18 ms·

Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

587 points by rosser 13y ago

kGrange 13y ago
I don't think this is about "taking a stand." As has been pointed out, Dark Tangent is himself working for the Feds. > recent revelations have made many in the community uncomfortable about this relationship. They just don't want to deal with fed vs. non-fed tensions at the con. Maybe they're afraid fights would break out.
Selfcommit 13y ago
HN effect on the site?
- dominicgs 13y ago
  There were issues yesterday too: https://twitter.com/_defcon_/status/354873376675868674 https://twitter.com/_defcon_/status/354873376675868674
ianhawes 13y ago
My understanding is that the overwhelming majority of Federal employees on official duty from FBI, DHS, DOD, NSA, etc.. that attend DEFCON (and related conferences) are actually not agents at all, but rather low ranking analysts whose job at the conferences are to assess the material presented and report back. This is opposed to, say, recruiting CIs or surveilling targets. Source: I asked a Fed.
- cheez 13y ago
  This is more about making a statement than anything else. Will the information still reach the feds? Sure. But the request is deliberately creating a delineation: the government is no longer for the people or part of the people, it exists for it's own sake. Will the government understand and ramp itself down? Whatever you thought about Ron Paul, his politics would have prevented all of this. All of the wars. All the foreign aid. And we would live in paradise ;)
  - bittired 13y ago
    > Whatever you thought about Ron Paul, his politics would have prevented all of this. All of the wars. All the foreign aid. And we would live in paradise ;) This made me laugh. Considering how much Republicans and Tea Partiers are ostracized for making cuts, just imagine how much people would come down on a fiscally conservative basically Libertarian candidate in 2016 (even if he runs as a Republican).
    - msandford 13y ago
      Ostracized by who? People in the media or regular working class folk who pay plenty but get little? My parents both work and make money and the only real benefits that they have gotten as a result of trillions spent on war is that they'll continue to pay taxes for the rehabilitation of the soldiers whose bodies and lives have been destroyed. They MIGHT collect on social security, etc but given that they're still at least 10 years from retirement, it's certainly nothing they can count on.
      - wavefunction 13y ago
        And given that there's been talk about raising the general Soc Sec boundary from 65 to 70, it's even more of a question if they will benefit... Both my parents have "retired" in the past year though they continue to work for money, and they were both a little bitter about how low the benefits are. I had to point out that at least they will probably get what they get. For those of us younger?
      - grogenaut 13y ago
        They get sub $5 gas. That's what the money is being spent on.
        msandford 13y ago
        The average car is driven say 10k miles per year. At 20mpg that's 500 gallons of gas. At $4 per gallon, it's $2k. At $8 per gallon, that's $4k. A difference of only $2k. I'm not sure that the money on wars is well spent (even in a callous, dollars only sense) if it's saving the average household $4k a year in gas money (two cars).
- sbierwagen 13y ago
  So what? They still work for law enforcement.
- a3n 13y ago
  "low ranking analysts whose job at the conferences are to assess the material presented and report back." And maybe those people should go home and rethink their lives.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    "Man, I really shouldn't have designed that RFID toolbooth so oppressively.... I'll have to do better than that in the future. :("
    - a3n 13y ago
      Your point is taken, not all security work is oppressive. And my comment was calculated to be over the top. The narrower point being, of course, if you're involved in work that supports Constitutional violations, you should think about what you're doing. Hard. Because if your work supports these things, then you're destroying what you probably signed up to protect. Probably not your fault, the mission was hijacked. But now there's no way to pretend. So think about it, and ideally, act. And if you're just designing tollbooth security, then thanks for your service. :)
      - mpyne 13y ago
        > The narrower point being, of course, if you're involved in work that supports Constitutional violations, you should think about what you're doing. Hard. Well, even things like PRISM have valid Constitutional and national security usages. Things like metadata collection have been allowed for decades as well, under the auspices of valid law enforcement investigations. Holding all Internet traffic in a buffer for 5 years? Collecting all email metadata that passes by? Now that's getting risky, but how many people do you think are actually involved in that? And why is that less dangerous than CALEA (something which DEFCON didn't kick out the Feds for...)? If you flip the concept to instead be "could what I'm working on possibly be used for oppression" then there are a lot more government workers than you might think that would have to be introspective. It has the worse effect of muddying lines of responsibility ("I couldn't have done this bad thing if $FOO hadn't build it!"), which is another path we don't want to go down... the same logic that blames the analyst for creating a process with valid purpose and bad effect could be used to blame the HR rep for hiring the analyst, or the janitor for keeping his workspace clean. And all the while we should be pointing our fingers at the person who actually did something wrong!
- BoyWizard 13y ago
  >but rather low ranking analysts whose job at the conferences are to assess the material presented and report back So? I work for a private company. I 'report back' on the cool shit I saw, let people know what was around, what was popular, etc. It's a learning experience. Saying they 'report back' is useless. If you go to a con and don't talk with other people about the stuff you saw there it's almost wasteful. I think I know what you meant though - they go and see what all the 'underground hackers' are up to.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- codezero 13y ago
  It's not just you.
femto 13y ago
Did anyone else look at the defcon21 logo and see a hand giving "the finger"? ("def" are the fingers, 21 is the palm, the top of the d is an extended finger)
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
jonathanwallace 13y ago
Try the non-SSL version if you're having trouble accessing the site. http://www.defcon.org/#dc21fedbreak http://www.defcon.org/#dc21fedbreak
danielsiders 13y ago
Entry (since the site is down): "Feds, we need some time apart. Posted 7.10.13 For over two decades DEF CON has been an open nexus of hacker culture, a place where seasoned pros, hackers, academics, and feds can meet, share ideas and party on neutral territory. Our community operates in the spirit of openness, verified trust, and mutual respect. When it comes to sharing and socializing with feds, recent revelations have made many in the community uncomfortable about this relationship. Therefore, I think it would be best for everyone involved if the feds call a "time-out" and not attend DEF CON this year. This will give everybody time to think about how we got here, and what comes next. The Dark Tangent"
