8 ms·

You've got to see the irony in taking asylum in a country where the kinds of spying he blew the whistle on in the first place are brazenly displayed on public t

You've got to see the irony in taking asylum in a country where the kinds of spying he blew the whistle on in the first place are brazenly displayed on public television: http://boingboing.net/2013/07/08/snowden-and-venezuela-my-biza.html http://boingboing.net/2013/07/08/snowden-and-venezuela-my-bi...

fatjokes 13y ago
I totally agree that it is ironic. I just don't think it should detract from his main point, and personally, I'm bothered by how many people are trying to shift the focus to that. In the beginning, Snowden stated he didn't want the news to be focused on him (see how that's turned out) but instead focus on the NSA. I'm sure he wants it to be focused on Russia's human rights abuses even less (there's plenty of coverage on that independent of him).
- indlebe 13y ago
  Agreed. Tu quoque is really prevalent in this thread.
  - mindslight 13y ago
    Actually, no it's not. Compare to a thread about Assange. Snowden's revelations are apparently really hard to ignore.
- mpyne 13y ago
  > In the beginning, Snowden stated he didn't want the news to be focused on him (see how that's turned out) but instead focus on the NSA. People keep talking about what Snowden said, but why do they not look at what he did? If he really wanted to be out of the news it would be easy. Just ask Thomas Drake. Instead he's turned himself into a longtailed human interest story, despite his protestations to the contrary. If he's smart enough to act as a network structural hacker then surely he's smart enough to recall what types of stories drive the most media coverage in the U.S. His job in this was to get the evidence out there, let civil rights groups use it to carry on the fight, and to get himself back out of the media spotlight. Instead he's and WikiLeaks are sucking up all the oxygen from the EFF and ACLU.
joezydeco 13y ago
Is he wanted for espionage in Venezuela? He's asking for asylum from the United States Government, not from surveillance in general.
drivebyacct2 13y ago
And if Venezuela went around spying on the entire world while having world cop complex, maybe your point would have some weight.
sharpneli 13y ago
Does he have any other options? Do you think he would do this if he had any other choice? If he doesn't accept them he is going to be sent into US and tortured. It's either asylum from a non 'free' country or torture.
- GabrielF00 13y ago
  You're not only making a claim that he might be tortured but that any interaction that he would have with the US criminal justice system would inevitably result in torture. That's just ridiculous. Yes, in the decade after 9/11 a number of people were subjected to interrogation techniques that many people (including myself) would consider torture. However, this happened under a legal theory that would not apply in Snowden's case (it is impossible to consider him an enemy combatant) and is no longer in use. There is no reason to believe that someone who goes through the Federal civilian criminal justice system will be inevitably subject to torture.
  - indlebe 13y ago
    >There is no reason to believe that someone who goes through the Federal civilian criminal justice system will be inevitably subject to torture. Do you consider solitary torture? Whistleblowers have been subjected to brutal solitary conditions, and they don't even consider him that.
  - betterunix 13y ago
    His first stop in the US justice system would almost certainly be solitary confinement, which is widely held to be a form of torture. I suppose he might not be thrown into solitary; he might be kept with other prisoners who have been told that he is a CIA assassin sent to kill them: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/30/john-kiriakou-letter_n_3359938.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/30/john-kiriakou-lette...
    - rayiner 13y ago
      Jesus, solitary confinement is not "widely held to be a form of torture." That's totally absurd and makes the term meaningless.
Demiurge 13y ago
It's not the same thing. Venezuela underwent serious internal conflict, and has to constantly fight US sponsored propaganda and activism. As disrespectful as it seems, the state of Venezuela has a perfectly good reason to spy on international phone conversation between two people who would like to overthrow the regime, and who US cheers on to do so, hoping gain more influence. It doesn't mean that the state of Venezuela spies on all of its citizens.
- Demiurge 13y ago
  Oh yeah, let's downmod the only comment that points out spying on international phone calls is inherently different from domestic spying.
  - aclevernickname 13y ago
    I upvoted you, but understand that people are thinking with their gut (Stephen Colbert "Truthiness"-style) on this issue. We as a community seem to be embracing "no surveillance ever" over "spy on our enemies". I'm not sure I can disagree with it, but it's definitely not for the most noble/informed reasons.
gasull 13y ago
> You've got to see the irony in taking asylum in a country where the kinds of spying he blew the whistle on in the first place are brazenly displayed on public television Screw irony. It seems people stop thinking when they find irony in a situation. Does Snowden have better options? No. So he has no choice but accepting asylum in a non-free country, no matter how ironic it might result.

