5 ms·

I try to treat my students the same way. The fact that almost no one does so makes it tough. Average high school kids have a tough time adapting to it. But when

I try to treat my students the same way. The fact that almost no one does so makes it tough. Average high school kids have a tough time adapting to it. But when they do, as Dijkstra says, they become much more effective. Sometimes there is a group that gets it right away, and runs with it, but it usually takes some time. There are usually a few who think they are smarter than average (they usually are), that their intelligence will compensate (it rarely does), and that they don't need to make any extra effort. They usually figure it out after a semester. I also had a class mutiny once. I had a couple of intelligent, but spoiled and opinionated students who were vocally critical of my/this instructional style. There was also a larger than usual number of dullards in the class, who were easily led (by the dissenters). The self-nominated leaders managed to turn most of the class' attitude sour. That was the worst semester I've had yet. Everything became difficult. I had trouble maintaining my own discipline. The real trick that I would like to learn, is how to turn more of the middle and bottom tier of students into better students.

1123581321 13y ago
What frustrates me as a student and sometimes teacher is that the role of even the most engaged student cannot be expanded to do the opposite of mutiny: engage the less able students in the class. Why is it that the relationship between an engaged student and a teacher is an individual one? Can the student become engaged with the class of which the teacher is a part? I believe this is the key to solving the problem you pose in your last sentence.
- brandonbloom 13y ago
  > Can the student become engaged with the class of which the teacher is a part? It's certainly hard. I love to teach & help, but most students don't view other students' input as collaborative or helpful. I've frequently experienced cases where a student asked a question and it was obvious (to me anyway) what that student was missing or misunderstanding. Then, it becomes obvious that the teacher doesn't understand the miscommunication. But if I step in to synchronize, such that neither party is speaking past each other, then the student views me as a know-it-all trying to show off and the teacher views me as trying to undermine his authority. Ultimately, I gave up trying to help unless I know both the teacher and the student personally.
- doki_pen 13y ago
  In the case of mutiny, it is in the leaders interest to engage with his fellow student. In the case of the good student, he's competing with his fellow student, so it's in his best interest not to help them succeed.
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    >In the case of the good student, he's competing with his fellow student, so it's in his best interest not to help them succeed. This is entirely counterproductive. There is no good reason to have that attitude since the number of spoils (a grade of "A") are not limited.
  - HarryHirsch 13y ago
    It's odd to think of one's fellow students as competitors instead of colleagues. I would call this mindset pernicious, even perverted.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  >even the most engaged student cannot be expanded to do the opposite of mutiny: engage the less able students in the class. Sure they can. I try to leverage the better students in exactly this way. We're often encouraged to engage students in this way (there is usually a seminar about it at least semi-annually). >Why is it that the relationship between an engaged student and a teacher is an individual one? FERPA, And I think that's mostly the right way to do things. Instructors shouldn't make direct references to other students, even though it is often impossible not to.
- LockeWatts 13y ago
  "What frustrates me as a student and sometimes teacher is that the role of even the most engaged student cannot be expanded to do the opposite of mutiny: engage the less able students in the class. " Why not? I hosted working sessions for everyone in my software engineering class to work on their projects. The number of people who ran into similar bugs and were able to say "Oh, yeah, you have it configured wrong. Here, let me show you" was actually pretty amazing. Make sure to clear it with the professor, invite him to come by, make it clear nobody is straight copying or anything. But collaborative effort should be encouraged, not reprimanded.
djt 13y ago
From having tutored a LOT of students, I would say that one class at university usually wont make a difference to low and middle students as most of the skills they learn that allow them to become top students come from good parenting and several good teachers in primary/secondary school.
zwtaylor 13y ago
I was fortunate enough to have a teacher at a public high school whose methods were very similar to your's and Mr. Dijkstra's. The professional attitude and crisp procedure he brought to the classroom extended to even peripheral considerations; he wore a suit every day and addressed each student as "Mr." and "Ms.". Respect and attentiveness were obligatory, but reciprocated. Though a chronically absentminded student in nearly every other subject, I excelled under his system and completed homework every night, an accomplishment I can say with certainty I never once again achieved in high school. While the knowledge acquired from other courses has atrophied over the years, those classes are still as lucid as ever in my mind. It may take an initial period for students to become acclimated to this environment, there may even be some push-back, but I think a very formal, cerebral learning climate is beneficial in many cases.
MaysonL 13y ago
> The real trick that I would like to learn, is how to turn more of the middle and bottom tier of students into better students. One useful method is to remind them that they find the subject difficult not because they are stupid, but because the subject is hard, and that with some hard work, it will become easier.

