5 ms·

Hand Shaking Is So Medieval. Let’s End It.

12 points by vaksel 18y ago

mseebach 18y ago
I hate the "it's old, ergo it's bad" line of arguments. His hygiene argument, which seems to be quite secondary, is also bad. Being in the same room as someone who sneezes will also get you his germs. The solution is not to end the medieval, heathen practise of interacting with other people in real life, but to stay at home when you're sick - parallel to keeping your hands clean, doubly so if you expect to be shaking hands.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- estromberg 18y ago
  I think he makes quite clear that the main argument is that it is not hygienic. In fact his argument that it is an old practice plays into to his hygiene argument. I think what he is saying is that the practice was developed before the germ theory of disease; before people truly knew how disease was spread. With our "updated" knowledge, we should have an "updated" system of greeting. So, though I would usually agree with your point about hating "it's old, ergo it's bad" types of arguments, I don't really think it applies here.
- VBprogrammer 18y ago
  I completely agree with you. Lets think of a few things which are also medieval or even older! Well there is farming, should probably stop that, oh and preserving food, should probably stop that too. What the author seems to have completely missed is the social bonding and the shear volume of information one can share in that second or two of holding hands.
theoneill 18y ago
"Whenever I do shake a hand I’m completely aware of it, can’t stop thinking about it, until I can wash my hands." This seems to be more an article about Arrington than about social customs.
- zcrar70 18y ago
  Yup, agreed - he obviously has a particular neurosis, and seems to hope/expect that the population of the world will change their habits accordingly...
  - patio11 18y ago
    the population of the world will change their habits accordingly I went to dinner tonight with 9 people from 4 countries and got bowed, hugged, and airkissed, but the only other shaker in the room was the Japanese salaryman. OK, check that, the other Japanese salaryman.
rationalbeaver 18y ago
Take the Michael Jackson way out. Wear creepy white gloves.
dimitar 18y ago
Mild hypochondria?
- electromagnetic 18y ago
  No, with mild hypochondria he'd be going to the doctors because he thinks he has a cold. He reads like borderline OCD, it hasn't quite had a complete effect on his life yet, but he admits to only thinking about washing his hands after shaking someone's hand and that even his colleagues have noticed he leaves meetings to wash his hands. He's got something way more insidious than hypochondria.
  - awt 18y ago
    Hypochondria is pretty insidious. You actually believe you have the disease. It's reality.
sdirge 18y ago
Arrington needs one of these: http://store.pksafety.net/tycbrlevsuit.html http://store.pksafety.net/tycbrlevsuit.html Problem solved.
- zcrar70 18y ago
  Only $856 in the sale! Bargain. Perhaps a kind-hearted friend might consider it for his next birthday?
gills 18y ago
I'm just curious: how does the man open doors?
- pmjordan 18y ago
  Interns? Edit: snark aside, this is a valid question. Especially bathroom doors, considering he admits to rushing off to the bathroom to wash his hands and his claim that people don't wash their hands after visiting the bathroom. Edit 2: I'm starting to feel a little bad for joining in on the Arrington bashing, the guy sounds like he's got some form of OCD neurosis. Though I suppose calling for a ban on handshakes (unthinkable in many cultures) as a result of it strikes me as self-centred.
  - estromberg 18y ago
    Wash hands, dry hands with paper towel, open door with paper towel
    - pmjordan 18y ago
      Someone is so going to steal all the paper towels from the men's bathrooms at the next tech conference in order to trap Michael Arrington.
    - gills 18y ago
      That's what I do :) I've noticed an increased number of garbage cans near doors as well, in many places, so I think it's catching on. I wasn't trying to bash Arrington, btw. He has a point about germs. Especially with the sheeple freaking out about Fludor the Burninator and such. But a handshake ultimately is about showing trust (whether rooted in showing lack of a weapon or not), and here he is saying outright that he does not trust anyone else to keep their hands clean to his obviously-high personal standard. I repsect that he's willing to be forthright about it, though I think carrying a travel-sized bottle of Purell might be a solution with milder social consequences in certain business settings.
      - electromagnetic 18y ago
pierrefar 18y ago
I'm keep my hands clean and happy to not shake Mr. Arrington's hand if the chance ever arises. Sheesh.
tyn 18y ago
In my previous job whenever someone entered the open space office in the morning was giving a handshake to everybody that was already there. I think this is a french thing, there was a french majority, but eventually everybody (except me - I was just saying "hi everybody" when entering the room) was doing this. Apart from the fact that it was distracting (imagine you were first in the office, you had 25 people coming to shake hands and you couldn't concentrate from the moment someone entered the door), I find it also completely useless. What's the point in shaking hands with people you see every day? I find it similar to bringing flowers to your wife every day. After a while it will mean nothing but if you stop it she will wonder why.
electromagnetic 18y ago
