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So, basically your position is "If you don't like it, get out". I'm not sure this view is productive in any kind of discussion. Personally, I think the amount o

by smtddr 13y ago

So, basically your position is "If you don't like it, get out". I'm not sure this view is productive in any kind of discussion. Personally, I think the amount of abusive speech & profanity in the tech-field is way too much. I assume(incorrectly?) that it's because it's mostly male and a lot of men like to do that to each other. I personally don't do it to anyone and don't like it being directed at me.

fosap 13y ago
And that is the concept of the "benevolent dictator". If he is a dick, incompetent or does technical stuff you don't like, fork. IMO the best way to run FOSS project, but of course there are others.
- meowface 13y ago
  Agreed. It's quite easy for an open source project to just waddle around and start blindly accepting things random developers contribute with no real decision or filtering process (cough PHP). They may verify the code's not buggy or that it at least does something that could be of use to someone, but they generally don't care if it fits in with the overall design and goals of the project. Having someone who has the complete vision in his head, who's also extremely technical and knows what changes are good and bad, is absolutely invaluable.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- sz4kerto 13y ago
  Linux is not just code. It's a brand, a community, whatever. As people on HN should very well know, success is mostly about execution and luck - lot of people have very good ideas. The reason behind Linux being so successful is only partly attributable to it's technical merit (well, from the technical standpoint it didn't have anything too exciting when it started to have traction). It had to have all luck, good moments, industrial/social situation what eventually made it successful.
  - mehta 13y ago
    I don't think luck plays that big a part. But regardless, As you said, execution is very integral to the success of the project and since Linus, has executed the project so well over the years, it does say something about the execution style(it works and people still support him as well as the way he leads :).
dotmanish 13y ago
No, it's rather "If you don't like it, fork it."
- sz4kerto 13y ago
  That's a very hypocritical approach I believe. A few years' ago our ex-prime minister said that if you don't like what's going on in the country, you're free to leave. It doesn't work like that.
  - brk 13y ago
    Not good comparison. A country is essentially a fixed physical plot of land, with people, resources, climate, etc. If you leave a country you have to leave all of those things (and more) behind. Forking code essentially gives you the ability to take everything, and then move it in your own new direction. You leave behind only the parts you thought were "bad" or unprofessional or whatever.
    - shawabawa3 13y ago
      > Not good comparison. A country is essentially a fixed physical plot of land, with people, resources, climate, etc. If you leave a country you have to leave all of those things (and more) behind. Yes it is. Saying you can just fork it is like saying you can just move yourself and all your family and friends to another country. You might be able to move yourself but moving any significant amount of developers is in practise impossible.
      - phryk 13y ago
        You might be able to move yourself but moving any significant amount of developers is in practise impossible. So it's better to force that significant amount of developers to do your bidding? That sounds just a just a weee bit unreasonable, IMHO.
      - criley2 13y ago
        Right but the analogy breaks down in the sense that: Linus is responsible for the developers who won't move. They're his team. You're basically saying that you want the fruits of Linus's labor without Linus there to do it?
phryk 13y ago
Too much profanity? Well butter my ass and call me fucking skittles! So you want to censor everyone who doesn't buy into your flowery child talk? Fuck that. Cursing is a perfectly fine means of setting emphasis and I sure as shitpissfuckcuntcocksuckermotherfuckertits am not going to surrender that just so some shithead I don't even care about can jack off to his or her little control fantasies. You don't like that? I couldn't really give less of a fuck; You're supposed to be a tech person, write a few sloc to filter profanity out or something but don't get on my nerves with that shit. And yes, that was offensive and I am fully aware of that. That was also exactly what I was going for. I have to concede that abuse is never a good thing, but since you seem to be seeing profanity as a problem I'm not sure we could agree on what exactly constitutes an 'abuse'. EDIT: It was (correctly) pointed out that censoring communication was not mentioned or even necessarily implied in smtddr's comment so this might not apply to said comment. That said, this still reflects aptly what I think about censoring away profanity.
- rtpg 13y ago
  profanity as a language tool is meant to accentuate things (like an exclamation mark). If you overuse it, it becomes useless. Swearing all the time is not equivalent to talking like an adult, despite what you might think.
  - phryk 13y ago
    I agree. The curse-density in that post is obviously a good deal above my average. :) People communicate in different ways (and with different "curse-densities") and that is completely fine. What isn't fine is trying to get everyone to conform to a certain way of communication that you personally think is agreeable. Diversity is to be cherished, not frowned upon. It makes for a more interesting world, and I am not willing to lose that just to make my environment have a few less sharp edges. I don't need nor am willing to be rolled up in bubble wrap for what somebody calls my "own safety", which then isn't even determined by myself.
    - justin66 13y ago
      > Diversity is to be cherished, not frowned upon. It makes for a more interesting world, and I am not willing to lose that just to make my environment have a few less sharp edges. If the effect of not censoring yourself in this regard is to work in a much less diverse environment, which side is going to give? Honest question.
nawitus 13y ago
Swearing and swearing at are different things, though. You can have profanity without abusive speech, e.g. 'fuck, race conditions suck' etc.
forgottenpaswrd 13y ago
"I think the amount of abusive speech & profanity in the tech-field is way too much. I assume(incorrectly?) that it's because it's mostly male and a lot of men like to do that to each other." It seems clear to me that you don't have contact with lots of women. Do you?. It seems to me you are idealizing what you don't know about. Profanity was not their forte(recent generations in some sectors could compete with men), but abusive speech is. They could be formidable verbal aggressors, specially between them. The strongest verbal abusers I know all are women. I Know a woman that was so socked that his father slapped her once, but now she is so verbal abusive with her children. I have seen it, and certainly if I were one of her children I would prefer a slap to this psychological pressure.
anExcitedBeast 13y ago
I assume (incorrectly?) you're female. Believe it or not, plenty of women are fine with and participate in profanity. And plenty of men don't. At lunch I said, "That's a good fucking burger." Female coworker says, "Goddamn right it is." This doesn't have anything to do with gender - it's about culture. Some people can handle profanity in the work place. The rest can fuck off. </joke> The rest can get a job somewhere more professional.
criley2 13y ago
I think his position isn't "If you don't like it, get out", I think his position is much better summarized by the quintessential hacker ideology: "lead, follow, or get out of the way". Linus is leading. So challenge his leadership, follow the man, or get out of his way.
Goladus 13y ago
So, basically your position is "If you don't like it, get out". I'm not sure this view is productive in any kind of discussion. Yes. The discussion shouldn't even be taking place. It is a waste of time. That's why the parent qualified Linus as the leader of one of the most important human endeavors of the last century. Most project managers do not behave like Linus. There's a whole world full of people who "act professionally." Linus is not one of them, and contrary to some of hand-wringing I've seen in this thread he is not inspiring hordes of foul-mouthed abusive managers to go out and oppress poor developers.
- protomyth 13y ago
  > That's why the parent qualified Linus as the leader of one of the most important human endeavors of the last century. How quickly people forget the Polio vaccine. I don't think Linux qualifies in the top 10, and hyperbole doesn't really help the conversation.
  - Goladus 13y ago
    > hyperbole doesn't really help the conversation. Is that so? The issue is manners on a mailing list. Qualifying Linux as a top-10, top-100, or top-1000 accomplishment or whatever definitely seems like quibbling when we're comparing it to a complaint that won't even be a historical footnote.

