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I'll say it again, because I was immediately downvoted into invisibility: You CAN NOT continue to use products and services by NSA companies like Microsoft - Y

I'll say it again, because I was immediately downvoted into invisibility: You CAN NOT continue to use products and services by NSA companies like Microsoft - Yahoo - Google - Facebook - PalTalk - AOL - Skype - YouTube - or Apple and THEN turn around and BITCH AND CRY ABOUT LOSING YOUR RIGHTS AND PRIVACY. This is completely INSANE, you NEED TO WAKE UP! EDIT: Yeah, let the censuring begin again. You know what? When I look at the people here on HackerNews, I'm beginning to see a SOCIETY THAT ACTUALLY WANTS TO BE FUCKED - DEEPLY EVEN.

hayksaakian 13y ago
There is a difference between opting out of privacy (eg Facebook) and being guaranteed privacy -- which is unknowingly violated (NSA)
brandonbloom 13y ago
You're being down voted because your comment is entirely non-constructive. 1) Calling people insane won't win you any favors. 2) "WAKE UP" is an entirely useless platitude. 3) Simply not using "NSA companies" is completely impractical. Not everyone can afford to be a recluse eccentric by ignoring the largest software providers on the planet. Never mind the fact that switching to an alternative in mass would simply produce a new "NSA company". These companies aren't at fault, our government is. Do you have any concrete proposals? Do you have anything new to share? It doesn't seem that you do.
- kimlelly 13y ago
  > Calling people insane won't win you any favors. I say exactly what it IS. It IS INSANE. I do NOT give a fuck about any favors. I don't care about any fucking karma points - we're turning into a turn-key totalitarian system, and people act like nothing has changed. You got https://prism-break.org/ https://prism-break.org/ Now go and do your homework, I'm not your dad.
  - knowaveragejoe 13y ago
    You must be new to HN. Reddit is probably better suited for you.
- cinquemb 13y ago
  Not to mention they're completely tapping the cables too… Guess it's time to find the resources to buy thousands of miles of fiber optics and hope the NSA, GCHQ, and the rest of the global surveillance state doesn't tap those! :D
- laxatives 13y ago
  Avoiding Microsoft, Google, and Apple doesn't leave many smart phone options either.
  - jeltz 13y ago
    There is always the Blackberry.
    - winthrowe 13y ago
      If they've publicly provided similar capabilities to the Indian government, it seems naive to think that list isn't longer. http://gadgets.ndtv.com/telecom/news/government-to-take-over-possession-of-blackberry-interception-infrastructure-338040 http://gadgets.ndtv.com/telecom/news/government-to-take-over...
      - jeltz 13y ago
        Yeah, they might join PRISM any day.
        Apocryphon 13y ago
        I was going to ask if the Canadian government could do anything about that, but then disillusionment set in.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
- grandalf 13y ago
  These companies aren't at fault, our government is I think the companies are also at fault. If instead of illegal surveillance the companies were being asked to illicitly expose employees to potentially harmful radiation, the moral culpability would be more obvious, regardless of the letter of the FISC laws their corporate counsel was shown. There was clearly a decision on the part of the employees of the companies involved not to risk their own livelihoods by simply going along with what the government wanted. I'd argue that major atrocities are possible via the combined impact of institutionally diffused acts of moral depravity such as those committed by our beloved tech companies.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
brown9-2 13y ago
I don't think this has much to do with the products you use, but rather the jurisdictions you reside in and the laws passed there. No one should "bitch and cry about losing your rights and privacy" - they should be lobbying their representatives to change laws.
lambda 13y ago
You were downvoted into invisibility because this type of discourse is not appropriate for Hacker News. Please, no shouting. No vague pronouncements to "wake up". We try to have a reasoned, intelligent discourse here. There are many services provided by companies which may collaborate with the NSA or law enforcement which are pretty much unavoidable in modern society; the telephone network, the internet, and so on. Telling people that they need to completely disconnect from modern society or they shouldn't complain is unproductive. Rather, we should be discussing realistic solutions. Pervasive end-to-end cryptography for everyday tasks would help. Better laws and legal oversight of both the government and of corporations would help. Protocols that encourage federated or decentralized use, rather than central storage that everything passes through unencrypted would help.
- kimlelly 13y ago
  > Rather, we should be discussing realistic solutions. Everything has already been discussed. Multiple times over. And when you repeat yourself, you get downvoted.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - threeseed 13y ago
    You're not getting it. It's not what you say (which frankly everyone here seems to agree with). It's how you say it.
    - PavlovsCat 13y ago
      Yes. I agree with the outrage, but exactly because of that, please, take my parent comment to heart.
valisystem 13y ago
Please stop. This adds nothing to the conversation. Don't worry, it's not your personal mission from saving the world from NSA spying, and if you want to do something relevant, talk to people individually in a open minded conversation, where you'll be able to calmly expose your facts.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
eddieroger 13y ago
So instead of repeating what was made invisible, make it a constructive comment. Instead of carrying a Windows Phone, Android or iPhone, which smartphone should I carry? How can I start getting my friends off Facebook so I can close my account without losing those connections? I'm not trying to make the argument to stay, but without viable alternatives, people won't leave.
- jrn 13y ago
  blackberry for phones, not sure about facebook alternatives. edit: also bbm is going cross platform soon, so that may give an encrypted social network alternative, haven't used it though. also I think they gave india/dubai a backdoor a couple years ago? so who's to say, whether they would be compelled to cough up to the nsa as well.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - winthrowe 13y ago
    They did give India a backdoor, and it seems naive to think that no one else has it.
    - jrn 13y ago
      Just an update, on India's lawful access. Apparently BES customers; read corporations, will not have their email communications intercepted. http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-07-10/news/40492683_1_blackberry-services-blackberry-messenger-interception-solution http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-07-10/news...
tommis 13y ago
With "Upstream" mentioned in the slide, it doesn't matter what company you use. As long as your data goes trough a cable that's monitored, everything is owned.
hedonist 13y ago
Can you USE MORE CAPITAL LETTERS, please? That would MAKE YOUR POINT MUCH MORE CREDIBLE, you know.
- lurkinggrue 13y ago
  WHAT?!
csomar 13y ago
You CAN NOT continue to use products and services by NSA companies like Microsoft - Yahoo - Google - Facebook - PalTalk - AOL - Skype - YouTube - or Apple and THEN turn around and BITCH AND CRY ABOUT LOSING YOUR RIGHTS AND PRIVACY. So is it by coincidence the products that have the most users are the ones watched by the NSA? Any product/service that will reach such a huge audience will be a target. Not using the product is not a solution. Getting the NSA to respect the law is what we need.