1123581321 13y ago

What frustrates me as a student and sometimes teacher is that the role of even the most engaged student cannot be expanded to do the opposite of mutiny: engage the less able students in the class. Why is it that the relationship between an engaged student and a teacher is an individual one? Can the student become engaged with the class of which the teacher is a part? I believe this is the key to solving the problem you pose in your last sentence.

brandonbloom 13y ago
> Can the student become engaged with the class of which the teacher is a part? It's certainly hard. I love to teach & help, but most students don't view other students' input as collaborative or helpful. I've frequently experienced cases where a student asked a question and it was obvious (to me anyway) what that student was missing or misunderstanding. Then, it becomes obvious that the teacher doesn't understand the miscommunication. But if I step in to synchronize, such that neither party is speaking past each other, then the student views me as a know-it-all trying to show off and the teacher views me as trying to undermine his authority. Ultimately, I gave up trying to help unless I know both the teacher and the student personally.
doki_pen 13y ago
In the case of mutiny, it is in the leaders interest to engage with his fellow student. In the case of the good student, he's competing with his fellow student, so it's in his best interest not to help them succeed.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  >In the case of the good student, he's competing with his fellow student, so it's in his best interest not to help them succeed. This is entirely counterproductive. There is no good reason to have that attitude since the number of spoils (a grade of "A") are not limited.
- HarryHirsch 13y ago
  It's odd to think of one's fellow students as competitors instead of colleagues. I would call this mindset pernicious, even perverted.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>even the most engaged student cannot be expanded to do the opposite of mutiny: engage the less able students in the class. Sure they can. I try to leverage the better students in exactly this way. We're often encouraged to engage students in this way (there is usually a seminar about it at least semi-annually). >Why is it that the relationship between an engaged student and a teacher is an individual one? FERPA, And I think that's mostly the right way to do things. Instructors shouldn't make direct references to other students, even though it is often impossible not to.
LockeWatts 13y ago
"What frustrates me as a student and sometimes teacher is that the role of even the most engaged student cannot be expanded to do the opposite of mutiny: engage the less able students in the class. " Why not? I hosted working sessions for everyone in my software engineering class to work on their projects. The number of people who ran into similar bugs and were able to say "Oh, yeah, you have it configured wrong. Here, let me show you" was actually pretty amazing. Make sure to clear it with the professor, invite him to come by, make it clear nobody is straight copying or anything. But collaborative effort should be encouraged, not reprimanded.

djt 13y ago

From having tutored a LOT of students, I would say that one class at university usually wont make a difference to low and middle students as most of the skills they learn that allow them to become top students come from good parenting and several good teachers in primary/secondary school.

zwtaylor 13y ago

I was fortunate enough to have a teacher at a public high school whose methods were very similar to your's and Mr. Dijkstra's. The professional attitude and crisp procedure he brought to the classroom extended to even peripheral considerations; he wore a suit every day and addressed each student as "Mr." and "Ms.". Respect and attentiveness were obligatory, but reciprocated. Though a chronically absentminded student in nearly every other subject, I excelled under his system and completed homework every night, an accomplishment I can say with certainty I never once again achieved in high school. While the knowledge acquired from other courses has atrophied over the years, those classes are still as lucid as ever in my mind. It may take an initial period for students to become acclimated to this environment, there may even be some push-back, but I think a very formal, cerebral learning climate is beneficial in many cases.

MaysonL 13y ago

> The real trick that I would like to learn, is how to turn more of the middle and bottom tier of students into better students. One useful method is to remind them that they find the subject difficult not because they are stupid, but because the subject is hard, and that with some hard work, it will become easier.