4 ms·

Agreed. I thought that immediately when Logdown was being shown off. I feel like 'hacker' is being turned into a market, and that very concept brings about a c

by serf 13y ago

Agreed. I thought that immediately when Logdown was being shown off. I feel like 'hacker' is being turned into a market, and that very concept brings about a certain amount of sleaze(marketing). I thought a hacker was someone that made the tools available work for them; not someone that used something tailored to them perfectly..not that a hacker would be against such a thing -- but rarely does the capability of a tool also meet the flexibility requirements of a hacker without further modification.

obstacle1 13y ago
'Hacker' has been a market since personal computing became a thing. How do you think people got parts back in the day? By being marketed to through magazines and user groups.
- detcader 13y ago
  I think you're misunderstanding what was meant by a "market"; the OP is saying that a consumerist market may be emerging to provide "stuff that a REAL hacker would own", like how ThinkGeek.com et al is the market for geeks.
- serf 13y ago
  A computer parts company offers (what was was) an exclusive service; computer parts. A blogging platform that heavily reinforces markdown is still a blogging platform. The example given by the guy who replied to you was a good one. ThinkGeek. It's Sharper Image, but with a science spin. They often overcharge, but they do so because of who they market towards,and how they do so (with their form of propaganda) I understand why these markets spring up, it's profitable. People WANT to self-identify as a hacker and thus gravitate to services that say they are spun for that 'kind' of person. I just happen to think that it's sleazy to take advantage of the trend lately to self identify as a hacker.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 13y ago
    Let me see if I get this right: You're saying that it's sleazy to sell people (non-hackers who aspire to be hackers) things and services that they want and are willing to pay for? Is that really what you mean?
    - serf 13y ago
      No. To clarify, I think it's sleazy to sell people products and then make ambiguous claims that a person of lesser intelligence may follow as fact. Example : "See guys!? Major League Gamer Fatal1ty uses such and such hardware. Buy now!" See how they never said that Fatal1ty is a good gamer BECAUSE he uses x & y hardware? They simply stated he uses it. It's up to the victim to infer a correlation between game skill and hardware, but the marketer sets them up in a biased manner so as to manipulate what they infer. THAT is what I have a problem with, and "a tool for [insert sect of people here]" exploits that the same way. "Hey guys, want to be a 'hacker'? Did you know 'hackers' use x & y? Buy now!" They don't know what services or products they want, they simply read labels. I do, in fact, think it's wrong to exploit the mechanisms behind 'a fool and their money are soon parted.'.
rmrfrmrf 13y ago
it's funny you say that, considering HN is a breeding ground for shady marketing techniques. The most common kind here seem to be these generic "how to" articles that briefly mention some obscure product as an essential part of one's workflow (but maybe only by name so as to seem like it's an established product). That's usually followed up by someone in the comments asking about the product and -- wouldn't you know it -- the product owner showing up to give an elevator pitch along with a few satisfied customers. I mean, consider where you are: a forum that's owned by a tech incubator. I'm not suggesting a mass exodus or anything, but I'm just saying that tech-savvy people have been marketed to for a while now, and it's up to you to recognize when you're getting played.
davidw 13y ago
Because "marketing" == "sleaze"... I used to have those kinds of ideas about marketing, but I realized they are close-minded and not very productive. I've met some very good, and very smart marketers. Maybe the field attracts a wider range of bozos, because it's less 'concrete' than other things, but that doesn't mean it's all bunk. Here's a great book about marketing and how to do it wrong: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001C6MQA8/?tag=dedasys-20 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001C6MQA8/?tag=dedasys-20
- Schiphol 13y ago
  The question is not whether you can do good marketing (you surely can) but what counts as good marketing: identifying and exploiting dispositions to behave irrationally in your target. A very good and very smart marketer will do this very well. It will still be sleaze.
  - davidw 13y ago
    > what counts as good marketing: identifying and exploiting dispositions to behave irrationally in your target. It sounds like you don't know much about marketing.
    - Schiphol 13y ago
      You probably believe it's all about leveraging deep consumer insights in the creation of Unique Selling Propositions?
- Dylan16807 13y ago
  Marketing correlates with sleaze. Don't accidentally fight a strawman.
  - davidw 13y ago
    > Marketing correlates with sleaze. Bullshit. Do you run a business? Do you aspire to? There are plenty of ways to let people know about what you are doing that are not sleazy. Is patio11 sleazy? He's pretty good at marketing.

