4 ms·

The evidence that the state allegedly failed to turn over in discovery included text messages describing Treyvon Martin's fighting, discussions about buying and

by wl 13y ago

The evidence that the state allegedly failed to turn over in discovery included text messages describing Treyvon Martin's fighting, discussions about buying and selling firearms, and a picture of a hand (presumably Martin's) holding a pistol. Had this withheld information been allowed into evidence, it would tend to undermine the claims that Martin was a peaceful person, supporting Zimmerman's assertion that Martin started the fight and ultimately supporting his claim of self-defense. There is some debate about whether or not the state in fact turned over this evidence. As I understand it, the state turned over an image of Treyvon Martin's cell phone in a format that the defense experts were unable to read. According to the state, this fulfilled their discovery obligations in this matter.

s_q_b 13y ago
I can't stress this enough: burying an extant report while providing the underlying data does not fulfill a prosecutor's obligation. It's been tried in DNA cases, and when uncovered almost always results in ethics charges. What's scary are the number of everyday cases that don't attract major media attention where this has almost certainly happened without anyone ever knowing.
ksherlock 13y ago
Ultimately, the judge ruled the text messages inadmissible since they couldn't prove who actually sent them. If necessary, that will most likely be appealed.
king_jester 13y ago
> Had this withheld information been allowed into evidence, it would tend to undermine the claims that Martin was a peaceful person, supporting Zimmerman's assertion that Martin started the fight and ultimately supporting his claim of self-defense. Whether Trayvon Martin was a peaceful person or not is irrelevant, there are no direct witnesses of the actual fight between him and Zimmerman and Martin had definite reason to fear for his own safety that night. This evidence seeks to imply racist stereotypes of black men being hyper-aggressive.
- adventured 13y ago
  Can you explain how the supposed implications of the evidence has anything to do with Martin being black? It's my opinion that if a white person had those photos on their phone, it would count negatively against a claimed peaceful character as well. Unfortunately whether Martin was peaceful or not is absolutely not irrelevant. An important part of a trial like this is character construction / deconstruction by the prosecution and defense.
  - reader5000 13y ago
    Negative. Plenty of white people are into guns and no doubt are in possession of photos of themselves with their guns. A white person into guns is a "patriot" (despite of course not belonging to any well-regulated militia nor having any actual obligation to the nation's defense).
  - _delirium 13y ago
    Let's say that someone was a big fan of Joe Arpaio, and had photos of themselves on their phone relating to their Minutemen Militia service. And, separately from that, they were involved in an alleged murder of someone who happened to be Latino. Should their photos be allowed into evidence? I.e. should the jury be allowed to consider: 1) their support for a hardline right-wing sheriff; and/or 2) their membership in an armed anti-immigrant organization? Or would that bias the jury?
    - anigbrowl 13y ago
      I can't help noticing that you've switched a homicide victim with a murder defendant. A more appropriate analogy might be of a Joe Arpaio fan allegedly being murdered by someone who happened to be Latino, who then claimed self-defense. I get that you're trying to pose the question of whether the homicide victim was also an aggressor, but if so we need to include the context that the person in question was fleeing the defendant when the alleged aggression took place. If I chase you down the street for no good reason, and you turn around and punch me in the nose, who's at fault?
anigbrowl 13y ago
