6 ms·

I wonder if the people signing this would also boycott anything run or owned by Middle Eastern royalty where laws that Card promotes both exist and are enforced

by steve19 13y ago

I wonder if the people signing this would also boycott anything run or owned by Middle Eastern royalty where laws that Card promotes both exist and are enforced.

iuguy 13y ago
Of course not, it's much easier to feel self-righteous boycotting one of the greatest living science fiction authors than boycotting the oil that funds this sort of thing. Gay marriage is legal in the US, and rightly so. Neither Orson Scott Card nor middle-eastern oil will change that.
- srl 13y ago
  While I agree with the sentiment, gay marriage is not legal in most of the US.
- anu_gupta 13y ago
  > one of the greatest living science fiction authors Oh please. Ender's Game is a classic. The rest of his work is worse, and the recent Shadow stuff is execrable.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    Having produced one classic work is easily enough to lift one to the level of "one of the greatest living science fiction authors" - remember Sturgeon's Law.
  - scotty79 13y ago
    His work is surely uneven but he wrote some awesome things and that makes him great for me. I don't expect people I admire to consistently produce masterpieces. I'm greatful even if they managed to produced only one. I also liked his A Planet Called Treason
  - iuguy 13y ago
    Rather than argue about whether or not he's one of (not the top one) the best living sci-fi authors, how about you post some sci-fi authors that are better than or as good as him? The only criteria is: They must be primarily known for sci-fi They must be alive today That way everyone on HN can benefit. I'll start with: * William Gibson * Ursula K. LeGuin * Charlie Stross * Margaret Atwood Anyone else care to add to the list?
    - ajdecon 13y ago
      * Lois Bujold * Connie Willis * Vernor Vinge * Kim Stanley Robinson * Neal Stephenson * Larry Niven * Hell, even John Scalzi If it weren't for the "alive" requirement, I'd include Iain M. Banks. :-( Regardless, I highly recommend anything Banks has written over anything of Card's. If we're willing to include fantasy... * Brandon Sanderson * Patrick Rothfuss * George R. R. Martin * Terry Pratchett * Mira Grant * Jim Butcher This just from a brief glance over my most-recent on Goodreads. There is lots and lots of good Sci-Fi and Fantasy out there, and I'd be willing to argue any of these authors over Card in terms of quality. (Though -- to be fair -- I was monumentally unimpressed with Card even before I knew his politics.) A few of the authors on my list have politics I disagree with as well, but they at least are much less obnoxious and hateful about it.
      - e12e 13y ago
        * Samuel R. Delany * Bruce Sterling
    - alinajaf 13y ago
      I envy you because you've yet to discover Greg Egan. You'll want Axiomatic, Permutation City and Diaspora, in that order.
theorique 13y ago
You can't self-righteously BitTorrent oil, so I would say probably not. (On the other hand, American natural gas and Canadian tar sands may break us free from dependence on the Saudis and their deplorable political and social system.)
- arethuza 13y ago
  I just finished a rather excellent (if slightly depressing) book on the links between the US government and Saudi Arabia that suggests those links are rather deeper than you might suspect: http://www.amazon.com/Sleeping-Devil-Washington-Saudi-Crude/dp/1400052688 http://www.amazon.com/Sleeping-Devil-Washington-Saudi-Crude/... [NB: From what I can tell the author, Bob Baer, is fairly credible - he is a former CIA field officer with a lot of experience in the Middle East.]
  - e12e 13y ago
    He's autobiography on his time in the CIA, "See No Evil" is also interesting (and depressing). edit: While we're on the subject of sci-fi and capitalism; I highly recommend Bruce Sterling's latest book, the Zenith Angle: http://www.amazon.com/The-Zenith-Angle-Bruce-Sterling/dp/0345468651/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373477221&sr=8-1&keywords=zenith+angle http://www.amazon.com/The-Zenith-Angle-Bruce-Sterling/dp/034...
  - theorique 13y ago
    Thanks, I will check it out!
smoyer 13y ago
Card is a Mormon and I have no problem with his belief that homosexual behaviors are wrong. Tolerance is different from belief though and if he doesn't practice tolerance, why should he expect people to tolerate his religion-based beliefs? One problem I see is that so many times, beliefs are also linked to hatred. There's really no place for hatred when two parties are trying to practice tolerance.
- Symmetry 13y ago
  There's a big difference between saying "Gay marriage is bad and people who support it should feel bad" and "A government which allows gay marriage must be overthrown by any means necessary." The former I can ignore, the later not so much.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    I don't think so. Using another picked on minority, I don't consider a "casual" neo-nazi skinhead and a dedicated one to be on particularly different levels. They both disgust me fairly equally (if for no other reason, then because the former incubate and insulate the later.)
ideonexus 13y ago
You've never gotten one of these emails? http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/saudigas.asp http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/saudigas.asp People boycott in America for political reasons all the time. I don't particularly care about this boycott, but I'm not going to ridicule them for exercising their right to free association. If they don't want their money going to a bigot, that's their prerogative. If a person wants to boycott Chick Filet because of their stance on gay marriage, Heinz Ketchup because John Kerry's wife owns it, or any other good or service where someone their money will go to political views they do not support, then that is their Constitutional right. It's also your right to ridicule them, but maybe you should try and come up with some concrete examples instead of just flinging random, unsupported assumptions about moral inconsistencies you think they exhibit.
max_wall_2000 13y ago
Ah, the old "why aren't they doing this instead" argument against activism. There should be an internet law for that one.
erikpukinskis 13y ago
I'm someone who has spent a lot of my life trying, often failing, to "be good". More and more, it seems like an impossible goal: On the one side you can retreat to the woods and live off of roots and berries trying not to do any direct harm. But then, depending on your privilege, you leave on the table so many opportunities to steer the ship of society in a less harmful direction. Or, at the other end of the spectrum you can yield all reaponsibility for your direct actions, instead throwing yourself into the wheeling and dealing of systems of harm, trying to invest what privilege you have to gain leverage so that you can make a bigger difference, focusing only on some theoretical calculus of your global influence, measuring yourself by your imagined net global effect. Or, more likely, you pick something in between. In the end, we all make a personal decision about what we are willing to sacrifice. I often use oil, even though I know it's harmful, because I think my boycott of it would cost the world more than it would gain. I could be wrong, but that's my best guess based on my (flawed) understanding of my self and my world. And I may boycott Ender's Game and I do not think that's hypocritical. It's just an acknowledgement that there are limits to our power and we must choose our battles.
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  'Not seeing a movie' is a pretty small battle. Did you act politically in favor/against the issue? Write a letter to your congressperson? Speak publicly on the subject? We must not imagine for a second that a personal boycott is a significant political/moral act to anyone but ourselves. I agree, you must do what you can, but the movie is a trivial point at best. Your posting on this forum is more significant than, probably, the entire boycott issue.
  - shiven 13y ago
    Voting with your dollars is where it all begins. Don't underestimate the power of a single cent.
    - Joeboy 13y ago
      That's true if you invest your dollars in supporting political action. A personal boycott is going to have no impact on anything.
seivan 13y ago
I do.
jlgreco 13y ago
When I am aware of a connection, you are damn straight I make a point of avoiding giving them my money. There are a number of places that have been stricken from my vacation checklist for this reason.