- codyb 13y ago
  Will this actually affect the feds ability to attend or will they just attend in plain clothes? Or will they be able to attend as feds and just be looked down upon?
  - welder 13y ago
    Feds always attend in plain clothes so this effectively does nothing. I also wonder if a Fed only means investigative or law enforcement type Feds or also includes federally employed IT peoples.
    - iamtherockstar 13y ago
      Last year they had Gen. Keith Alexander, NSA chief. There are usually a handful of talks by "feds". I wonder if their talk schedule has gotten messed up because of this.
    - tippytop 13y ago
      I don't think the intention is to create a moat around the conference. Things have been getting quite cozy between these two [1]; I'm sure recent revelations don't play well with this conference's attendee base. [1] https://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9229756/NSA_chief_asks_hackers_at_Defcon_for_help_securing_cyberspace https://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9229756/NSA_chief_as...
typicalrunt 13y ago
I applaud Jeff's (DarkTangent) stance on this. I've been to 7 Defcons now and the Feds have always been treated fairly. Even the media has been treated with respect, so long as they are transparent and honest about being media [1]. Honesty and openness have been betrayed this year with the Snowden leaks, and I'm glad people are finally taking a stand. I'm curious other security conventions will take the same stance. [1] One year a reporter disguised herself as an attendee instead of admitting she was a reporter, and was attempting to get hackers on record saying that they've hacked into <this> and <that> important system. She was found out and summarily chased (literally) out the convention.
- EthanHeilman 13y ago
  I'm extremely impressed with DarkTangent, this must have been a difficult move for him to make, especially given that the NSA Director(DernZa) was the keynote speaker at the last defcon. He is probably getting a mountain range of shit right now from the feds. " Over the past two decades, hackers at Defcon and the feds have been circling each other suspiciously. The nation's top "spook" -- National Security Agency Director Gen. Keith Alexander -- giving a keynote at the hacker confab, shows just how much tensions have mellowed." http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57481689-83/nsa-director-finally-greets-defcon-hackers/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57481689-83/nsa-director-fi... Things don't look so mellow anymore.
  - mcantelon 13y ago
    >He is probably getting a mountain range of shit right now from the feds. I doubt it. It's just PR. Defcon will invite the feds back once everything blows over, PRISM or not.
    - marshray 13y ago
      DT is famous for cultivating controversy for PR. AIUI, in the past Defcon has orchestrate [big company's] lawyers literally walking on stage to shut down a vulnerability disclosure talk.
smokeyj 13y ago
As hackers we have an ethical obligation to refuse service to tyrants and dictators. Like mercenaries who profiteer off war, we should ostracize those who act against humanity.
- kpommerenke 13y ago
  Exactly: Stay away from North Korea
- mpyne 13y ago
  We also have an ethical obligation not to abuse the computer systems of those less skilled than us, but that obligation has hardly stopped that kind of stuff.
iamtherockstar 13y ago
"Begun, the 0wn wars have."
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
maqr 13y ago
Does a "time-out" mean that they're discouraged from attending or that they won't be issued badges?
- britta 13y ago
  They are politely discouraged from attending. I imagine that a person who says "I'm a fed" while buying a badge would not be issued one, but Defcon has no way to avoid issuing badges to feds who don't disclose their status.
  - fixxer 13y ago
    Hmm... forgive my ignorance, but do they have the right to not issue a badge to anyone based on occupation? Sounds like discrimination. Hope they don't sue. ;)
    - nknighthb 13y ago
      Defcon is not a government entity, it has freedom of association rights, and law enforcement officers are not a suspect classification.
      - sigzero 13y ago
        It could probably be considered public though and therefore freedom of association wouldn't apply.
        nknighthb 13y ago
        Freedom of association always applies, the only question is whether government can and has overridden it. For "has", neither Congress nor Nevada has attempted to make discrimination based on employer illegal, in a place of public accommodation or otherwise. There can be no illegal discrimination when there is no relevant law, making the case moot from its inception. And even if they had attempted such (that is, we move to the "can" analysis), we know from the Supreme Court's unanimous decision in Hurley that it's difficult to do even where there is an entanglement of public and private interests, the harm to the private interests is extremely attenuated, and the excluded group is arguably quasi-suspect.
ENOTTY 13y ago
So I assume Dark Tangent won't attend his own con? Jeff Moss sits on the Homeland Security Advisory Board and is the CSO of ICANN.[1] If that's not "the man", I don't know what is. [1] http://www.dhs.gov/homeland-security-advisory-council-members http://www.dhs.gov/homeland-security-advisory-council-member...
- dfc 13y ago
  I can understand your position with DHS. But CANN is hardly the man. Would you prefer a world where ICANN is unable to find competent security people because working for ICANN is some how associated with evil?
  - anonymous 13y ago
    Supporting ICANN is hardly working in the name of "good". Sure, working with ICANN may not be associated with "evil". However to those in the know, it is associated with greed under the guise of "service to the public". Personally, I'd prefer a world where ICANN, namely the centralization and commercialization of domain names to benefit a select few insiders and an array of parasitic sleazebags, gave way to a non-antagonistic naming system harmonized with trademark law and actually run transparently as a public service, for the public benefit.
    - contingencies 13y ago
      However to those in the know, it is associated with greed under the guise of "service to the public". Don't forget a US-centric internet, far more readily controlled and manipulated by that state than any other.
      - snowwrestler 13y ago
        I have heard exactly zero accusations that ICANN is doing anything to control or manipulate the Internet for the good of the U.S. None of the recent revelations about Prism, tapping cables, etc. have anything to do with ICANN.
Canada 13y ago
The feds have all the 0 day and privileged access now. What do they need Def Con for anyway? Well, I guess they'll miss out on getting drunk.
