7 ms·

Apache Kills Off Its C++ Standard Library

94 points by udp 13y ago

twoodfin 13y ago
Sun/Oracle was moving to Apache stdcxx to replace their existing awful options of a way out of date Rogue Wave STL or an almost as out of date STLport. https://forums.oracle.com/thread/2293516 https://forums.oracle.com/thread/2293516 I wonder what they'll do now. The sensible thing would be to adopt clang and libc++, so we can be reasonably certain they won't do that.
- apaprocki 13y ago
  Studio 13 will use the g++ runtime: http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E37069_01/html/E37071/gndfg.html#OSSWNgnddm http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E37069_01/html/E37071/gndfg.html#O...
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    Does this mean Oracle will eventually ditch SunPro for GCC?
    - apaprocki 13y ago
      No, I doubt it. Studio has features that don't exist in GCC/clang and there is a lot of support for older code/systems that make the newer compilers incompatible for some uses. It's just a shortcut to reuse the "easy" reusable part and focus on the compiler.
      - pjmlp 13y ago
        Thanks. Last time I used SunPro was in Solaris 2.6 / 7 around 1999-2001, hence my question.
  - twoodfin 13y ago
    Not so bad. I wonder if we'll still have Solaris customers when this compiler is ready for use. Are they planning on shipping this runtime with the OS eventually?
    - apaprocki 13y ago
      Yes, they took this approach because otherwise it is a pretty monumental effort to create a C++11 std lib from scratch and they didn't have any work done on the compiler side yet.
- pjmlp 13y ago
  Ah, the joys of doing UNIX development in commercial UNIX systems with the vendors compilers back in 2000.
netcraft 13y ago
Not being a c++ dev, I didn't realize there were multiple versions of the standard library - are they just different implementations of the same api? Are there other languages with multiple implementations of the standard lib?
- alexberghage 13y ago
  Yes and yes! So, the C++ standard library differences don't usually bite you unless you're e.g. Building executables on windows with mingw and trying to link against libraries built with visual studio that use STL features at the API, but there are indeed several implementations out there. libstdc++, libc++, and msvcrt are among the more common. As for other languages with several standard libraries: a while ago that was a frequent criticism of D -- there were two competing standard libraries, which caused some division in the community.
  - speeder 13y ago
    D was another issue entirely. It had a standard library, and a non-standard library that was more popular than the standard one, and they were not compatible at all. The reason it caused the division at community is that the ones that you could not use both on the same project, this meant that for a while you had two "D" languages that were separate, libraries made with one did not worked with the other...
    - xavel 13y ago
      Oh man, and I'm glad they finally settled for Phobos. I don't use D much, but thanks to gdc, the gcc frontend to dmd, and Phobos, writing D actually became acceptable, almost enjoyable. There's, of course, still the fact that D is not very widely used.
    - synchronise 13y ago
      Has this issue with D been fixed, or do users still have to choose between two incompatible libraries?
edsiper2 13y ago
Even some people still use it, last release was five years ago, totally fear.
- bjz_ 13y ago
  fear->fair?
radmuzom 13y ago
I am not familiar with the history of this project, but why was Apache trying to re-create the C++ standard library at all? Given that in GNU/Linux systems, the canonical implementation is the one provided by GCC (G++), and Microsoft provides their own implementations.
- rfctr 13y ago
  ... not even mentioning STLport. http://www.stlport.org/news.html http://www.stlport.org/news.html Apache project looks like "me too" one.
- klodolph 13y ago
  1) There are more platforms than "GCC" and "Microsoft". Maybe your microwave oven runs code written in C++, who knows. 2) In 2005, some existing C++ standard libraries did not follow the standard very well.
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    Not only that, there are many more C and C++ compilers out there than just clang, gcc and msvc.
rbanffy 13y ago
I don't get the complains. Apache is abandoning it, but you can still download it, host it on Github and contribute as much as you want. That's the whole point of "free as in freedom" and, if Oracle has been unable to kill MySQL, I doubt the Apache Foundation would do it.
Aldo_MX 13y ago
Sorry to ask but i'm confused, is it really bad that the project got declared its end of life? The source is open and anyone interested is able to continue where it left off...
- mcpherrinm 13y ago
  I assume this means the Apache foundation will stop providing whatever services they provided. What those are, I'm unsure, but given the inactivity on the project, I assume it won't be a huge difference.
omra 13y ago
Check out the status reports to the Apache Board of Directors (http://stdcxx.apache.org/status/ http://stdcxx.apache.org/status/): (05/11) No changes. Stdcxx continues to be dormant. There was a flurry of emails on the stdcxx-dev list suggesting continued interest from the same two parties (ARM and Sun) but no new work. --- The Attic is where retired Apache projects go. (02/2012) A vote to move stdcxx to the Attic failed. The majority of stdcxx contributors voted in favor of continuing to maintain the project. Several inactive committers stepped up to help with the project. --- I do not think that this was a surprise. Regular status reports stopped completely after February 2012. It's also notable that Chris Bergström was proposed for the new chair position, see http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/stdcxx-dev/201306.mbox/browser http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/stdcxx-dev/201306.m...
- mjn 13y ago
  Seems to have been telegraphed since at least November 2010: http://stdcxx.apache.org/status/2010-11.txt http://stdcxx.apache.org/status/2010-11.txt
apaprocki 13y ago
Shameless plug: If you'd like an actively developed, cross platform alternative C++ standard library (with Lakos allocators), come check out BSL: https://github.com/bloomberg/bsl https://github.com/bloomberg/bsl Sadly right now C++11 library features will lag a bit because not all compilers support them.

