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We can stop it, and redirect it. Once the people start creating new laws, and getting them passed, we'll win. Currently, politicians hand us laws that are draf

We can stop it, and redirect it. Once the people start creating new laws, and getting them passed, we'll win. Currently, politicians hand us laws that are drafted by corporations & lobbyists, then we simply react. It's all about us being more assertive.

jaekwon 13y ago
We will win. We already have the bill of rights. Creating new laws won't help us. It's too late for that. Maybe repealing some laws and executive orders might help... but what we're seeing is the symptom of something bigger than governments. We need to see the cage and step out of it. Educating ourselves and honing our common sense will help us. Becoming self sufficient will help us.
- ChrisAntaki 13y ago
  There's still plenty of time to pass laws. Why would there be a time limit?
  - jaekwon 13y ago
    Because nobody takes the law seriously anymore. Not the cops, not the bankers, not the president, not congressmen, not the underprivileged public, not the entrepreneurs. The judges can't even agree on what is constitutional. The illegitimate wars drag on, since before 9/11. Because the way the bill of rights is treated now is farcical.
  - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
    @jaekwon You sound frustrated, as a lot of people are these days. Is it helping to be reactive to all of the things you mentioned? What if you instead were proactive, and defined a new law & helped promote it? For instance, you mentioned illegal wars. What if we created a new law, that required a popular vote, yearly, to continue any war? That would be awesome, right? :) Let's write some good laws, and get them passed.
    - jaekwon 13y ago
      >> You sound frustrated, as a lot of people are these days You're still in the denial stage. I've been there. You've got a long ways to go. Keep reading about recent history. Next you'll get depressed... I'm actually quite happy nowadays. Every day is a day full of purpose. I'm not reactive, I'm proactive. I see the patterns and I know what's coming. I know what needs to be done. I agree with Lessig on one point and one point alone. Code is law. Not saying we shouldn't try the traditional approach, though. Here's some good news: - http://www.reddit.com/r/restorethefourth/comments/1htaqf/there_is_an_important_senate_election_going_on/ http://www.reddit.com/r/restorethefourth/comments/1htaqf/the...
      - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
        >> You're still in the denial stage. I've been there. You've got a long ways to go. Keep reading about recent history. Next you'll get depressed... I'm sorry to hear you are dealing with depression. >> I'm actually quite happy nowadays. Every day is a day full of purpose. I'm not reactive, I'm proactive. Oh, well that's good.
    - alan_cx 13y ago
      And watch the government and any one with enough money to sway a court roll over them and do what they want anyway? Now that would be frustrating.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
fpgeek 13y ago
> Once the people start creating new laws, and getting them passed, we'll win. There's an important step you forgot to include: Getting the new laws enforced. When most of the people in charge of the enforcement are used to (and may well have liked) the old laws, that will not be simple.
- ChrisAntaki 13y ago
  Could you provide an example? Most police & military have good intentions, in my experience.
  - jaekwon 13y ago
    Cash money trumps good intentions when it comes to systemic corruption. A bit off-topic but related to law enforcement: http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/“why_did_you_shoot_me_i_was_reading_a_book_the_new_warrior_cop_is_out_of_control/ http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/“why_did_you_shoot_me_i_was_...
  - chii 13y ago
    you forget that a lot of human institutions are very hierarchical. Sure, most people in most institutions have good intentions, but it is usually the top that makes the rules/policy decisions, and it's more likely than not that those at the top don't have good intentions...
    - mpyne 13y ago
      Why is that more likely, if you choose those at the top appropriately?
alan_cx 13y ago
Laws: rules for the weak, guidance for the powerful.
a3n 13y ago
By my layman's point of view, we already have existing laws that are being flouted, among the the 4th Amendment which requires specific warrants for specific investigations, and the various laws authorizing and limiting surveillance. They do whatever they want despite these existing laws, by a) just doing it, and b) getting the administration through the Attorney General to reinterpret laws so that what was illegal is now justified by the very laws that previously made things illegal, and c) a captive, secret court that only hears one side of any query by the government and rubber stamps all NSA actions. Given that, what good would a new law do? They already have everything in place to subvert any law they want, and their chief tool is mere will. What might change things is public outrage and muscular congressional hearings, a la Watergate. I can't see that ever happening again.

jaekwon 13y ago

We will win. We already have the bill of rights. Creating new laws won't help us. It's too late for that. Maybe repealing some laws and executive orders might help... but what we're seeing is the symptom of something bigger than governments. We need to see the cage and step out of it. Educating ourselves and honing our common sense will help us. Becoming self sufficient will help us.

