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These nations, including Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador have my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights viol

These nations, including Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador have my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless. Are people really not bothered at the irony in this sentence? Russia, as a country that stands against abuse of the powerless by the powerful? http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/12/world/europe/russian-court-convicts-a-kremlin-critic-posthumously.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/12/world/europe/russian-court... If the posthumous prosecution of Sergei L. Magnitsky, the lawyer who was jailed as he tried to expose a huge government tax fraud and died four years ago in a Russian prison after being denied proper medical care, seemed surreal from the moment the authorities announced it, the verdict and sentencing on Thursday did not disappoint. By all accounts, it was Russia’s first trial of a dead man, and in the tiny third-floor courtroom of the Tverskoi District Court, it took the judge, Igor B. Alisov, more than an hour and a half to read his decision pronouncing Mr. Magnitsky guilty of tax evasion. It doesn't matter if it is hypocritical of an American like me to point this out, when it goes on in my country/government as well - but I find it willfully ignorant to label the Russian government as a defender of human rights like this. edit: here is some more reading on Russia and this topic: http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/04/24/russia-worst-human-rights-climate-post-soviet-era http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/04/24/russia-worst-human-rights...

Grue3 13y ago
As a Russian, this statement really rustled my jimmies. I hope US catches Snowden, and he rots in prison for the rest of his life. Though he still would be better off than Magnitsky.
- Karunamon 13y ago
  "Rotting in prison" is the least of Snowden's worries. We have precedent in what will happen, he'll be tortured just like Manning. And shame on you for venerating rule of law over right and wrong.
  - Grue3 13y ago
    The right thing for him to do would be to criticize Russian human right violations, especially against whistleblowers like him. The wrong and cowardly thing to do is to praise Russia for not handing his sorry ass to Americans as if it's some sort of victory for human rights.
    - Karunamon 13y ago
      I praise actions more than intents, thank you very much.
  - a-priori 13y ago
    Rule of law would be a step up from how we're seeing the US behave right now.
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  Are you serious? You think it would set a good precedent that the guy who blew the whistle on the world wide spying going on ends up rotting in jail? That helps us how exactly?
- VladRussian2 13y ago
  As a Russian you would understand that the price Russians would charge for not handing Snowden's ass to Americans would be high. "Either praise our human rights or go for a fair trial without prolonged pre-trial unusual and cruel punishment" - an offer one can hardly refuse.
- rfctr 13y ago
  As a Russian, I'm proud of good things my government does (including Snowden's case) and ashamed of bad things it does (those things are offtopic in this discussion though).
glesica 13y ago
I agree. I am personally very supportive of what Snowden has done and I want him to remain free (the torture that has been inflicted on Bradley Manning is totally unconscionable). But at the same time, I do recognize that there is always danger in playing realpolitik ("the enemy of my enemy is my friend", in this case), at any level.
fatjokes 13y ago
> Are people really not bothered at the irony in this sentence? Russia, as a country that stands against abuse of the powerless by the powerful? I'm more bothered by your sentence. Russia and China are undoubtedly worse offenders than the US when it comes to human rights (well, at least historically, in this day and age the US seems to be racing to catch up). However, this alone is never a valid reason to discount their criticisms of US actions. I know you're referring to Snowden's inclusion of Russia on that list, but in this case, they (and maybe China) are the only ones who can stand up against America. Clearly Ecuador fell with a single phone call. I don't think it's hypocritical for you to point this out, but it simply should not detract from the rest of his statement. Russia has not handed him over---the least he can do is not bite the hand shielding him. I, for one, am glad that people aren't bothered by it.
- brown9-2 13y ago
  I see a large difference in not biting the hand that feeds you and labeling that country as "stand[ing] against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless". It turns his crusade from one which is anti-pervasive-surveillance to anti-US-government.
  - fatjokes 13y ago
    His crusade from the beginning has been anti-surveillance in the US. Nobody doubts that Russia and China are doing the same---it's simply what's expected (unfortunately). From the beginning, his stated goal was simply to end this practice in America. As for his first statement, I simply don't read too much into it. My only take-away was "thanks for not turning me over". He's an expert on how the NSA is conducting surveillance---not on which countries are authorities on human rights.
    - tome 13y ago
      > From the beginning, his stated goal was simply to end this practice in America. I don't think this was true, otherwise I would feel unconditional support for him. He has released leaks about US spying on external targets and aims to flee to countries which have very poor relationships with the US. This muddies the waters considerably. Personally I think it weakens his message, and this disappoints me.
marze 13y ago
If you expect it is possible to find a perfect government on this planet, think again.
- tptacek 13y ago
  And? Fuck it, let's go live in North Korea?
- tome 13y ago
  Agreed! So why not side with the liberal West, which is very much the least of many evils, rather than run away to despotic regimes like Russia? [EDIT: I mean side with the West whilst at the same time thoroughly taking them to task for their own rights violations]
  - methehack 13y ago
    I think he's 'siding' with anyone that will let him rent an apartment and live like a human being. I'm sure he'd prefer France, but they need to offer and he needs to get out of Russia.
  - takluyver 13y ago
    Since he has taken the US to task, it looks like anywhere in the 'liberal West' will probably just lob him back to the US to face whatever the authorities can cook up for him. His point isn't any less valid because he wants to avoid that.
  - jellicle 13y ago
    Is there a country in the liberal West that has offered him asylum? If not, how are they "the least of evils", since they will hand him over to the U.S. to be tortured?
  - betterunix 13y ago
    The liberal West where laws are enforced by teams of soldiers that conduct armed invasions of civilian homes, threatening bystander's lives, killing their pets, destroying property, and never being held accountable for any of it? The US may be better than Russia when it comes to human rights, but that is not really a strong statement. Snowden has sided with the West. If the government were never embarrassed by its bad behavior, we would keep losing our rights until eventually there was nothing left but tyranny hiding behind a constitutional facade. It would not help anyone for Snowden to return to the USA at this point. He will never have access to classified information again, and in all likelihood he would find himself in solitary confinement until the end of his life.
mtgx 13y ago