- dmoy 13y ago
  Recruiting?
  - fixxer 13y ago
    God help the poor schmucks left to run that booth this year. (I've never been; I presume it is like most other conferences and you've got a slough of bored recruiters staffing info booths?)
    - merlincorey 13y ago
      They don't get a booth.
    - X-Istence 13y ago
      No info booths, they are lucky if they get a table, but even then outright using it for recruiting is not allowed. Last year they had an Enigma machine on display.
  - readme 13y ago
    Recruiting for IT jobs at alphabet agencies.
- a3n 13y ago
  It's probably a worthwhile recruiting venue, even if they just get one every year or two.
_delirium 13y ago
A curious aspect is that the person who wrote this message (Jeff Moss) is actually a fed himself. Does he plan to exclude himself from the conference?
mirkules 13y ago
I'm skeptical. For the past few years that I've been attending, defcon felt at some times like an instrument for fed recruiting while paying lip service to its original "underground" feel. DT's message almost felt like posturing to underline the latter rather than a sincere statement to curtail the former. I won't pretend that I'm a long time attendee (my first was DC16), so I would love to hear from some more seasoned attendees if my impression is correct. Edit: the reason for that impression is that there is no declaration of a policy in his message (e.g. "feds are prohibited from soliciting employees at DC21"), rather a soft "time-out". With all due respect to DT, neither we nor the feds are in the third grade. Contrast this with their strict journalist policy and recall how that undercover reporter was outed and kicked out/chased away a few years ago.
- _delirium 13y ago
  You might have felt like that because the original organizer, "Dark Tangent" aka Jeff Moss, turned state's evidence in 2009. He's been on the federal payroll ever since. Here, he's trying to pose as an anti-fed activist while simultaneously drawing a Department of Homeland Security paycheck.
- dobbsbob 13y ago
  I went to DC in the 90s and almost everybody you ran into was doing something illegal, like the Shadowcrew guys and a team of motorola hackers I mainly hung out with. Almost every talk gave hommage to whatever current hacker was in prison or on the run, and typically was anti fed, anti surviellance and anti copyright. Totally different now because at the time felt like the whole culture was under seige by overzealous feds and there was constant rumours of feds watching the exits with surveillance like we were the mafia or something
- forgottenpass 13y ago
  I had written more here, but even after cutting down this post is still to long. Basically the evolution of DC is in large part a response to its own success. 13k attendees (IIRC) is going to change things, and any difference makes it easy to get disenchanted and/or nay-say. I don't think the attitude and execution have gotten worse overall, just different. the reason for that impression is that there is no declaration of a policy in his message Defcon knows they can't dictate everything that happens, only influence it. Feds are going to be there one way or another, thats why DT had an "invite the feds" attitude from the beginning. To hear some goons tell it, the "spot the fed" game was created as a social device to reduce animosity between attendees and law enforcement while also reminding everyone that strangers at the convention aren't your friends. Even with enforcing hard and fast ideas (like the journalism boundary) they start off with a light touch. They gave the reporter many chances to stop snooping about and get a press badge. Before letting us into the convention center on day one red shirts were giving out warnings. That was days before she was publicly called out in one of the panels and marched out of the Riv. As you say, we're not in third grade. But defcon does know it, and understand they can't keep people out a no-names cash-transaction event based on attendee employer. The most they can hope to do is say "Hey, maybe not so much this year?" Time will tell how it plays out, but the last thing I would call it is an attempt to save face or change the image of the event. I thought it was 100% DT playing a joke at first, and I still think its a joke now, just one with a message.
microb 13y ago
Keith Alexander, Director of the NSA spoke at DEFCON last year to a standing-room-only audience. Every year "the feds" have a presence at DEFCON.
- iuguy 13y ago
  And he's the Keynote speaker at Blackhat the week before.
david_shaw 13y ago
This is going to be my tenth (?!) year at DEF CON. The culture of DEF CON, and especially its evolution, is a very interesting one. When I first attended DEF CON, it was a bunch of seemingly scary hackers. Fortunately, it turns out most of them were amazing people. As the conference grew (and changed venues several times), the culture began to evolve. The barrier to entry--in terms of being "accepted" into the subculture--lowered significantly. DEF CON stopped being a scary place, with goons that would "de-tech" you and throw you in the pool, and more of a mainstream event. For the most part, I'm completely supportive of where DEF CON's going. I'm definitely supportive of air conditioning in the venue, instead of standing outside in the sweltering Las Vegas summertime heat. That said, though, it's not really a "hacker conference" anymore. Not more than its sister conference, Black Hat, or something like RSA, anyway. DEF CON used to be about hacking. Not in the HN sense, but in the "illegal entry into networks" definition. Now, it's less about hacking and more about the actual information security industry; this is probably related to the fact that everyone I knew at the first DEF CON I attended (myself included) currently works in the infosec industry. With growth, exposure, and the inclusion of white hats, DEF CON naturally became a recruiting ground for federal agencies, including law enforcement, the military, intelligence, etc. The 'spot the fed' game that began as a joke (with prizes!) soon seemed silly, since there were so many federal employees/recruiters/agents. I'm all for DEF CON entering the mainstream. It's a conference and community that I've grown to love, and the lessons I've learned there (not to mention the friends I've made) have helped me immensely--both personally and professionally. That said, though, there's pretty much zero chance that this announcement DT made will have any effect whatsoever on federal agents, recruiters or representatives attending the con. More than anything, it's a huge publicity stunt. After all, most of the staff and "old school" attendees work for "the man" now. For some, like me, it's just hacking for money; many, though, actually do work for defense and intelligence contractors. Should they be banned because of their affiliation? Personally, I don't think so. PS: If you're considering going to DEF CON and you've never been, you should! It's a booze-fueled learning, partying and networking event unlike any other. Plus, you get to hang out in Vegas for a weekend!
- merlincorey 13y ago