fatjokes 13y ago

I totally agree that it is ironic. I just don't think it should detract from his main point, and personally, I'm bothered by how many people are trying to shift the focus to that. In the beginning, Snowden stated he didn't want the news to be focused on him (see how that's turned out) but instead focus on the NSA. I'm sure he wants it to be focused on Russia's human rights abuses even less (there's plenty of coverage on that independent of him).

indlebe 13y ago
Agreed. Tu quoque is really prevalent in this thread.
- mindslight 13y ago
  Actually, no it's not. Compare to a thread about Assange. Snowden's revelations are apparently really hard to ignore.
mpyne 13y ago
> In the beginning, Snowden stated he didn't want the news to be focused on him (see how that's turned out) but instead focus on the NSA. People keep talking about what Snowden said, but why do they not look at what he did? If he really wanted to be out of the news it would be easy. Just ask Thomas Drake. Instead he's turned himself into a longtailed human interest story, despite his protestations to the contrary. If he's smart enough to act as a network structural hacker then surely he's smart enough to recall what types of stories drive the most media coverage in the U.S. His job in this was to get the evidence out there, let civil rights groups use it to carry on the fight, and to get himself back out of the media spotlight. Instead he's and WikiLeaks are sucking up all the oxygen from the EFF and ACLU.

joezydeco 13y ago

Is he wanted for espionage in Venezuela? He's asking for asylum from the United States Government, not from surveillance in general.

drivebyacct2 13y ago

And if Venezuela went around spying on the entire world while having world cop complex, maybe your point would have some weight.

sharpneli 13y ago

Does he have any other options? Do you think he would do this if he had any other choice? If he doesn't accept them he is going to be sent into US and tortured. It's either asylum from a non 'free' country or torture.

GabrielF00 13y ago
You're not only making a claim that he might be tortured but that any interaction that he would have with the US criminal justice system would inevitably result in torture. That's just ridiculous. Yes, in the decade after 9/11 a number of people were subjected to interrogation techniques that many people (including myself) would consider torture. However, this happened under a legal theory that would not apply in Snowden's case (it is impossible to consider him an enemy combatant) and is no longer in use. There is no reason to believe that someone who goes through the Federal civilian criminal justice system will be inevitably subject to torture.
- indlebe 13y ago
  >There is no reason to believe that someone who goes through the Federal civilian criminal justice system will be inevitably subject to torture. Do you consider solitary torture? Whistleblowers have been subjected to brutal solitary conditions, and they don't even consider him that.
- betterunix 13y ago
  His first stop in the US justice system would almost certainly be solitary confinement, which is widely held to be a form of torture. I suppose he might not be thrown into solitary; he might be kept with other prisoners who have been told that he is a CIA assassin sent to kill them: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/30/john-kiriakou-letter_n_3359938.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/30/john-kiriakou-lette...
  - rayiner 13y ago
    Jesus, solitary confinement is not "widely held to be a form of torture." That's totally absurd and makes the term meaningless.

Demiurge 13y ago

It's not the same thing. Venezuela underwent serious internal conflict, and has to constantly fight US sponsored propaganda and activism. As disrespectful as it seems, the state of Venezuela has a perfectly good reason to spy on international phone conversation between two people who would like to overthrow the regime, and who US cheers on to do so, hoping gain more influence. It doesn't mean that the state of Venezuela spies on all of its citizens.

Demiurge 13y ago
Oh yeah, let's downmod the only comment that points out spying on international phone calls is inherently different from domestic spying.
- aclevernickname 13y ago
  I upvoted you, but understand that people are thinking with their gut (Stephen Colbert "Truthiness"-style) on this issue. We as a community seem to be embracing "no surveillance ever" over "spy on our enemies". I'm not sure I can disagree with it, but it's definitely not for the most noble/informed reasons.

gasull 13y ago

> You've got to see the irony in taking asylum in a country where the kinds of spying he blew the whistle on in the first place are brazenly displayed on public television Screw irony. It seems people stop thinking when they find irony in a situation. Does Snowden have better options? No. So he has no choice but accepting asylum in a non-free country, no matter how ironic it might result.