The authors admitted behavior reads like classic OCD. He shakes someones hand and he can't think of anything else but washing his hand, and he'll excuse himself from meetings often enough that it's drawing colleagues attention. He's quite possibly only a few steps away from ruining his own life with obsession. What happens when this obsession starts interfering to the point it compromises his output and quality? Well that's usually when people start getting fired. The argument against shaking hands is absurdly stupid. The relatively few bacterial and even fewer viral infections that spread solely through contact, usually aren't going to put you out of work as to spread they cannot stop their host from interacting with other people. Then there's the whole argument about fungal infections being spread through contact, which I personally find hilarious as if you've ever touched the dirt growing up or pet a dog that's dug in the dirt then you're already carrying a huge swathe of fungals on your body. What happens, like in most common infections, is that something (usually the person being too clean can trigger it) causes an imbalance and suddenly you get a breakout. The infections that affect us today, aren't spread how they were in the 2nd BC. Most major infections are airborne and can easily be caught whilst in a confined space (IE elevator). This is why winter is the major flu season, not because of temperatures and people getting 'cold' (incidentally, a colder body temperature would actually inhibit viral and bacterial growth) but because no one goes outside.
- timr 18y ago
  Arrington's argument is not "absurdly stupid", and even if he sounds a bit obsessive on this issue, he has the advantage of being right. Meanwhile, you're Not Even Wrong -- there are many types of bacteria and viruses that are spread by skin contact. Any virologist or microbiologist will tell you that skin contact is a great way to spread viruses and bacteria. In fact, it's pretty widely assumed that aerosol transmission is mediated via skin contact as well: when you sneeze or cough, the droplets fall to surfaces quickly. Someone else then touches those surfaces, touches their mouth, nose or eyes, and voila -- cold transmission. The same thing happens much more directly via handshakes. There's a reason that public health people insist that you need to wash your hands after going to the bathroom. Do you sincerely believe that they'd be so worried about it, if there were "relatively few" infections that could be spread by skin contact? Finally, it really bugs me that your comment is +11, when you spend most of your time insulting Arrington for making a (relatively well-informed) argument, and only a very small amount of time making your own (unproven and incorrect) assertions. If you're going to insult someone for making an argument, at least come to the table armed with something more than the opposite opinion.
patrickg-zill 18y ago
As a fan of the TV show "Monk" the first thing I thought of was his catchphrase "Wipe! Wipe! Wipe!" *from the article: "Whenever I do shake a hand I’m completely aware of it, can’t stop thinking about it, until I can wash my hands."
grinich 18y ago
If he knew how many germs are on everyday objects, I don't think he'd be so worried about shaking hands.
- awt 18y ago
  It seems strange that so many people are concerned about bacteria. When was the last time you got sick from bacteria (In the US)? It seems like most infectious disease these days is caused by viruses.
  - chancho 18y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methicillin-resistant_Staphylococcus_aureus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methicillin-resistant_Staphyloc... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrotizing_fasciitis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrotizing_fasciitis These are rare, but strep throat is pretty common.
robotrout 18y ago
It looks like anybody with a start-up that was some sort of technology / personal-hygiene combo would guarantee a write-up in techcrunch. I'd like to announce my Golgafrinchan telephone sanitizer service. We also do keyboards.
Keyframe 18y ago
I have no idea who this guy is, apparently he is popular around HN (I'm not really into startups or that culture I guess), but I feel bad for saying it like this - stop being a pussy and be a man damnit.
TweedHeads 18y ago
Next time before greeting MA pick your nose ;-)
gojomo 18y ago
Something to think about: when transmitting germs via handshakes, the bugs might in fact be features. [har, har] Assume that you only shake hands with people with no visible symptoms, and that the very sickest people do manage to segregate themselves (and their sneezes/coughs) moreso than the mildly sick. Then, the strains you're picking up are the weakest ones. Getting mild versions of infections helps calibrate and train the immune system... often protecting against worse cousins of the same bugs. People passing along mild bugs are doing you -- and your 'herd' -- a favor. (This is a version of the 'hygeine hypothesis' scaled up to adults, social conventions, and societies/herd-immunities.)
menloparkbum 18y ago
I wonder if the nature of his work means that he's always shaking hands. I really can't remember the last time I had to shake a stranger's hand. If I had to do it all the time, I'd probably also develop an OCD annoyance about it.
sdirge 18y ago
What does he do with money? Boil it? NOOOOO I dont want your cash! It has cooties..
xiaoma 18y ago
Harlow’s experiments into the social development of monkeys demonstrated that physical contact was of vital importance, especially for the young. I suspect that severely limiting handshakes, hugs, back-pats, and other common contact would harm our health, not help it.
pie 18y ago
It seems strange to me that nobody's mentioned that a good chunk of society might actually enjoy shaking hands with one another. Even in the depths of germ paranoia, it seems silly to focus on other peoples' hands - there's much worse out there.
vicaya 18y ago
I'm fan of palm-fist salute (in martial art.) It predates Medieval but decidedly more hygienic :)