  I'm pretty sure this is a joke since DT himself can be considered a fed, and there are lots of Defcon leadership that work with/for the feds as well.
exgeocitiesuser 13y ago
interseting times we live in
rawrly 13y ago
Defcon is cancelled.
- merlincorey 13y ago
  Just confirmed on IRC, Defcon is cancelled.
  - X-Istence 13y ago
    Just got this confirmed through an anonymous source at DEF CON, it has indeed been canceled. With feds no longer being welcome there simply would not be enough money made from ticket sales to pay the costs for the venue.
    - throwawayDC21 13y ago
      Come on guys, you know we don't cancel DEF CON until the badge line reaches 200 people.
- 67726e 13y ago
  Could you post a link or a screenshot to verify your claim?
- TallGuyShort 13y ago
  Is it an inside joke to always say defcon is cancelled? (Not that you'd tell me if it was...) "Is Defcon cancelled" is in the FAQ: https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-14/dc-14-faq.html#Is%20DEF%C2%A0CON%C2%A0Cancelled https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-14/dc-14-faq.html#Is%20DE...
- himayal4r 13y ago
  i can confirm this.
anonymous 13y ago
http://news.cnet.com/8301-27080_3-20095649-245/when-hackers-become-the-man/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-27080_3-20095649-245/when-hackers-... In the early years, DefCon founder Jeff Moss used to say "if you're 20 and you're working for The Man, you're a loser,"... "Ten years ago, Moss said 'if you're 30 and you're not working for The Man, you're a loser.' And now he agreed that at 40 he is The Man.'"
anonymous 13y ago
I will attempt to translate Jeff's short message: In light of recent events, this is not an opportune time for recruiting and so the feds will not be attending the conference in their usual numbers. However, they will of course still be monitoring all communcations at the event, so they will be there in spirit.
rdl 13y ago
I was assuming Defcon 21 would be down on fed count this year due to 1) the sequester hurting travel budgets and 2) recent (well, in the past year) high profile wasting of money in Las Vegas by the GSA. There's also OHM running in parallel, which will draw off some of the European attendees (probably not law enforcement/intel, though). If I got to pick between OHM and PW/BS/BH/DC (all 4 running in Las Vegas that week), I'd probably pick Ohm.
ferdo 13y ago
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair
mcantelon 13y ago
Note the "this year". Defcon is just looking after their branding. If they had concern for privacy they wouldn't have had the NSA directory keynote last year and let him lie to their audience.
adaml_623 13y ago
Is it possible that this post is a message to many who work for the government to evaluate what they are doing and decide whether they are comfortable with what their job involves. After all there's a huge spectrum of possible actions between whistle-blowing and unthinkingly following procedures. And you can work for change from within... perhaps.
tomgirl1 13y ago
The "feds" in cooperation with silicon valley invented the Internet going back to the late 60's, so it should be no surprise that every technology from the bottom of the stack to the top is completely insecure. Although the exploitation of it on a mass scale as we are seeing is a scurrilous, scandalous practice, we as folks who pretend to know what we are talking about, need to realize that. If we are committed to righting the ship many things have to go out of the window. TCP/IP, DNS, proxies forward or reverse, CA Certificate authorities, MAC addresses, software based kernel extensions. Feeling up to it?
mcot2 13y ago
DefCon is a joke. Nobody with any skill takes that conference seriously. This is a complete farce as one of the key speakers last year was Gen Keith Alexander. NSA was fairly open about recruiting directly from DefCon and DefCon leadership had no problem with it. Anyone with even a slight security background could have predicted Prism and other programs just by the AT&T whistleblower from the mid 2000's. DefCon is just too big, too mainstream for any real technical value. I don't need to fly to Vegas to watch umpteen panel discussions with crazy EFF people.
- certific 13y ago
  Which conferences do you consider decent for someone with skills?
  - mcot2 13y ago
    There are a lot of smaller technical trainings and conferences once you get to a certain level. I like to rate conferences by the technical quality of what is being presented. Am I constantly being blown away by new ideas? What can I use in my own projects to make them better? At too many defcons I have seen nonsense panel discussions and presentations by people with little qualifications. Some presentations I have seen have obviously been created one or two nights beforehand. I've even seen a troll presentation where slides with walls of text were read word for word in a monotone voice. I have no idea who this person is or how old this list is and I have not attended every one of these conferences but you might take a look at this: http://faculty.cs.tamu.edu/guofei/sec_conf_stat.htm http://faculty.cs.tamu.edu/guofei/sec_conf_stat.htm
GoldfishCRM 13y ago
Smart move. Then people not feds has to come in order to prove they are not feds.
Shank 13y ago
It seems quite clear to me that Dark Tangent is attempting to stop something bad from happening at DEF CON. He doesn't want a fight or a brawl breaking out, or implied threats or negative community interaction. His advice isn't so much a 'no feds allowed' sign, but more of an open warning that coming as a Fed might cause undesired tension and circumstances that weren't previously present in such high volumes. Calling the situation ironic because DT is a fed is unrelated - he may work for the government, but he isn't in a position that has a conflict of interest with a hacker conference (read: he doesn't work for the NSA). If you say "Dark Tangent" to a person in the security community, people recognize him as the creator of a hacker conference; not a government employee.
gavinlynch 13y ago
Is half the Security industry just attending conferences? Seriously.
GigabyteCoin 13y ago
If the feds can get air traffic controllers in other countries around the world to down the Bolivian President's jet... I don't think they'd have any trouble getting into DefCon if they really wanted to.
guiambros 13y ago
It's important to remember that DEF CON is not banning the feds, but instead asking them to not participate this year. There's a big difference here. The former is mandatory, unilateral; the other is an invite to pause and reconsider the relationship. Now I'm curious on how government agencies will respond. They may go anyway -- and have to deal with a very unwelcoming mood, or respect the request and give some space for the sec community to discuss the case more openly. I, for one, fully support DT's request, and really hope the feds understand that the problem is not who they are or what they represent, but their tactics and methods recently exposed. They can't expect to be welcomed anywhere, given the obvious abuses that are happening against U.S. Citizens (and everyone else, for the matter), under the excuse of "war on terrorism".