by smtddr 13y ago

fosap 13y ago

And that is the concept of the "benevolent dictator". If he is a dick, incompetent or does technical stuff you don't like, fork. IMO the best way to run FOSS project, but of course there are others.

meowface 13y ago
Agreed. It's quite easy for an open source project to just waddle around and start blindly accepting things random developers contribute with no real decision or filtering process (cough PHP). They may verify the code's not buggy or that it at least does something that could be of use to someone, but they generally don't care if it fits in with the overall design and goals of the project. Having someone who has the complete vision in his head, who's also extremely technical and knows what changes are good and bad, is absolutely invaluable.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
sz4kerto 13y ago
Linux is not just code. It's a brand, a community, whatever. As people on HN should very well know, success is mostly about execution and luck - lot of people have very good ideas. The reason behind Linux being so successful is only partly attributable to it's technical merit (well, from the technical standpoint it didn't have anything too exciting when it started to have traction). It had to have all luck, good moments, industrial/social situation what eventually made it successful.
- mehta 13y ago
  I don't think luck plays that big a part. But regardless, As you said, execution is very integral to the success of the project and since Linus, has executed the project so well over the years, it does say something about the execution style(it works and people still support him as well as the way he leads :).

dotmanish 13y ago

No, it's rather "If you don't like it, fork it."

sz4kerto 13y ago
That's a very hypocritical approach I believe. A few years' ago our ex-prime minister said that if you don't like what's going on in the country, you're free to leave. It doesn't work like that.
- brk 13y ago
  Not good comparison. A country is essentially a fixed physical plot of land, with people, resources, climate, etc. If you leave a country you have to leave all of those things (and more) behind. Forking code essentially gives you the ability to take everything, and then move it in your own new direction. You leave behind only the parts you thought were "bad" or unprofessional or whatever.
  - shawabawa3 13y ago
    > Not good comparison. A country is essentially a fixed physical plot of land, with people, resources, climate, etc. If you leave a country you have to leave all of those things (and more) behind. Yes it is. Saying you can just fork it is like saying you can just move yourself and all your family and friends to another country. You might be able to move yourself but moving any significant amount of developers is in practise impossible.
    - phryk 13y ago
      You might be able to move yourself but moving any significant amount of developers is in practise impossible. So it's better to force that significant amount of developers to do your bidding? That sounds just a just a weee bit unreasonable, IMHO.
    - criley2 13y ago
      Right but the analogy breaks down in the sense that: Linus is responsible for the developers who won't move. They're his team. You're basically saying that you want the fruits of Linus's labor without Linus there to do it?