It's a defender of human rights in this case. You're implying US is a better country when it comes to human rights, but I don't see US defending his human rights. In fact, it's breaking many international laws trying to get him. Also, I have to wonder what would've happened if there was any other weaker Russian president in place. I never liked Putin, but seeing how so many "democratic" countries were so quick to follow US' commands, and break international laws for US, just sickened me. There's a difference between a partner and an ally, and a master. You can still stand up to your allies or partners at any time, if you disagree with their actions.
- tptacek 13y ago
  It's also entirely possible that the US has broken no laws, and done nothing more than make phone calls requesting extradition. A difference between my comment and yours is that mine (in this case) doesn't claim to know things that it can't possibly know.
  - fatjokes 13y ago
    > It's also entirely possible that the US has broken no laws, and done nothing more than make phone calls requesting extradition. I imagine they haven't. The bully who demands your lunch money hasn't hit you in the face either. The threat is merely implied.
  - acqq 13y ago
    It's also entirely possible that the US has broken no laws, and done nothing more than make phone calls requesting extradition. Just a phone call: "A nice little country you have there, wouldn't it be pity if something happened to it?" Just as the real example: it was reported that the existing trading arrangements were in question for some countries in Latin America.
  - revelation 13y ago
    I don't think anyone ever coded gunboat diplomacy into law. (You seem obsessed with laws, as if they possess value and worth in and of themselves, when really they are a very high latency sidechannel of society and power)
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
revelation 13y ago
So what? He is stuck in an russian airport. He dosn't have the luxury to wait for the world to converge to utopia.
felideon 13y ago
As well as Venezuela[1][2]. Maduro is an extension of Chavez' regime. [1] http://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela http://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela [2] http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/03/05/venezuela-chavez-s-authoritarian-legacy http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/03/05/venezuela-chavez-s-author...
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  A lot of false information was published about Chavez but he was one of the few people who stopped a US-based coup in his country [1]. [1] https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/03/09/nytc-m09.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/03/09/nytc-m09.html
nsxwolf 13y ago
It sounds like they're getting to him already. He's the next Philip Agee and the US government couldn't be happier about that. You say you're against warrantless domestic spying? You must be a commie traitor! The only way Snowden can win now is to come home and let himself become a martyr.
- JonFish85 13y ago
  "The only way Snowden can win now is to come home and let himself become a martyr." Even then, I'm not sure he "wins". People have a very, very short attention span. He'd be forgotten before the sentencing was handed down, most likely. From a legal point of view, the case is pretty simple: did you release documents you swore not to release? Yes? Penalty is X years in prison. I don't see much martyrdom there. He won't be killed, he won't be tortured (he may be in solitary, which may be for his own safety more than anything else, whether he's a suicide risk or at risk of being murdered in prison -- just my opinion), so there isn't much to be get all that enraged about (beyond what he's already leaked). The time would probably be taken to put together some evidence, figure out exactly what was leaked, and how. I'm sure there are many, many things he'd get charged with, so there's a lot of research to get done, and since it's sensitive information, there needs to be a lot of care taken to figure out what was accessed and just as importantly what wasn't accessed. By then, Kim Kardashian will be working on a divorce or another baby ("South", anyone?), Aaron Hernandez will be up for appeal or something and the public won't will care much about this.
  - thangalin 13y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#Torture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#Torture "Solitary confinement is considered to be a form of psychological torture when the period of confinement is longer than a few weeks or is continued indefinitely. Negative psychological effects have been documented, leading one judge in a 2001 suit to rule that 'Solitary confinement units are virtual incubators of psychoses—seeding illness in otherwise healthy inmates and exacerbating illness in those already suffering from mental infirmities.'"
stelonix 13y ago
Why would anyone be bothered? I believe this whole ordeal has shown no western country takes human rights seriously. We've known for a good while about Guantanamo, shady extraditions (from US allies), Israel's complete disregard for basic human rights on the West Bank... This isn't just western countries though, no country whatsoever seems to care about human rights unless it gives them a political edge. What Russia is doing with their anti-gay laws for example, is similar to what western countries have done to privacy, all in the name of an abstract idea like terrorism/protect the children/drugs. Just because Snowden is against human rights violations it does not make him exempt of having to dance with the devil. Being a complete rebel, even in a world where it's obviously ruled by fake morals, is not a wise thing to do, specially when your life is at stake.
- contingencies 13y ago
  I believe this whole ordeal has shown no western country takes human rights seriously. Spot on. Given this situation, as some of the still relatively empowered, IMHO we in the technology community therefore have a moral obligation to do what we can to support any potential remedies to the situation.
unclebucknasty 13y ago
Funny: when I read the article, it struck me that a person seeking asylum elsewhere for revealing secret spying by his country, then being hunted by his country as a criminal sounds like something you would hear from some totalitarian country (yes, even Russia), but not America. I guess I am more concerned about what's happening to our country now than with litigating the human rights history of tangentially involved nations.
flyinRyan 13y ago
>Russia, as a country that stands against abuse of the powerless by the powerful? It's perfectly possible to be a gross violator of human rights and then later (or even simultaneously) defend human rights.
- marshray 13y ago
  We need to take our human rights wherever we can get them. No one has any extra to spare, least of all Snowden.
Shivetya 13y ago
I am more bothered no European country stood up to offer him asylum. Granted its laughable to think the US would be safe haven for someone from the EU, but it needs to start somewhere. As I posted before, dreamers of one world government only need to see what is happening to here to understand the folly of that ideal.
- stefantalpalaru 13y ago
  No single European country can risk starting a conflict with the US and the European Union as a whole is not yet homogeneous enough to take this kind of decisions. Delaying the trade agreement was pretty much the extent of what it can do right now.
perlpimp 13y ago
Situational democracy. Democracy that is more democratic for select few and rest have to suffer injustices and rights transgressions of quasi-orwellian - in Russia and US. Somewhat like equality of proletariat - where some are more equal than others. Such is the sign of the brave new world.