by steve19 13y ago

I wonder if the people signing this would also boycott anything run or owned by Middle Eastern royalty where laws that Card promotes both exist and are enforced.

iuguy 13y ago

Of course not, it's much easier to feel self-righteous boycotting one of the greatest living science fiction authors than boycotting the oil that funds this sort of thing. Gay marriage is legal in the US, and rightly so. Neither Orson Scott Card nor middle-eastern oil will change that.

srl 13y ago
While I agree with the sentiment, gay marriage is not legal in most of the US.
anu_gupta 13y ago
> one of the greatest living science fiction authors Oh please. Ender's Game is a classic. The rest of his work is worse, and the recent Shadow stuff is execrable.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  Having produced one classic work is easily enough to lift one to the level of "one of the greatest living science fiction authors" - remember Sturgeon's Law.
- scotty79 13y ago
  His work is surely uneven but he wrote some awesome things and that makes him great for me. I don't expect people I admire to consistently produce masterpieces. I'm greatful even if they managed to produced only one. I also liked his A Planet Called Treason
- iuguy 13y ago
  Rather than argue about whether or not he's one of (not the top one) the best living sci-fi authors, how about you post some sci-fi authors that are better than or as good as him? The only criteria is: They must be primarily known for sci-fi They must be alive today That way everyone on HN can benefit. I'll start with: * William Gibson * Ursula K. LeGuin * Charlie Stross * Margaret Atwood Anyone else care to add to the list?
  - ajdecon 13y ago
    * Lois Bujold * Connie Willis * Vernor Vinge * Kim Stanley Robinson * Neal Stephenson * Larry Niven * Hell, even John Scalzi If it weren't for the "alive" requirement, I'd include Iain M. Banks. :-( Regardless, I highly recommend anything Banks has written over anything of Card's. If we're willing to include fantasy... * Brandon Sanderson * Patrick Rothfuss * George R. R. Martin * Terry Pratchett * Mira Grant * Jim Butcher This just from a brief glance over my most-recent on Goodreads. There is lots and lots of good Sci-Fi and Fantasy out there, and I'd be willing to argue any of these authors over Card in terms of quality. (Though -- to be fair -- I was monumentally unimpressed with Card even before I knew his politics.) A few of the authors on my list have politics I disagree with as well, but they at least are much less obnoxious and hateful about it.
    - e12e 13y ago
      * Samuel R. Delany * Bruce Sterling
  - alinajaf 13y ago
    I envy you because you've yet to discover Greg Egan. You'll want Axiomatic, Permutation City and Diaspora, in that order.