587 points by rosser 13y ago

I don't think this is about "taking a stand." As has been pointed out, Dark Tangent is himself working for the Feds. > recent revelations have made many in the community uncomfortable about this relationship. They just don't want to deal with fed vs. non-fed tensions at the con. Maybe they're afraid fights would break out.

Selfcommit 13y ago

HN effect on the site?

dominicgs 13y ago
There were issues yesterday too: https://twitter.com/_defcon_/status/354873376675868674 https://twitter.com/_defcon_/status/354873376675868674

ianhawes 13y ago

My understanding is that the overwhelming majority of Federal employees on official duty from FBI, DHS, DOD, NSA, etc.. that attend DEFCON (and related conferences) are actually not agents at all, but rather low ranking analysts whose job at the conferences are to assess the material presented and report back. This is opposed to, say, recruiting CIs or surveilling targets. Source: I asked a Fed.

cheez 13y ago
This is more about making a statement than anything else. Will the information still reach the feds? Sure. But the request is deliberately creating a delineation: the government is no longer for the people or part of the people, it exists for it's own sake. Will the government understand and ramp itself down? Whatever you thought about Ron Paul, his politics would have prevented all of this. All of the wars. All the foreign aid. And we would live in paradise ;)
- bittired 13y ago
  > Whatever you thought about Ron Paul, his politics would have prevented all of this. All of the wars. All the foreign aid. And we would live in paradise ;) This made me laugh. Considering how much Republicans and Tea Partiers are ostracized for making cuts, just imagine how much people would come down on a fiscally conservative basically Libertarian candidate in 2016 (even if he runs as a Republican).
  - msandford 13y ago
    Ostracized by who? People in the media or regular working class folk who pay plenty but get little? My parents both work and make money and the only real benefits that they have gotten as a result of trillions spent on war is that they'll continue to pay taxes for the rehabilitation of the soldiers whose bodies and lives have been destroyed. They MIGHT collect on social security, etc but given that they're still at least 10 years from retirement, it's certainly nothing they can count on.
    - wavefunction 13y ago
      And given that there's been talk about raising the general Soc Sec boundary from 65 to 70, it's even more of a question if they will benefit... Both my parents have "retired" in the past year though they continue to work for money, and they were both a little bitter about how low the benefits are. I had to point out that at least they will probably get what they get. For those of us younger?
    - grogenaut 13y ago
      They get sub $5 gas. That's what the money is being spent on.
      - msandford 13y ago
        The average car is driven say 10k miles per year. At 20mpg that's 500 gallons of gas. At $4 per gallon, it's $2k. At $8 per gallon, that's $4k. A difference of only $2k. I'm not sure that the money on wars is well spent (even in a callous, dollars only sense) if it's saving the average household $4k a year in gas money (two cars).
sbierwagen 13y ago
So what? They still work for law enforcement.
a3n 13y ago
"low ranking analysts whose job at the conferences are to assess the material presented and report back." And maybe those people should go home and rethink their lives.
- mpyne 13y ago
  "Man, I really shouldn't have designed that RFID toolbooth so oppressively.... I'll have to do better than that in the future. :("
  - a3n 13y ago
    Your point is taken, not all security work is oppressive. And my comment was calculated to be over the top. The narrower point being, of course, if you're involved in work that supports Constitutional violations, you should think about what you're doing. Hard. Because if your work supports these things, then you're destroying what you probably signed up to protect. Probably not your fault, the mission was hijacked. But now there's no way to pretend. So think about it, and ideally, act. And if you're just designing tollbooth security, then thanks for your service. :)
    - mpyne 13y ago
      > The narrower point being, of course, if you're involved in work that supports Constitutional violations, you should think about what you're doing. Hard. Well, even things like PRISM have valid Constitutional and national security usages. Things like metadata collection have been allowed for decades as well, under the auspices of valid law enforcement investigations. Holding all Internet traffic in a buffer for 5 years? Collecting all email metadata that passes by? Now that's getting risky, but how many people do you think are actually involved in that? And why is that less dangerous than CALEA (something which DEFCON didn't kick out the Feds for...)? If you flip the concept to instead be "could what I'm working on possibly be used for oppression" then there are a lot more government workers than you might think that would have to be introspective. It has the worse effect of muddying lines of responsibility ("I couldn't have done this bad thing if $FOO hadn't build it!"), which is another path we don't want to go down... the same logic that blames the analyst for creating a process with valid purpose and bad effect could be used to blame the HR rep for hiring the analyst, or the janitor for keeping his workspace clean. And all the while we should be pointing our fingers at the person who actually did something wrong!
BoyWizard 13y ago
>but rather low ranking analysts whose job at the conferences are to assess the material presented and report back So? I work for a private company. I 'report back' on the cool shit I saw, let people know what was around, what was popular, etc. It's a learning experience. Saying they 'report back' is useless. If you go to a con and don't talk with other people about the stuff you saw there it's almost wasteful. I think I know what you meant though - they go and see what all the 'underground hackers' are up to.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

codezero 13y ago
It's not just you.

femto 13y ago

Did anyone else look at the defcon21 logo and see a hand giving "the finger"? ("def" are the fingers, 21 is the palm, the top of the d is an extended finger)