I see your point, but I'm not sure to what extent this would be probative (nor do I know how the actual chain of custody and discovery process actually played out, so I can't comment on whether the prosecution fell short on its responsibilities or not). The basis of my reservation, which may seem extremely pedantic, is twofold:- First, it's undisputed that Zimmerman spent several minutes following Martin while commenting on his suspicions to the police dispatcher. At some point Zimmerman exited his car, came face-to-face with Martin, and then they had an altercation. It seems quite plausible to me that Martin might have punched Zimmerman in the nose as alleged. But it's not the case that Zimmerman was doing his own thing, ran into Martin, and was attacked by him. Rather, we know from the recorded phone call that Zimmerman followed Martin for at least two minutes in his car, at which point Martin ran away and Zimmerman got out of the car and began to follow him (per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin which has the audio recording). Under Florida law (http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/784.048.html http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/784.048.html), Zimmerman's behavior up to that point amounts to at least harrassment, and arguably aggravated stalking; it was certainly reasonable for Martin to believe that Zimmerman, through his actions alone, presented a credible threat to him. Whether Martin was a peaceful person or not is thus (IMHO) mooted by the undisputed fact that Zimmerman was chasing him. Running away from another person is the exact opposite of an aggressive posture. Pursuing a person who is running away, by contrast, places the object of pursuit in a defensive posture. One could certainly argue that when Martin approached Zimmerman's car to 'check [him] out' and then ran away, that he had misapprehended Zimmerman's lawful intentions. But when Zimmerman got out of car and started running after him, that could only be interpreted as a threat. The act of pursuit made the situation into a conflict, in which Zimmerman was the aggressor. It's worth considering what the outcome of this would have been had Zimmerman not shot Martin as he did - ie, supposing Martin had punched Zimmerman, knocked him down and straddled him as alleged by Zimmerman but that the police had shown up and stopped the fight before it went any farther. First, Martin would have have been able to argue that he was standing his ground in response to an unprovoked assault by Zimmerman; and second, that if Zimmerman had been convicted of aggravated stalking (and his behavior definitely constituted the elements of that crime: 1) wilful 2) malicious 3) repeated following, and 4) making a nonverbal threat placing the target in reasonable fear for his safety), then simply by virtue of carrying a weapon during the commission of that crime, he would have been subject to a mandatory minimum sentence of 10 years (http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/775.087.html http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/775.087.html). Second (and this is more abstract), whatever the contents of Martin's phone, they were not known to Zimmerman at the time of their interaction. So they could not have had any bearing on Zimmerman's assessment of Martin. In other words, it would make no logical to sense to say 'Z was afraid of M because M was the sort of person who talked about fighting and trading firearms' - you're inviting the jury to consider knowledge after the fact as an input to Zimmerman's self-defense claim. Now it might seem like the prosecution is doing that with regard to Zimmerman's past history of studying criminal justice and so on - but that's part of the prosecution's job in terms of demonstrating motive and prior knowledge. The prosecution is not attributing such insight to Martin, who knew only that he was being followed by a stranger in a vehicle. There's no requirement for the prosecution in a homicide case to limit itself to the information that was available to the victim at the time of the incident (otherwise you'd be able to get away with murder as long as the victim were surprised).

