmlp 13y ago
        > UEFI is meant to replace the Basic Input/Output System (BIOS) firmware interface Hence firmware to replace BIOS, with the same purpose as BIOS. So do you re-program your UEFI firmware? And since when is x86-64 an ARM system, since that was my remark?
    - e12e 13y ago
      Having a specification and a reference implementation is possible without the reference implementation being proprietary... Personally I would much prefer that.
    - nitrogen 13y ago
      According to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6083583 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6083583, Coreboot is being ported to ARM.
- jingo 13y ago
  Yes.
nicolas314 13y ago
You do not own the SIM card, it remains full property of your network operator. As such, they have a right to keep you off-limits. FYI: the main Javacard applet on a SIM card is the GSM applet, the one you use to authenticate against your network. Other applets are useful for network operators: IMEI tracking sends them your phone ID to help them configure it correctly -- it is also used to track stolen phones. Another useful one updates your preferred foreign network list when you change countries, connecting you automatically to a cheaper network when available. Uploading your own software will not do you much good. As mentioned above, CPU and memory are very limited on SIM cards, and Javacard is basically a glorified assembler you do not want to touch. SIM cards are mostly there to perform some simple crypto operations for network authentication and that's it.
- nitrogen 13y ago
  Imagine reversing the direction of reporting: allowing the user to learn more about the network, for example. That would be just one reason to put custom firmware on a SIM card. Another might be running a known-secure firmware for security-conscious users (corporations, governments, kidnapping/extortion targets, etc.).
  - nicolas314 13y ago
    SIM cards don't know anything about the network they are running on, this all happens inside your terminal. They hold an IMSI (=contract #), a set of private keys, and some utility applets. SIM cards don't even know their own phone number. As for running a known-secure firmware: in the end a SIM card only authenticate you against a Mobile Operator with a pre-shared key. If you believe your SIM is running a non-secure firmware, how can you trust your Mobile Network Operator not to do fancy stuff on their network behind your back?
- jingo 13y ago
  Who says there can only be one SIM card? What if the user can have her own SIM card? Who says SIM cards are only useful with cell networks? What if the user has her own network? Is that impossible, now and forever? What if she has her own authentication and encryption needs, apart from some telecom's network? Yes, the telecom owns the card they give you. Indeed, that is their property. But they don't need to own the smart card standard and use it to exclude users from using the slot. Imagine if the motherboard you bought would had certain slots that were off-limits to you and open to use only by certain companies. As for "glorified assemler", have you considered something more succinct, like FORTH. There's nothing glorious about Java.