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

jonathanwallace 13y ago

Try the non-SSL version if you're having trouble accessing the site. http://www.defcon.org/#dc21fedbreak http://www.defcon.org/#dc21fedbreak

danielsiders 13y ago

Entry (since the site is down): "Feds, we need some time apart. Posted 7.10.13 For over two decades DEF CON has been an open nexus of hacker culture, a place where seasoned pros, hackers, academics, and feds can meet, share ideas and party on neutral territory. Our community operates in the spirit of openness, verified trust, and mutual respect. When it comes to sharing and socializing with feds, recent revelations have made many in the community uncomfortable about this relationship. Therefore, I think it would be best for everyone involved if the feds call a "time-out" and not attend DEF CON this year. This will give everybody time to think about how we got here, and what comes next. The Dark Tangent"

codyb 13y ago
Will this actually affect the feds ability to attend or will they just attend in plain clothes? Or will they be able to attend as feds and just be looked down upon?
- welder 13y ago
  Feds always attend in plain clothes so this effectively does nothing. I also wonder if a Fed only means investigative or law enforcement type Feds or also includes federally employed IT peoples.
  - iamtherockstar 13y ago
    Last year they had Gen. Keith Alexander, NSA chief. There are usually a handful of talks by "feds". I wonder if their talk schedule has gotten messed up because of this.
  - tippytop 13y ago
    I don't think the intention is to create a moat around the conference. Things have been getting quite cozy between these two [1]; I'm sure recent revelations don't play well with this conference's attendee base. [1] https://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9229756/NSA_chief_asks_hackers_at_Defcon_for_help_securing_cyberspace https://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9229756/NSA_chief_as...

typicalrunt 13y ago

I applaud Jeff's (DarkTangent) stance on this. I've been to 7 Defcons now and the Feds have always been treated fairly. Even the media has been treated with respect, so long as they are transparent and honest about being media [1]. Honesty and openness have been betrayed this year with the Snowden leaks, and I'm glad people are finally taking a stand. I'm curious other security conventions will take the same stance. [1] One year a reporter disguised herself as an attendee instead of admitting she was a reporter, and was attempting to get hackers on record saying that they've hacked into <this> and <that> important system. She was found out and summarily chased (literally) out the convention.

EthanHeilman 13y ago
I'm extremely impressed with DarkTangent, this must have been a difficult move for him to make, especially given that the NSA Director(DernZa) was the keynote speaker at the last defcon. He is probably getting a mountain range of shit right now from the feds. " Over the past two decades, hackers at Defcon and the feds have been circling each other suspiciously. The nation's top "spook" -- National Security Agency Director Gen. Keith Alexander -- giving a keynote at the hacker confab, shows just how much tensions have mellowed." http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57481689-83/nsa-director-finally-greets-defcon-hackers/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57481689-83/nsa-director-fi... Things don't look so mellow anymore.
- mcantelon 13y ago
  >He is probably getting a mountain range of shit right now from the feds. I doubt it. It's just PR. Defcon will invite the feds back once everything blows over, PRISM or not.
  - marshray 13y ago
    DT is famous for cultivating controversy for PR. AIUI, in the past Defcon has orchestrate [big company's] lawyers literally walking on stage to shut down a vulnerability disclosure talk.

smokeyj 13y ago

As hackers we have an ethical obligation to refuse service to tyrants and dictators. Like mercenaries who profiteer off war, we should ostracize those who act against humanity.

kpommerenke 13y ago
Exactly: Stay away from North Korea
mpyne 13y ago
We also have an ethical obligation not to abuse the computer systems of those less skilled than us, but that obligation has hardly stopped that kind of stuff.

iamtherockstar 13y ago

"Begun, the 0wn wars have."

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

maqr 13y ago

Does a "time-out" mean that they're discouraged from attending or that they won't be issued badges?

britta 13y ago
They are politely discouraged from attending. I imagine that a person who says "I'm a fed" while buying a badge would not be issued one, but Defcon has no way to avoid issuing badges to feds who don't disclose their status.
- fixxer 13y ago
  Hmm... forgive my ignorance, but do they have the right to not issue a badge to anyone based on occupation? Sounds like discrimination. Hope they don't sue. ;)
  - nknighthb 13y ago
    Defcon is not a government entity, it has freedom of association rights, and law enforcement officers are not a suspect classification.
    - sigzero 13y ago
      It could probably be considered public though and therefore freedom of association wouldn't apply.
      - nknighthb 13y ago
        Freedom of association always applies, the only question is whether government can and has overridden it. For "has", neither Congress nor Nevada has attempted to make discrimination based on employer illegal, in a place of public accommodation or otherwise. There can be no illegal discrimination when there is no relevant law, making the case moot from its inception. And even if they had attempted such (that is, we move to the "can" analysis), we know from the Supreme Court's unanimous decision in Hurley that it's difficult to do even where there is an entanglement of public and private interests, the harm to the private interests is extremely attenuated, and the excluded group is arguably quasi-suspect.

ENOTTY 13y ago

So I assume Dark Tangent won't attend his own con? Jeff Moss sits on the Homeland Security Advisory Board and is the CSO of ICANN.[1] If that's not "the man", I don't know what is. [1] http://www.dhs.gov/homeland-security-advisory-council-members http://www.dhs.gov/homeland-security-advisory-council-member...

dfc 13y ago
I can understand your position with DHS. But CANN is hardly the man. Would you prefer a world where ICANN is unable to find competent security people because working for ICANN is some how associated with evil?
- anonymous 13y ago
  Supporting ICANN is hardly working in the name of "good". Sure, working with ICANN may not be associated with "evil". However to those in the know, it is associated with greed under the guise of "service to the public". Personally, I'd prefer a world where ICANN, namely the centralization and commercialization of domain names to benefit a select few insiders and an array of parasitic sleazebags, gave way to a non-antagonistic naming system harmonized with trademark law and actually run transparently as a public service, for the public benefit.
  - contingencies 13y ago
    However to those in the know, it is associated with greed under the guise of "service to the public". Don't forget a US-centric internet, far more readily controlled and manipulated by that state than any other.
    - snowwrestler 13y ago
      I have heard exactly zero accusations that ICANN is doing anything to control or manipulate the Internet for the good of the U.S. None of the recent revelations about Prism, tapping cables, etc. have anything to do with ICANN.