phryk 13y ago

Too much profanity? Well butter my ass and call me fucking skittles! So you want to censor everyone who doesn't buy into your flowery child talk? Fuck that. Cursing is a perfectly fine means of setting emphasis and I sure as shitpissfuckcuntcocksuckermotherfuckertits am not going to surrender that just so some shithead I don't even care about can jack off to his or her little control fantasies. You don't like that? I couldn't really give less of a fuck; You're supposed to be a tech person, write a few sloc to filter profanity out or something but don't get on my nerves with that shit. And yes, that was offensive and I am fully aware of that. That was also exactly what I was going for. I have to concede that abuse is never a good thing, but since you seem to be seeing profanity as a problem I'm not sure we could agree on what exactly constitutes an 'abuse'. EDIT: It was (correctly) pointed out that censoring communication was not mentioned or even necessarily implied in smtddr's comment so this might not apply to said comment. That said, this still reflects aptly what I think about censoring away profanity.

rtpg 13y ago
profanity as a language tool is meant to accentuate things (like an exclamation mark). If you overuse it, it becomes useless. Swearing all the time is not equivalent to talking like an adult, despite what you might think.
- phryk 13y ago
  I agree. The curse-density in that post is obviously a good deal above my average. :) People communicate in different ways (and with different "curse-densities") and that is completely fine. What isn't fine is trying to get everyone to conform to a certain way of communication that you personally think is agreeable. Diversity is to be cherished, not frowned upon. It makes for a more interesting world, and I am not willing to lose that just to make my environment have a few less sharp edges. I don't need nor am willing to be rolled up in bubble wrap for what somebody calls my "own safety", which then isn't even determined by myself.
  - justin66 13y ago
    > Diversity is to be cherished, not frowned upon. It makes for a more interesting world, and I am not willing to lose that just to make my environment have a few less sharp edges. If the effect of not censoring yourself in this regard is to work in a much less diverse environment, which side is going to give? Honest question.

nawitus 13y ago

Swearing and swearing at are different things, though. You can have profanity without abusive speech, e.g. 'fuck, race conditions suck' etc.

forgottenpaswrd 13y ago

"I think the amount of abusive speech & profanity in the tech-field is way too much. I assume(incorrectly?) that it's because it's mostly male and a lot of men like to do that to each other." It seems clear to me that you don't have contact with lots of women. Do you?. It seems to me you are idealizing what you don't know about. Profanity was not their forte(recent generations in some sectors could compete with men), but abusive speech is. They could be formidable verbal aggressors, specially between them. The strongest verbal abusers I know all are women. I Know a woman that was so socked that his father slapped her once, but now she is so verbal abusive with her children. I have seen it, and certainly if I were one of her children I would prefer a slap to this psychological pressure.

anExcitedBeast 13y ago

I assume (incorrectly?) you're female. Believe it or not, plenty of women are fine with and participate in profanity. And plenty of men don't. At lunch I said, "That's a good fucking burger." Female coworker says, "Goddamn right it is." This doesn't have anything to do with gender - it's about culture. Some people can handle profanity in the work place. The rest can fuck off. </joke> The rest can get a job somewhere more professional.

criley2 13y ago

I think his position isn't "If you don't like it, get out", I think his position is much better summarized by the quintessential hacker ideology: "lead, follow, or get out of the way". Linus is leading. So challenge his leadership, follow the man, or get out of his way.

Goladus 13y ago

So, basically your position is "If you don't like it, get out". I'm not sure this view is productive in any kind of discussion. Yes. The discussion shouldn't even be taking place. It is a waste of time. That's why the parent qualified Linus as the leader of one of the most important human endeavors of the last century. Most project managers do not behave like Linus. There's a whole world full of people who "act professionally." Linus is not one of them, and contrary to some of hand-wringing I've seen in this thread he is not inspiring hordes of foul-mouthed abusive managers to go out and oppress poor developers.

protomyth 13y ago
> That's why the parent qualified Linus as the leader of one of the most important human endeavors of the last century. How quickly people forget the Polio vaccine. I don't think Linux qualifies in the top 10, and hyperbole doesn't really help the conversation.
- Goladus 13y ago
  > hyperbole doesn't really help the conversation. Is that so? The issue is manners on a mailing list. Qualifying Linux as a top-10, top-100, or top-1000 accomplishment or whatever definitely seems like quibbling when we're comparing it to a complaint that won't even be a historical footnote.