12 points by vaksel 18y ago

I hate the "it's old, ergo it's bad" line of arguments. His hygiene argument, which seems to be quite secondary, is also bad. Being in the same room as someone who sneezes will also get you his germs. The solution is not to end the medieval, heathen practise of interacting with other people in real life, but to stay at home when you're sick - parallel to keeping your hands clean, doubly so if you expect to be shaking hands.

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
estromberg 18y ago
I think he makes quite clear that the main argument is that it is not hygienic. In fact his argument that it is an old practice plays into to his hygiene argument. I think what he is saying is that the practice was developed before the germ theory of disease; before people truly knew how disease was spread. With our "updated" knowledge, we should have an "updated" system of greeting. So, though I would usually agree with your point about hating "it's old, ergo it's bad" types of arguments, I don't really think it applies here.
VBprogrammer 18y ago
I completely agree with you. Lets think of a few things which are also medieval or even older! Well there is farming, should probably stop that, oh and preserving food, should probably stop that too. What the author seems to have completely missed is the social bonding and the shear volume of information one can share in that second or two of holding hands.

theoneill 18y ago

"Whenever I do shake a hand I’m completely aware of it, can’t stop thinking about it, until I can wash my hands." This seems to be more an article about Arrington than about social customs.

zcrar70 18y ago
Yup, agreed - he obviously has a particular neurosis, and seems to hope/expect that the population of the world will change their habits accordingly...
- patio11 18y ago
  the population of the world will change their habits accordingly I went to dinner tonight with 9 people from 4 countries and got bowed, hugged, and airkissed, but the only other shaker in the room was the Japanese salaryman. OK, check that, the other Japanese salaryman.

rationalbeaver 18y ago

Take the Michael Jackson way out. Wear creepy white gloves.

dimitar 18y ago

Mild hypochondria?