94 points by udp 13y ago

Sun/Oracle was moving to Apache stdcxx to replace their existing awful options of a way out of date Rogue Wave STL or an almost as out of date STLport. https://forums.oracle.com/thread/2293516 https://forums.oracle.com/thread/2293516 I wonder what they'll do now. The sensible thing would be to adopt clang and libc++, so we can be reasonably certain they won't do that.

apaprocki 13y ago
Studio 13 will use the g++ runtime: http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E37069_01/html/E37071/gndfg.html#OSSWNgnddm http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E37069_01/html/E37071/gndfg.html#O...
- pjmlp 13y ago
  Does this mean Oracle will eventually ditch SunPro for GCC?
  - apaprocki 13y ago
    No, I doubt it. Studio has features that don't exist in GCC/clang and there is a lot of support for older code/systems that make the newer compilers incompatible for some uses. It's just a shortcut to reuse the "easy" reusable part and focus on the compiler.
    - pjmlp 13y ago
      Thanks. Last time I used SunPro was in Solaris 2.6 / 7 around 1999-2001, hence my question.
- twoodfin 13y ago
  Not so bad. I wonder if we'll still have Solaris customers when this compiler is ready for use. Are they planning on shipping this runtime with the OS eventually?
  - apaprocki 13y ago
    Yes, they took this approach because otherwise it is a pretty monumental effort to create a C++11 std lib from scratch and they didn't have any work done on the compiler side yet.
pjmlp 13y ago
Ah, the joys of doing UNIX development in commercial UNIX systems with the vendors compilers back in 2000.

netcraft 13y ago

Not being a c++ dev, I didn't realize there were multiple versions of the standard library - are they just different implementations of the same api? Are there other languages with multiple implementations of the standard lib?

alexberghage 13y ago
Yes and yes! So, the C++ standard library differences don't usually bite you unless you're e.g. Building executables on windows with mingw and trying to link against libraries built with visual studio that use STL features at the API, but there are indeed several implementations out there. libstdc++, libc++, and msvcrt are among the more common. As for other languages with several standard libraries: a while ago that was a frequent criticism of D -- there were two competing standard libraries, which caused some division in the community.
- speeder 13y ago
  D was another issue entirely. It had a standard library, and a non-standard library that was more popular than the standard one, and they were not compatible at all. The reason it caused the division at community is that the ones that you could not use both on the same project, this meant that for a while you had two "D" languages that were separate, libraries made with one did not worked with the other...
  - xavel 13y ago
    Oh man, and I'm glad they finally settled for Phobos. I don't use D much, but thanks to gdc, the gcc frontend to dmd, and Phobos, writing D actually became acceptable, almost enjoyable. There's, of course, still the fact that D is not very widely used.
  - synchronise 13y ago
    Has this issue with D been fixed, or do users still have to choose between two incompatible libraries?

edsiper2 13y ago

Even some people still use it, last release was five years ago, totally fear.

bjz_ 13y ago
fear->fair?

radmuzom 13y ago

I am not familiar with the history of this project, but why was Apache trying to re-create the C++ standard library at all? Given that in GNU/Linux systems, the canonical implementation is the one provided by GCC (G++), and Microsoft provides their own implementations.

rfctr 13y ago
... not even mentioning STLport. http://www.stlport.org/news.html http://www.stlport.org/news.html Apache project looks like "me too" one.
klodolph 13y ago
1) There are more platforms than "GCC" and "Microsoft". Maybe your microwave oven runs code written in C++, who knows. 2) In 2005, some existing C++ standard libraries did not follow the standard very well.
- pjmlp 13y ago
  Not only that, there are many more C and C++ compilers out there than just clang, gcc and msvc.

rbanffy 13y ago

I don't get the complains. Apache is abandoning it, but you can still download it, host it on Github and contribute as much as you want. That's the whole point of "free as in freedom" and, if Oracle has been unable to kill MySQL, I doubt the Apache Foundation would do it.

Aldo_MX 13y ago

Sorry to ask but i'm confused, is it really bad that the project got declared its end of life? The source is open and anyone interested is able to continue where it left off...

mcpherrinm 13y ago
I assume this means the Apache foundation will stop providing whatever services they provided. What those are, I'm unsure, but given the inactivity on the project, I assume it won't be a huge difference.

omra 13y ago

Check out the status reports to the Apache Board of Directors (http://stdcxx.apache.org/status/ http://stdcxx.apache.org/status/): (05/11) No changes. Stdcxx continues to be dormant. There was a flurry of emails on the stdcxx-dev list suggesting continued interest from the same two parties (ARM and Sun) but no new work. --- The Attic is where retired Apache projects go. (02/2012) A vote to move stdcxx to the Attic failed. The majority of stdcxx contributors voted in favor of continuing to maintain the project. Several inactive committers stepped up to help with the project. --- I do not think that this was a surprise. Regular status reports stopped completely after February 2012. It's also notable that Chris Bergström was proposed for the new chair position, see http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/stdcxx-dev/201306.mbox/browser http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/stdcxx-dev/201306.m...

mjn 13y ago
Seems to have been telegraphed since at least November 2010: http://stdcxx.apache.org/status/2010-11.txt http://stdcxx.apache.org/status/2010-11.txt

apaprocki 13y ago

Shameless plug: If you'd like an actively developed, cross platform alternative C++ standard library (with Lakos allocators), come check out BSL: https://github.com/bloomberg/bsl https://github.com/bloomberg/bsl Sadly right now C++11 library features will lag a bit because not all compilers support them.