theorique 13y ago

You can't self-righteously BitTorrent oil, so I would say probably not. (On the other hand, American natural gas and Canadian tar sands may break us free from dependence on the Saudis and their deplorable political and social system.)

arethuza 13y ago
I just finished a rather excellent (if slightly depressing) book on the links between the US government and Saudi Arabia that suggests those links are rather deeper than you might suspect: http://www.amazon.com/Sleeping-Devil-Washington-Saudi-Crude/dp/1400052688 http://www.amazon.com/Sleeping-Devil-Washington-Saudi-Crude/... [NB: From what I can tell the author, Bob Baer, is fairly credible - he is a former CIA field officer with a lot of experience in the Middle East.]
- e12e 13y ago
  He's autobiography on his time in the CIA, "See No Evil" is also interesting (and depressing). edit: While we're on the subject of sci-fi and capitalism; I highly recommend Bruce Sterling's latest book, the Zenith Angle: http://www.amazon.com/The-Zenith-Angle-Bruce-Sterling/dp/0345468651/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373477221&sr=8-1&keywords=zenith+angle http://www.amazon.com/The-Zenith-Angle-Bruce-Sterling/dp/034...
- theorique 13y ago
  Thanks, I will check it out!

smoyer 13y ago

Card is a Mormon and I have no problem with his belief that homosexual behaviors are wrong. Tolerance is different from belief though and if he doesn't practice tolerance, why should he expect people to tolerate his religion-based beliefs? One problem I see is that so many times, beliefs are also linked to hatred. There's really no place for hatred when two parties are trying to practice tolerance.

Symmetry 13y ago
There's a big difference between saying "Gay marriage is bad and people who support it should feel bad" and "A government which allows gay marriage must be overthrown by any means necessary." The former I can ignore, the later not so much.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  I don't think so. Using another picked on minority, I don't consider a "casual" neo-nazi skinhead and a dedicated one to be on particularly different levels. They both disgust me fairly equally (if for no other reason, then because the former incubate and insulate the later.)

ideonexus 13y ago

You've never gotten one of these emails? http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/saudigas.asp http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/saudigas.asp People boycott in America for political reasons all the time. I don't particularly care about this boycott, but I'm not going to ridicule them for exercising their right to free association. If they don't want their money going to a bigot, that's their prerogative. If a person wants to boycott Chick Filet because of their stance on gay marriage, Heinz Ketchup because John Kerry's wife owns it, or any other good or service where someone their money will go to political views they do not support, then that is their Constitutional right. It's also your right to ridicule them, but maybe you should try and come up with some concrete examples instead of just flinging random, unsupported assumptions about moral inconsistencies you think they exhibit.

max_wall_2000 13y ago

Ah, the old "why aren't they doing this instead" argument against activism. There should be an internet law for that one.

erikpukinskis 13y ago

I'm someone who has spent a lot of my life trying, often failing, to "be good". More and more, it seems like an impossible goal: On the one side you can retreat to the woods and live off of roots and berries trying not to do any direct harm. But then, depending on your privilege, you leave on the table so many opportunities to steer the ship of society in a less harmful direction. Or, at the other end of the spectrum you can yield all reaponsibility for your direct actions, instead throwing yourself into the wheeling and dealing of systems of harm, trying to invest what privilege you have to gain leverage so that you can make a bigger difference, focusing only on some theoretical calculus of your global influence, measuring yourself by your imagined net global effect. Or, more likely, you pick something in between. In the end, we all make a personal decision about what we are willing to sacrifice. I often use oil, even though I know it's harmful, because I think my boycott of it would cost the world more than it would gain. I could be wrong, but that's my best guess based on my (flawed) understanding of my self and my world. And I may boycott Ender's Game and I do not think that's hypocritical. It's just an acknowledgement that there are limits to our power and we must choose our battles.

JoeAltmaier 13y ago
'Not seeing a movie' is a pretty small battle. Did you act politically in favor/against the issue? Write a letter to your congressperson? Speak publicly on the subject? We must not imagine for a second that a personal boycott is a significant political/moral act to anyone but ourselves. I agree, you must do what you can, but the movie is a trivial point at best. Your posting on this forum is more significant than, probably, the entire boycott issue.
- shiven 13y ago
  Voting with your dollars is where it all begins. Don't underestimate the power of a single cent.
  - Joeboy 13y ago
    That's true if you invest your dollars in supporting political action. A personal boycott is going to have no impact on anything.

seivan 13y ago

I do.

jlgreco 13y ago

When I am aware of a connection, you are damn straight I make a point of avoiding giving them my money. There are a number of places that have been stricken from my vacation checklist for this reason.