hayksaakian 13y ago

There is a difference between opting out of privacy (eg Facebook) and being guaranteed privacy -- which is unknowingly violated (NSA)

brandonbloom 13y ago

You're being down voted because your comment is entirely non-constructive. 1) Calling people insane won't win you any favors. 2) "WAKE UP" is an entirely useless platitude. 3) Simply not using "NSA companies" is completely impractical. Not everyone can afford to be a recluse eccentric by ignoring the largest software providers on the planet. Never mind the fact that switching to an alternative in mass would simply produce a new "NSA company". These companies aren't at fault, our government is. Do you have any concrete proposals? Do you have anything new to share? It doesn't seem that you do.

kimlelly 13y ago
> Calling people insane won't win you any favors. I say exactly what it IS. It IS INSANE. I do NOT give a fuck about any favors. I don't care about any fucking karma points - we're turning into a turn-key totalitarian system, and people act like nothing has changed. You got https://prism-break.org/ https://prism-break.org/ Now go and do your homework, I'm not your dad.
- knowaveragejoe 13y ago
  You must be new to HN. Reddit is probably better suited for you.
cinquemb 13y ago
Not to mention they're completely tapping the cables too… Guess it's time to find the resources to buy thousands of miles of fiber optics and hope the NSA, GCHQ, and the rest of the global surveillance state doesn't tap those! :D
laxatives 13y ago
Avoiding Microsoft, Google, and Apple doesn't leave many smart phone options either.
- jeltz 13y ago
  There is always the Blackberry.
  - winthrowe 13y ago
    If they've publicly provided similar capabilities to the Indian government, it seems naive to think that list isn't longer. http://gadgets.ndtv.com/telecom/news/government-to-take-over-possession-of-blackberry-interception-infrastructure-338040 http://gadgets.ndtv.com/telecom/news/government-to-take-over...
    - jeltz 13y ago
      Yeah, they might join PRISM any day.
      - Apocryphon 13y ago
        I was going to ask if the Canadian government could do anything about that, but then disillusionment set in.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
grandalf 13y ago
These companies aren't at fault, our government is I think the companies are also at fault. If instead of illegal surveillance the companies were being asked to illicitly expose employees to potentially harmful radiation, the moral culpability would be more obvious, regardless of the letter of the FISC laws their corporate counsel was shown. There was clearly a decision on the part of the employees of the companies involved not to risk their own livelihoods by simply going along with what the government wanted. I'd argue that major atrocities are possible via the combined impact of institutionally diffused acts of moral depravity such as those committed by our beloved tech companies.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