electromagnetic 18y ago
No, with mild hypochondria he'd be going to the doctors because he thinks he has a cold. He reads like borderline OCD, it hasn't quite had a complete effect on his life yet, but he admits to only thinking about washing his hands after shaking someone's hand and that even his colleagues have noticed he leaves meetings to wash his hands. He's got something way more insidious than hypochondria.
- awt 18y ago
  Hypochondria is pretty insidious. You actually believe you have the disease. It's reality.

sdirge 18y ago

Arrington needs one of these: http://store.pksafety.net/tycbrlevsuit.html http://store.pksafety.net/tycbrlevsuit.html Problem solved.

zcrar70 18y ago
Only $856 in the sale! Bargain. Perhaps a kind-hearted friend might consider it for his next birthday?

gills 18y ago

I'm just curious: how does the man open doors?

pmjordan 18y ago
Interns? Edit: snark aside, this is a valid question. Especially bathroom doors, considering he admits to rushing off to the bathroom to wash his hands and his claim that people don't wash their hands after visiting the bathroom. Edit 2: I'm starting to feel a little bad for joining in on the Arrington bashing, the guy sounds like he's got some form of OCD neurosis. Though I suppose calling for a ban on handshakes (unthinkable in many cultures) as a result of it strikes me as self-centred.
- estromberg 18y ago
  Wash hands, dry hands with paper towel, open door with paper towel
  - pmjordan 18y ago
    Someone is so going to steal all the paper towels from the men's bathrooms at the next tech conference in order to trap Michael Arrington.
  - gills 18y ago
    That's what I do :) I've noticed an increased number of garbage cans near doors as well, in many places, so I think it's catching on. I wasn't trying to bash Arrington, btw. He has a point about germs. Especially with the sheeple freaking out about Fludor the Burninator and such. But a handshake ultimately is about showing trust (whether rooted in showing lack of a weapon or not), and here he is saying outright that he does not trust anyone else to keep their hands clean to his obviously-high personal standard. I repsect that he's willing to be forthright about it, though I think carrying a travel-sized bottle of Purell might be a solution with milder social consequences in certain business settings.
    - electromagnetic 18y ago

pierrefar 18y ago

I'm keep my hands clean and happy to not shake Mr. Arrington's hand if the chance ever arises. Sheesh.

tyn 18y ago

In my previous job whenever someone entered the open space office in the morning was giving a handshake to everybody that was already there. I think this is a french thing, there was a french majority, but eventually everybody (except me - I was just saying "hi everybody" when entering the room) was doing this. Apart from the fact that it was distracting (imagine you were first in the office, you had 25 people coming to shake hands and you couldn't concentrate from the moment someone entered the door), I find it also completely useless. What's the point in shaking hands with people you see every day? I find it similar to bringing flowers to your wife every day. After a while it will mean nothing but if you stop it she will wonder why.

electromagnetic 18y ago

The authors admitted behavior reads like classic OCD. He shakes someones hand and he can't think of anything else but washing his hand, and he'll excuse himself from meetings often enough that it's drawing colleagues attention. He's quite possibly only a few steps away from ruining his own life with obsession. What happens when this obsession starts interfering to the point it compromises his output and quality? Well that's usually when people start getting fired. The argument against shaking hands is absurdly stupid. The relatively few bacterial and even fewer viral infections that spread solely through contact, usually aren't going to put you out of work as to spread they cannot stop their host from interacting with other people. Then there's the whole argument about fungal infections being spread through contact, which I personally find hilarious as if you've ever touched the dirt growing up or pet a dog that's dug in the dirt then you're already carrying a huge swathe of fungals on your body. What happens, like in most common infections, is that something (usually the person being too clean can trigger it) causes an imbalance and suddenly you get a breakout. The infections that affect us today, aren't spread how they were in the 2nd BC. Most major infections are airborne and can easily be caught whilst in a confined space (IE elevator). This is why winter is the major flu season, not because of temperatures and people getting 'cold' (incidentally, a colder body temperature would actually inhibit viral and bacterial growth) but because no one goes outside.