by serf 13y ago

obstacle1 13y ago

'Hacker' has been a market since personal computing became a thing. How do you think people got parts back in the day? By being marketed to through magazines and user groups.

detcader 13y ago
I think you're misunderstanding what was meant by a "market"; the OP is saying that a consumerist market may be emerging to provide "stuff that a REAL hacker would own", like how ThinkGeek.com et al is the market for geeks.
serf 13y ago
A computer parts company offers (what was was) an exclusive service; computer parts. A blogging platform that heavily reinforces markdown is still a blogging platform. The example given by the guy who replied to you was a good one. ThinkGeek. It's Sharper Image, but with a science spin. They often overcharge, but they do so because of who they market towards,and how they do so (with their form of propaganda) I understand why these markets spring up, it's profitable. People WANT to self-identify as a hacker and thus gravitate to services that say they are spun for that 'kind' of person. I just happen to think that it's sleazy to take advantage of the trend lately to self identify as a hacker.
- HeyLaughingBoy 13y ago
  Let me see if I get this right: You're saying that it's sleazy to sell people (non-hackers who aspire to be hackers) things and services that they want and are willing to pay for? Is that really what you mean?
  - serf 13y ago
    No. To clarify, I think it's sleazy to sell people products and then make ambiguous claims that a person of lesser intelligence may follow as fact. Example : "See guys!? Major League Gamer Fatal1ty uses such and such hardware. Buy now!" See how they never said that Fatal1ty is a good gamer BECAUSE he uses x & y hardware? They simply stated he uses it. It's up to the victim to infer a correlation between game skill and hardware, but the marketer sets them up in a biased manner so as to manipulate what they infer. THAT is what I have a problem with, and "a tool for [insert sect of people here]" exploits that the same way. "Hey guys, want to be a 'hacker'? Did you know 'hackers' use x & y? Buy now!" They don't know what services or products they want, they simply read labels. I do, in fact, think it's wrong to exploit the mechanisms behind 'a fool and their money are soon parted.'.

rmrfrmrf 13y ago

it's funny you say that, considering HN is a breeding ground for shady marketing techniques. The most common kind here seem to be these generic "how to" articles that briefly mention some obscure product as an essential part of one's workflow (but maybe only by name so as to seem like it's an established product). That's usually followed up by someone in the comments asking about the product and -- wouldn't you know it -- the product owner showing up to give an elevator pitch along with a few satisfied customers. I mean, consider where you are: a forum that's owned by a tech incubator. I'm not suggesting a mass exodus or anything, but I'm just saying that tech-savvy people have been marketed to for a while now, and it's up to you to recognize when you're getting played.

davidw 13y ago

Because "marketing" == "sleaze"... I used to have those kinds of ideas about marketing, but I realized they are close-minded and not very productive. I've met some very good, and very smart marketers. Maybe the field attracts a wider range of bozos, because it's less 'concrete' than other things, but that doesn't mean it's all bunk. Here's a great book about marketing and how to do it wrong: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001C6MQA8/?tag=dedasys-20 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001C6MQA8/?tag=dedasys-20

Schiphol 13y ago
The question is not whether you can do good marketing (you surely can) but what counts as good marketing: identifying and exploiting dispositions to behave irrationally in your target. A very good and very smart marketer will do this very well. It will still be sleaze.
- davidw 13y ago
  > what counts as good marketing: identifying and exploiting dispositions to behave irrationally in your target. It sounds like you don't know much about marketing.
  - Schiphol 13y ago
    You probably believe it's all about leveraging deep consumer insights in the creation of Unique Selling Propositions?
Dylan16807 13y ago
Marketing correlates with sleaze. Don't accidentally fight a strawman.
- davidw 13y ago
  > Marketing correlates with sleaze. Bullshit. Do you run a business? Do you aspire to? There are plenty of ways to let people know about what you are doing that are not sleazy. Is patio11 sleazy? He's pretty good at marketing.