brown9-2 13y ago

I don't think this has much to do with the products you use, but rather the jurisdictions you reside in and the laws passed there. No one should "bitch and cry about losing your rights and privacy" - they should be lobbying their representatives to change laws.

lambda 13y ago

You were downvoted into invisibility because this type of discourse is not appropriate for Hacker News. Please, no shouting. No vague pronouncements to "wake up". We try to have a reasoned, intelligent discourse here. There are many services provided by companies which may collaborate with the NSA or law enforcement which are pretty much unavoidable in modern society; the telephone network, the internet, and so on. Telling people that they need to completely disconnect from modern society or they shouldn't complain is unproductive. Rather, we should be discussing realistic solutions. Pervasive end-to-end cryptography for everyday tasks would help. Better laws and legal oversight of both the government and of corporations would help. Protocols that encourage federated or decentralized use, rather than central storage that everything passes through unencrypted would help.

kimlelly 13y ago
> Rather, we should be discussing realistic solutions. Everything has already been discussed. Multiple times over. And when you repeat yourself, you get downvoted.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- threeseed 13y ago
  You're not getting it. It's not what you say (which frankly everyone here seems to agree with). It's how you say it.
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    Yes. I agree with the outrage, but exactly because of that, please, take my parent comment to heart.

valisystem 13y ago

Please stop. This adds nothing to the conversation. Don't worry, it's not your personal mission from saving the world from NSA spying, and if you want to do something relevant, talk to people individually in a open minded conversation, where you'll be able to calmly expose your facts.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

eddieroger 13y ago

So instead of repeating what was made invisible, make it a constructive comment. Instead of carrying a Windows Phone, Android or iPhone, which smartphone should I carry? How can I start getting my friends off Facebook so I can close my account without losing those connections? I'm not trying to make the argument to stay, but without viable alternatives, people won't leave.

jrn 13y ago
blackberry for phones, not sure about facebook alternatives. edit: also bbm is going cross platform soon, so that may give an encrypted social network alternative, haven't used it though. also I think they gave india/dubai a backdoor a couple years ago? so who's to say, whether they would be compelled to cough up to the nsa as well.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- winthrowe 13y ago
  They did give India a backdoor, and it seems naive to think that no one else has it.
  - jrn 13y ago
    Just an update, on India's lawful access. Apparently BES customers; read corporations, will not have their email communications intercepted. http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-07-10/news/40492683_1_blackberry-services-blackberry-messenger-interception-solution http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-07-10/news...

tommis 13y ago

With "Upstream" mentioned in the slide, it doesn't matter what company you use. As long as your data goes trough a cable that's monitored, everything is owned.

hedonist 13y ago

Can you USE MORE CAPITAL LETTERS, please? That would MAKE YOUR POINT MUCH MORE CREDIBLE, you know.

lurkinggrue 13y ago
WHAT?!

csomar 13y ago

You CAN NOT continue to use products and services by NSA companies like Microsoft - Yahoo - Google - Facebook - PalTalk - AOL - Skype - YouTube - or Apple and THEN turn around and BITCH AND CRY ABOUT LOSING YOUR RIGHTS AND PRIVACY. So is it by coincidence the products that have the most users are the ones watched by the NSA? Any product/service that will reach such a huge audience will be a target. Not using the product is not a solution. Getting the NSA to respect the law is what we need.