Canada 13y ago

The feds have all the 0 day and privileged access now. What do they need Def Con for anyway? Well, I guess they'll miss out on getting drunk.

dmoy 13y ago
Recruiting?
- fixxer 13y ago
  God help the poor schmucks left to run that booth this year. (I've never been; I presume it is like most other conferences and you've got a slough of bored recruiters staffing info booths?)
  - merlincorey 13y ago
    They don't get a booth.
  - X-Istence 13y ago
    No info booths, they are lucky if they get a table, but even then outright using it for recruiting is not allowed. Last year they had an Enigma machine on display.
- readme 13y ago
  Recruiting for IT jobs at alphabet agencies.
a3n 13y ago
It's probably a worthwhile recruiting venue, even if they just get one every year or two.

_delirium 13y ago

A curious aspect is that the person who wrote this message (Jeff Moss) is actually a fed himself. Does he plan to exclude himself from the conference?

mirkules 13y ago

I'm skeptical. For the past few years that I've been attending, defcon felt at some times like an instrument for fed recruiting while paying lip service to its original "underground" feel. DT's message almost felt like posturing to underline the latter rather than a sincere statement to curtail the former. I won't pretend that I'm a long time attendee (my first was DC16), so I would love to hear from some more seasoned attendees if my impression is correct. Edit: the reason for that impression is that there is no declaration of a policy in his message (e.g. "feds are prohibited from soliciting employees at DC21"), rather a soft "time-out". With all due respect to DT, neither we nor the feds are in the third grade. Contrast this with their strict journalist policy and recall how that undercover reporter was outed and kicked out/chased away a few years ago.

_delirium 13y ago
You might have felt like that because the original organizer, "Dark Tangent" aka Jeff Moss, turned state's evidence in 2009. He's been on the federal payroll ever since. Here, he's trying to pose as an anti-fed activist while simultaneously drawing a Department of Homeland Security paycheck.
dobbsbob 13y ago
I went to DC in the 90s and almost everybody you ran into was doing something illegal, like the Shadowcrew guys and a team of motorola hackers I mainly hung out with. Almost every talk gave hommage to whatever current hacker was in prison or on the run, and typically was anti fed, anti surviellance and anti copyright. Totally different now because at the time felt like the whole culture was under seige by overzealous feds and there was constant rumours of feds watching the exits with surveillance like we were the mafia or something
forgottenpass 13y ago
I had written more here, but even after cutting down this post is still to long. Basically the evolution of DC is in large part a response to its own success. 13k attendees (IIRC) is going to change things, and any difference makes it easy to get disenchanted and/or nay-say. I don't think the attitude and execution have gotten worse overall, just different. the reason for that impression is that there is no declaration of a policy in his message Defcon knows they can't dictate everything that happens, only influence it. Feds are going to be there one way or another, thats why DT had an "invite the feds" attitude from the beginning. To hear some goons tell it, the "spot the fed" game was created as a social device to reduce animosity between attendees and law enforcement while also reminding everyone that strangers at the convention aren't your friends. Even with enforcing hard and fast ideas (like the journalism boundary) they start off with a light touch. They gave the reporter many chances to stop snooping about and get a press badge. Before letting us into the convention center on day one red shirts were giving out warnings. That was days before she was publicly called out in one of the panels and marched out of the Riv. As you say, we're not in third grade. But defcon does know it, and understand they can't keep people out a no-names cash-transaction event based on attendee employer. The most they can hope to do is say "Hey, maybe not so much this year?" Time will tell how it plays out, but the last thing I would call it is an attempt to save face or change the image of the event. I thought it was 100% DT playing a joke at first, and I still think its a joke now, just one with a message.

microb 13y ago

Keith Alexander, Director of the NSA spoke at DEFCON last year to a standing-room-only audience. Every year "the feds" have a presence at DEFCON.

iuguy 13y ago
And he's the Keynote speaker at Blackhat the week before.

david_shaw 13y ago

This is going to be my tenth (?!) year at DEF CON. The culture of DEF CON, and especially its evolution, is a very interesting one. When I first attended DEF CON, it was a bunch of seemingly scary hackers. Fortunately, it turns out most of them were amazing people. As the conference grew (and changed venues several times), the culture began to evolve. The barrier to entry--in terms of being "accepted" into the subculture--lowered significantly. DEF CON stopped being a scary place, with goons that would "de-tech" you and throw you in the pool, and more of a mainstream event. For the most part, I'm completely supportive of where DEF CON's going. I'm definitely supportive of air conditioning in the venue, instead of standing outside in the sweltering Las Vegas summertime heat. That said, though, it's not really a "hacker conference" anymore. Not more than its sister conference, Black Hat, or something like RSA, anyway. DEF CON used to be about hacking. Not in the HN sense, but in the "illegal entry into networks" definition. Now, it's less about hacking and more about the actual information security industry; this is probably related to the fact that everyone I knew at the first DEF CON I attended (myself included) currently works in the infosec industry. With growth, exposure, and the inclusion of white hats, DEF CON naturally became a recruiting ground for federal agencies, including law enforcement, the military, intelligence, etc. The 'spot the fed' game that began as a joke (with prizes!) soon seemed silly, since there were so many federal employees/recruiters/agents. I'm all for DEF CON entering the mainstream. It's a conference and community that I've grown to love, and the lessons I've learned there (not to mention the friends I've made) have helped me immensely--both personally and professionally. That said, though, there's pretty much zero chance that this announcement DT made will have any effect whatsoever on federal agents, recruiters or representatives attending the con. More than anything, it's a huge publicity stunt. After all, most of the staff and "old school" attendees work for "the man" now. For some, like me, it's just hacking for money; many, though, actually do work for defense and intelligence contractors. Should they be banned because of their affiliation? Personally, I don't think so. PS: If you're considering going to DEF CON and you've never been, you should! It's a booze-fueled learning, partying and networking event unlike any other. Plus, you get to hang out in Vegas for a weekend!

merlincorey 13y ago
I'm pretty sure this is a joke since DT himself can be considered a fed, and there are lots of Defcon leadership that work with/for the feds as well.

exgeocitiesuser 13y ago

interseting times we live in

rawrly 13y ago

Defcon is cancelled.