Grue3 13y ago

As a Russian, this statement really rustled my jimmies. I hope US catches Snowden, and he rots in prison for the rest of his life. Though he still would be better off than Magnitsky.

Karunamon 13y ago
"Rotting in prison" is the least of Snowden's worries. We have precedent in what will happen, he'll be tortured just like Manning. And shame on you for venerating rule of law over right and wrong.
- Grue3 13y ago
  The right thing for him to do would be to criticize Russian human right violations, especially against whistleblowers like him. The wrong and cowardly thing to do is to praise Russia for not handing his sorry ass to Americans as if it's some sort of victory for human rights.
  - Karunamon 13y ago
    I praise actions more than intents, thank you very much.
- a-priori 13y ago
  Rule of law would be a step up from how we're seeing the US behave right now.
flyinRyan 13y ago
Are you serious? You think it would set a good precedent that the guy who blew the whistle on the world wide spying going on ends up rotting in jail? That helps us how exactly?
VladRussian2 13y ago
As a Russian you would understand that the price Russians would charge for not handing Snowden's ass to Americans would be high. "Either praise our human rights or go for a fair trial without prolonged pre-trial unusual and cruel punishment" - an offer one can hardly refuse.
rfctr 13y ago
As a Russian, I'm proud of good things my government does (including Snowden's case) and ashamed of bad things it does (those things are offtopic in this discussion though).

glesica 13y ago

I agree. I am personally very supportive of what Snowden has done and I want him to remain free (the torture that has been inflicted on Bradley Manning is totally unconscionable). But at the same time, I do recognize that there is always danger in playing realpolitik ("the enemy of my enemy is my friend", in this case), at any level.