by wl 13y ago

s_q_b 13y ago

I can't stress this enough: burying an extant report while providing the underlying data does not fulfill a prosecutor's obligation. It's been tried in DNA cases, and when uncovered almost always results in ethics charges. What's scary are the number of everyday cases that don't attract major media attention where this has almost certainly happened without anyone ever knowing.

ksherlock 13y ago

Ultimately, the judge ruled the text messages inadmissible since they couldn't prove who actually sent them. If necessary, that will most likely be appealed.

king_jester 13y ago

> Had this withheld information been allowed into evidence, it would tend to undermine the claims that Martin was a peaceful person, supporting Zimmerman's assertion that Martin started the fight and ultimately supporting his claim of self-defense. Whether Trayvon Martin was a peaceful person or not is irrelevant, there are no direct witnesses of the actual fight between him and Zimmerman and Martin had definite reason to fear for his own safety that night. This evidence seeks to imply racist stereotypes of black men being hyper-aggressive.

adventured 13y ago
Can you explain how the supposed implications of the evidence has anything to do with Martin being black? It's my opinion that if a white person had those photos on their phone, it would count negatively against a claimed peaceful character as well. Unfortunately whether Martin was peaceful or not is absolutely not irrelevant. An important part of a trial like this is character construction / deconstruction by the prosecution and defense.
- reader5000 13y ago
  Negative. Plenty of white people are into guns and no doubt are in possession of photos of themselves with their guns. A white person into guns is a "patriot" (despite of course not belonging to any well-regulated militia nor having any actual obligation to the nation's defense).
- _delirium 13y ago
  Let's say that someone was a big fan of Joe Arpaio, and had photos of themselves on their phone relating to their Minutemen Militia service. And, separately from that, they were involved in an alleged murder of someone who happened to be Latino. Should their photos be allowed into evidence? I.e. should the jury be allowed to consider: 1) their support for a hardline right-wing sheriff; and/or 2) their membership in an armed anti-immigrant organization? Or would that bias the jury?
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    I can't help noticing that you've switched a homicide victim with a murder defendant. A more appropriate analogy might be of a Joe Arpaio fan allegedly being murdered by someone who happened to be Latino, who then claimed self-defense. I get that you're trying to pose the question of whether the homicide victim was also an aggressor, but if so we need to include the context that the person in question was fleeing the defendant when the alleged aggression took place. If I chase you down the street for no good reason, and you turn around and punch me in the nose, who's at fault?

anigbrowl 13y ago

I see your point, but I'm not sure to what extent this would be probative (nor do I know how the actual chain of custody and discovery process actually played out, so I can't comment on whether the prosecution fell short on its responsibilities or not). The basis of my reservation, which may seem extremely pedantic, is twofold:- First, it's undisputed that Zimmerman spent several minutes following Martin while commenting on his suspicions to the police dispatcher. At some point Zimmerman exited his car, came face-to-face with Martin, and then they had an altercation. It seems quite plausible to me that Martin might have punched Zimmerman in the nose as alleged. But it's not the case that Zimmerman was doing his own thing, ran into Martin, and was attacked by him. Rather, we know from the recorded phone call that Zimmerman followed Martin for at least two minutes in his car, at which point Martin ran away and Zimmerman got out of the car and began to follow him (per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin which has the audio recording). Under Florida law (http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/784.048.html http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/784.048.html), Zimmerman's behavior up to that point amounts to at least harrassment, and arguably aggravated stalking; it was certainly reasonable for Martin to believe that Zimmerman, through his actions alone, presented a credible threat to him. Whether Martin was a peaceful person or not is thus (IMHO) mooted by the undisputed fact that Zimmerman was chasing him. Running away from another person is the exact opposite of an aggressive posture. Pursuing a person who is running away, by contrast, places the object of pursuit in a defensive posture. One could certainly argue that when Martin approached Zimmerman's car to 'check [him] out' and then ran away, that he had misapprehended Zimmerman's lawful intentions. But when Zimmerman got out of car and started running after him, that could only be interpreted as a threat. The act of pursuit made the situation into a conflict, in which Zimmerman was the aggressor. It's worth considering what the outcome of this would have been had Zimmerman not shot Martin as he did - ie, supposing Martin had punched Zimmerman, knocked him down and straddled him as alleged by Zimmerman but that the police had shown up and stopped the fight before it went any farther. First, Martin would have have been able to argue that he was standing his ground in response to an unprovoked assault by Zimmerman; and second, that if Zimmerman had been convicted of aggravated stalking (and his behavior definitely constituted the elements of that crime: 1) wilful 2) malicious 3) repeated following, and 4) making a nonverbal threat placing the target in reasonable fear for his safety), then simply by virtue of carrying a weapon during the commission of that crime, he would have been subject to a mandatory minimum sentence of 10 years (http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/775.087.html http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/775.087.html). Second (and this is more abstract), whatever the contents of Martin's phone, they were not known to Zimmerman at the time of their interaction. So they could not have had any bearing on Zimmerman's assessment of Martin. In other words, it would make no logical to sense to say 'Z was afraid of M because M was the sort of person who talked about fighting and trading firearms' - you're inviting the jury to consider knowledge after the fact as an input to Zimmerman's self-defense claim. Now it might seem like the prosecution is doing that with regard to Zimmerman's past history of studying criminal justice and so on - but that's part of the prosecution's job in terms of demonstrating motive and prior knowledge. The prosecution is not attributing such insight to Martin, who knew only that he was being followed by a stranger in a vehicle. There's no requirement for the prosecution in a homicide case to limit itself to the information that was available to the victim at the time of the incident (otherwise you'd be able to get away with murder as long as the victim were surprised).