merlincorey 13y ago
Just confirmed on IRC, Defcon is cancelled.
- X-Istence 13y ago
  Just got this confirmed through an anonymous source at DEF CON, it has indeed been canceled. With feds no longer being welcome there simply would not be enough money made from ticket sales to pay the costs for the venue.
  - throwawayDC21 13y ago
    Come on guys, you know we don't cancel DEF CON until the badge line reaches 200 people.
67726e 13y ago
Could you post a link or a screenshot to verify your claim?
TallGuyShort 13y ago
Is it an inside joke to always say defcon is cancelled? (Not that you'd tell me if it was...) "Is Defcon cancelled" is in the FAQ: https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-14/dc-14-faq.html#Is%20DEF%C2%A0CON%C2%A0Cancelled https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-14/dc-14-faq.html#Is%20DE...
himayal4r 13y ago
i can confirm this.

anonymous 13y ago

http://news.cnet.com/8301-27080_3-20095649-245/when-hackers-become-the-man/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-27080_3-20095649-245/when-hackers-... In the early years, DefCon founder Jeff Moss used to say "if you're 20 and you're working for The Man, you're a loser,"... "Ten years ago, Moss said 'if you're 30 and you're not working for The Man, you're a loser.' And now he agreed that at 40 he is The Man.'"

anonymous 13y ago

I will attempt to translate Jeff's short message: In light of recent events, this is not an opportune time for recruiting and so the feds will not be attending the conference in their usual numbers. However, they will of course still be monitoring all communcations at the event, so they will be there in spirit.

rdl 13y ago

I was assuming Defcon 21 would be down on fed count this year due to 1) the sequester hurting travel budgets and 2) recent (well, in the past year) high profile wasting of money in Las Vegas by the GSA. There's also OHM running in parallel, which will draw off some of the European attendees (probably not law enforcement/intel, though). If I got to pick between OHM and PW/BS/BH/DC (all 4 running in Las Vegas that week), I'd probably pick Ohm.

ferdo 13y ago

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair

mcantelon 13y ago

Note the "this year". Defcon is just looking after their branding. If they had concern for privacy they wouldn't have had the NSA directory keynote last year and let him lie to their audience.

adaml_623 13y ago

Is it possible that this post is a message to many who work for the government to evaluate what they are doing and decide whether they are comfortable with what their job involves. After all there's a huge spectrum of possible actions between whistle-blowing and unthinkingly following procedures. And you can work for change from within... perhaps.

tomgirl1 13y ago

The "feds" in cooperation with silicon valley invented the Internet going back to the late 60's, so it should be no surprise that every technology from the bottom of the stack to the top is completely insecure. Although the exploitation of it on a mass scale as we are seeing is a scurrilous, scandalous practice, we as folks who pretend to know what we are talking about, need to realize that. If we are committed to righting the ship many things have to go out of the window. TCP/IP, DNS, proxies forward or reverse, CA Certificate authorities, MAC addresses, software based kernel extensions. Feeling up to it?

mcot2 13y ago

DefCon is a joke. Nobody with any skill takes that conference seriously. This is a complete farce as one of the key speakers last year was Gen Keith Alexander. NSA was fairly open about recruiting directly from DefCon and DefCon leadership had no problem with it. Anyone with even a slight security background could have predicted Prism and other programs just by the AT&T whistleblower from the mid 2000's. DefCon is just too big, too mainstream for any real technical value. I don't need to fly to Vegas to watch umpteen panel discussions with crazy EFF people.

certific 13y ago
Which conferences do you consider decent for someone with skills?
- mcot2 13y ago
  There are a lot of smaller technical trainings and conferences once you get to a certain level. I like to rate conferences by the technical quality of what is being presented. Am I constantly being blown away by new ideas? What can I use in my own projects to make them better? At too many defcons I have seen nonsense panel discussions and presentations by people with little qualifications. Some presentations I have seen have obviously been created one or two nights beforehand. I've even seen a troll presentation where slides with walls of text were read word for word in a monotone voice. I have no idea who this person is or how old this list is and I have not attended every one of these conferences but you might take a look at this: http://faculty.cs.tamu.edu/guofei/sec_conf_stat.htm http://faculty.cs.tamu.edu/guofei/sec_conf_stat.htm

GoldfishCRM 13y ago

Smart move. Then people not feds has to come in order to prove they are not feds.

Shank 13y ago

It seems quite clear to me that Dark Tangent is attempting to stop something bad from happening at DEF CON. He doesn't want a fight or a brawl breaking out, or implied threats or negative community interaction. His advice isn't so much a 'no feds allowed' sign, but more of an open warning that coming as a Fed might cause undesired tension and circumstances that weren't previously present in such high volumes. Calling the situation ironic because DT is a fed is unrelated - he may work for the government, but he isn't in a position that has a conflict of interest with a hacker conference (read: he doesn't work for the NSA). If you say "Dark Tangent" to a person in the security community, people recognize him as the creator of a hacker conference; not a government employee.

gavinlynch 13y ago

Is half the Security industry just attending conferences? Seriously.

GigabyteCoin 13y ago

If the feds can get air traffic controllers in other countries around the world to down the Bolivian President's jet... I don't think they'd have any trouble getting into DefCon if they really wanted to.

guiambros 13y ago

It's important to remember that DEF CON is not banning the feds, but instead asking them to not participate this year. There's a big difference here. The former is mandatory, unilateral; the other is an invite to pause and reconsider the relationship. Now I'm curious on how government agencies will respond. They may go anyway -- and have to deal with a very unwelcoming mood, or respect the request and give some space for the sec community to discuss the case more openly. I, for one, fully support DT's request, and really hope the feds understand that the problem is not who they are or what they represent, but their tactics and methods recently exposed. They can't expect to be welcomed anywhere, given the obvious abuses that are happening against U.S. Citizens (and everyone else, for the matter), under the excuse of "war on terrorism".