timr 18y ago
Arrington's argument is not "absurdly stupid", and even if he sounds a bit obsessive on this issue, he has the advantage of being right. Meanwhile, you're Not Even Wrong -- there are many types of bacteria and viruses that are spread by skin contact. Any virologist or microbiologist will tell you that skin contact is a great way to spread viruses and bacteria. In fact, it's pretty widely assumed that aerosol transmission is mediated via skin contact as well: when you sneeze or cough, the droplets fall to surfaces quickly. Someone else then touches those surfaces, touches their mouth, nose or eyes, and voila -- cold transmission. The same thing happens much more directly via handshakes. There's a reason that public health people insist that you need to wash your hands after going to the bathroom. Do you sincerely believe that they'd be so worried about it, if there were "relatively few" infections that could be spread by skin contact? Finally, it really bugs me that your comment is +11, when you spend most of your time insulting Arrington for making a (relatively well-informed) argument, and only a very small amount of time making your own (unproven and incorrect) assertions. If you're going to insult someone for making an argument, at least come to the table armed with something more than the opposite opinion.

patrickg-zill 18y ago

As a fan of the TV show "Monk" the first thing I thought of was his catchphrase "Wipe! Wipe! Wipe!" *from the article: "Whenever I do shake a hand I’m completely aware of it, can’t stop thinking about it, until I can wash my hands."

grinich 18y ago

If he knew how many germs are on everyday objects, I don't think he'd be so worried about shaking hands.

awt 18y ago
It seems strange that so many people are concerned about bacteria. When was the last time you got sick from bacteria (In the US)? It seems like most infectious disease these days is caused by viruses.
- chancho 18y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methicillin-resistant_Staphylococcus_aureus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methicillin-resistant_Staphyloc... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrotizing_fasciitis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrotizing_fasciitis These are rare, but strep throat is pretty common.

robotrout 18y ago

It looks like anybody with a start-up that was some sort of technology / personal-hygiene combo would guarantee a write-up in techcrunch. I'd like to announce my Golgafrinchan telephone sanitizer service. We also do keyboards.

Keyframe 18y ago

I have no idea who this guy is, apparently he is popular around HN (I'm not really into startups or that culture I guess), but I feel bad for saying it like this - stop being a pussy and be a man damnit.

TweedHeads 18y ago

Next time before greeting MA pick your nose ;-)

gojomo 18y ago

Something to think about: when transmitting germs via handshakes, the bugs might in fact be features. [har, har] Assume that you only shake hands with people with no visible symptoms, and that the very sickest people do manage to segregate themselves (and their sneezes/coughs) moreso than the mildly sick. Then, the strains you're picking up are the weakest ones. Getting mild versions of infections helps calibrate and train the immune system... often protecting against worse cousins of the same bugs. People passing along mild bugs are doing you -- and your 'herd' -- a favor. (This is a version of the 'hygeine hypothesis' scaled up to adults, social conventions, and societies/herd-immunities.)

menloparkbum 18y ago

I wonder if the nature of his work means that he's always shaking hands. I really can't remember the last time I had to shake a stranger's hand. If I had to do it all the time, I'd probably also develop an OCD annoyance about it.

sdirge 18y ago

What does he do with money? Boil it? NOOOOO I dont want your cash! It has cooties..

xiaoma 18y ago

Harlow’s experiments into the social development of monkeys demonstrated that physical contact was of vital importance, especially for the young. I suspect that severely limiting handshakes, hugs, back-pats, and other common contact would harm our health, not help it.

pie 18y ago

It seems strange to me that nobody's mentioned that a good chunk of society might actually enjoy shaking hands with one another. Even in the depths of germ paranoia, it seems silly to focus on other peoples' hands - there's much worse out there.

vicaya 18y ago

I'm fan of palm-fist salute (in martial art.) It predates Medieval but decidedly more hygienic :)