fatjokes 13y ago

> Are people really not bothered at the irony in this sentence? Russia, as a country that stands against abuse of the powerless by the powerful? I'm more bothered by your sentence. Russia and China are undoubtedly worse offenders than the US when it comes to human rights (well, at least historically, in this day and age the US seems to be racing to catch up). However, this alone is never a valid reason to discount their criticisms of US actions. I know you're referring to Snowden's inclusion of Russia on that list, but in this case, they (and maybe China) are the only ones who can stand up against America. Clearly Ecuador fell with a single phone call. I don't think it's hypocritical for you to point this out, but it simply should not detract from the rest of his statement. Russia has not handed him over---the least he can do is not bite the hand shielding him. I, for one, am glad that people aren't bothered by it.

brown9-2 13y ago
I see a large difference in not biting the hand that feeds you and labeling that country as "stand[ing] against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless". It turns his crusade from one which is anti-pervasive-surveillance to anti-US-government.
- fatjokes 13y ago
  His crusade from the beginning has been anti-surveillance in the US. Nobody doubts that Russia and China are doing the same---it's simply what's expected (unfortunately). From the beginning, his stated goal was simply to end this practice in America. As for his first statement, I simply don't read too much into it. My only take-away was "thanks for not turning me over". He's an expert on how the NSA is conducting surveillance---not on which countries are authorities on human rights.
  - tome 13y ago
    > From the beginning, his stated goal was simply to end this practice in America. I don't think this was true, otherwise I would feel unconditional support for him. He has released leaks about US spying on external targets and aims to flee to countries which have very poor relationships with the US. This muddies the waters considerably. Personally I think it weakens his message, and this disappoints me.

marze 13y ago

If you expect it is possible to find a perfect government on this planet, think again.

tptacek 13y ago
And? Fuck it, let's go live in North Korea?
tome 13y ago
Agreed! So why not side with the liberal West, which is very much the least of many evils, rather than run away to despotic regimes like Russia? [EDIT: I mean side with the West whilst at the same time thoroughly taking them to task for their own rights violations]
- methehack 13y ago
  I think he's 'siding' with anyone that will let him rent an apartment and live like a human being. I'm sure he'd prefer France, but they need to offer and he needs to get out of Russia.
- takluyver 13y ago
  Since he has taken the US to task, it looks like anywhere in the 'liberal West' will probably just lob him back to the US to face whatever the authorities can cook up for him. His point isn't any less valid because he wants to avoid that.
- jellicle 13y ago
  Is there a country in the liberal West that has offered him asylum? If not, how are they "the least of evils", since they will hand him over to the U.S. to be tortured?
- betterunix 13y ago
  The liberal West where laws are enforced by teams of soldiers that conduct armed invasions of civilian homes, threatening bystander's lives, killing their pets, destroying property, and never being held accountable for any of it? The US may be better than Russia when it comes to human rights, but that is not really a strong statement. Snowden has sided with the West. If the government were never embarrassed by its bad behavior, we would keep losing our rights until eventually there was nothing left but tyranny hiding behind a constitutional facade. It would not help anyone for Snowden to return to the USA at this point. He will never have access to classified information again, and in all likelihood he would find himself in solitary confinement until the end of his life.

mtgx 13y ago

It's a defender of human rights in this case. You're implying US is a better country when it comes to human rights, but I don't see US defending his human rights. In fact, it's breaking many international laws trying to get him. Also, I have to wonder what would've happened if there was any other weaker Russian president in place. I never liked Putin, but seeing how so many "democratic" countries were so quick to follow US' commands, and break international laws for US, just sickened me. There's a difference between a partner and an ally, and a master. You can still stand up to your allies or partners at any time, if you disagree with their actions.

tptacek 13y ago
It's also entirely possible that the US has broken no laws, and done nothing more than make phone calls requesting extradition. A difference between my comment and yours is that mine (in this case) doesn't claim to know things that it can't possibly know.
- fatjokes 13y ago
  > It's also entirely possible that the US has broken no laws, and done nothing more than make phone calls requesting extradition. I imagine they haven't. The bully who demands your lunch money hasn't hit you in the face either. The threat is merely implied.
- acqq 13y ago
  It's also entirely possible that the US has broken no laws, and done nothing more than make phone calls requesting extradition. Just a phone call: "A nice little country you have there, wouldn't it be pity if something happened to it?" Just as the real example: it was reported that the existing trading arrangements were in question for some countries in Latin America.
- revelation 13y ago
  I don't think anyone ever coded gunboat diplomacy into law. (You seem obsessed with laws, as if they possess value and worth in and of themselves, when really they are a very high latency sidechannel of society and power)