ChrisAntaki 13y ago
There's still plenty of time to pass laws. Why would there be a time limit?
- jaekwon 13y ago
  Because nobody takes the law seriously anymore. Not the cops, not the bankers, not the president, not congressmen, not the underprivileged public, not the entrepreneurs. The judges can't even agree on what is constitutional. The illegitimate wars drag on, since before 9/11. Because the way the bill of rights is treated now is farcical.
- ChrisAntaki 13y ago
  @jaekwon You sound frustrated, as a lot of people are these days. Is it helping to be reactive to all of the things you mentioned? What if you instead were proactive, and defined a new law & helped promote it? For instance, you mentioned illegal wars. What if we created a new law, that required a popular vote, yearly, to continue any war? That would be awesome, right? :) Let's write some good laws, and get them passed.
  - jaekwon 13y ago
    >> You sound frustrated, as a lot of people are these days You're still in the denial stage. I've been there. You've got a long ways to go. Keep reading about recent history. Next you'll get depressed... I'm actually quite happy nowadays. Every day is a day full of purpose. I'm not reactive, I'm proactive. I see the patterns and I know what's coming. I know what needs to be done. I agree with Lessig on one point and one point alone. Code is law. Not saying we shouldn't try the traditional approach, though. Here's some good news: - http://www.reddit.com/r/restorethefourth/comments/1htaqf/there_is_an_important_senate_election_going_on/ http://www.reddit.com/r/restorethefourth/comments/1htaqf/the...
    - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
      >> You're still in the denial stage. I've been there. You've got a long ways to go. Keep reading about recent history. Next you'll get depressed... I'm sorry to hear you are dealing with depression. >> I'm actually quite happy nowadays. Every day is a day full of purpose. I'm not reactive, I'm proactive. Oh, well that's good.
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    And watch the government and any one with enough money to sway a court roll over them and do what they want anyway? Now that would be frustrating.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

fpgeek 13y ago

> Once the people start creating new laws, and getting them passed, we'll win. There's an important step you forgot to include: Getting the new laws enforced. When most of the people in charge of the enforcement are used to (and may well have liked) the old laws, that will not be simple.

ChrisAntaki 13y ago
Could you provide an example? Most police & military have good intentions, in my experience.
- jaekwon 13y ago
  Cash money trumps good intentions when it comes to systemic corruption. A bit off-topic but related to law enforcement: http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/“why_did_you_shoot_me_i_was_reading_a_book_the_new_warrior_cop_is_out_of_control/ http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/“why_did_you_shoot_me_i_was_...
- chii 13y ago
  you forget that a lot of human institutions are very hierarchical. Sure, most people in most institutions have good intentions, but it is usually the top that makes the rules/policy decisions, and it's more likely than not that those at the top don't have good intentions...
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Why is that more likely, if you choose those at the top appropriately?

alan_cx 13y ago

Laws: rules for the weak, guidance for the powerful.

a3n 13y ago

By my layman's point of view, we already have existing laws that are being flouted, among the the 4th Amendment which requires specific warrants for specific investigations, and the various laws authorizing and limiting surveillance. They do whatever they want despite these existing laws, by a) just doing it, and b) getting the administration through the Attorney General to reinterpret laws so that what was illegal is now justified by the very laws that previously made things illegal, and c) a captive, secret court that only hears one side of any query by the government and rubber stamps all NSA actions. Given that, what good would a new law do? They already have everything in place to subvert any law they want, and their chief tool is mere will. What might change things is public outrage and muscular congressional hearings, a la Watergate. I can't see that ever happening again.