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

revelation 13y ago

So what? He is stuck in an russian airport. He dosn't have the luxury to wait for the world to converge to utopia.

felideon 13y ago

As well as Venezuela[1][2]. Maduro is an extension of Chavez' regime. [1] http://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela http://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela [2] http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/03/05/venezuela-chavez-s-authoritarian-legacy http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/03/05/venezuela-chavez-s-author...

flyinRyan 13y ago
A lot of false information was published about Chavez but he was one of the few people who stopped a US-based coup in his country [1]. [1] https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/03/09/nytc-m09.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/03/09/nytc-m09.html

nsxwolf 13y ago

It sounds like they're getting to him already. He's the next Philip Agee and the US government couldn't be happier about that. You say you're against warrantless domestic spying? You must be a commie traitor! The only way Snowden can win now is to come home and let himself become a martyr.

JonFish85 13y ago
"The only way Snowden can win now is to come home and let himself become a martyr." Even then, I'm not sure he "wins". People have a very, very short attention span. He'd be forgotten before the sentencing was handed down, most likely. From a legal point of view, the case is pretty simple: did you release documents you swore not to release? Yes? Penalty is X years in prison. I don't see much martyrdom there. He won't be killed, he won't be tortured (he may be in solitary, which may be for his own safety more than anything else, whether he's a suicide risk or at risk of being murdered in prison -- just my opinion), so there isn't much to be get all that enraged about (beyond what he's already leaked). The time would probably be taken to put together some evidence, figure out exactly what was leaked, and how. I'm sure there are many, many things he'd get charged with, so there's a lot of research to get done, and since it's sensitive information, there needs to be a lot of care taken to figure out what was accessed and just as importantly what wasn't accessed. By then, Kim Kardashian will be working on a divorce or another baby ("South", anyone?), Aaron Hernandez will be up for appeal or something and the public won't will care much about this.
- thangalin 13y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#Torture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#Torture "Solitary confinement is considered to be a form of psychological torture when the period of confinement is longer than a few weeks or is continued indefinitely. Negative psychological effects have been documented, leading one judge in a 2001 suit to rule that 'Solitary confinement units are virtual incubators of psychoses—seeding illness in otherwise healthy inmates and exacerbating illness in those already suffering from mental infirmities.'"

stelonix 13y ago

Why would anyone be bothered? I believe this whole ordeal has shown no western country takes human rights seriously. We've known for a good while about Guantanamo, shady extraditions (from US allies), Israel's complete disregard for basic human rights on the West Bank... This isn't just western countries though, no country whatsoever seems to care about human rights unless it gives them a political edge. What Russia is doing with their anti-gay laws for example, is similar to what western countries have done to privacy, all in the name of an abstract idea like terrorism/protect the children/drugs. Just because Snowden is against human rights violations it does not make him exempt of having to dance with the devil. Being a complete rebel, even in a world where it's obviously ruled by fake morals, is not a wise thing to do, specially when your life is at stake.

contingencies 13y ago
I believe this whole ordeal has shown no western country takes human rights seriously. Spot on. Given this situation, as some of the still relatively empowered, IMHO we in the technology community therefore have a moral obligation to do what we can to support any potential remedies to the situation.

unclebucknasty 13y ago

Funny: when I read the article, it struck me that a person seeking asylum elsewhere for revealing secret spying by his country, then being hunted by his country as a criminal sounds like something you would hear from some totalitarian country (yes, even Russia), but not America. I guess I am more concerned about what's happening to our country now than with litigating the human rights history of tangentially involved nations.

flyinRyan 13y ago

>Russia, as a country that stands against abuse of the powerless by the powerful? It's perfectly possible to be a gross violator of human rights and then later (or even simultaneously) defend human rights.

marshray 13y ago
We need to take our human rights wherever we can get them. No one has any extra to spare, least of all Snowden.

Shivetya 13y ago

I am more bothered no European country stood up to offer him asylum. Granted its laughable to think the US would be safe haven for someone from the EU, but it needs to start somewhere. As I posted before, dreamers of one world government only need to see what is happening to here to understand the folly of that ideal.

stefantalpalaru 13y ago
No single European country can risk starting a conflict with the US and the European Union as a whole is not yet homogeneous enough to take this kind of decisions. Delaying the trade agreement was pretty much the extent of what it can do right now.

perlpimp 13y ago

Situational democracy. Democracy that is more democratic for select few and rest have to suffer injustices and rights transgressions of quasi-orwellian - in Russia and US. Somewhat like equality of proletariat - where some are more equal than others. Such is the sign of the brave new world.