4 ms·

There's actually nothing new in this leak. Pine Gap [1] and HMAS Harman [2] were discussed on here a couple of weeks ago. Really what we're seeing here is the c

by ra 13y ago

There's actually nothing new in this leak. Pine Gap [1] and HMAS Harman [2] were discussed on here a couple of weeks ago. Really what we're seeing here is the current generation of Echelon [3]. I'm not saying it's OK, far from it. It's just that there's nothing new in this story. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5884858 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5884858 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5887539 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5887539 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

beedogs 13y ago
Was the "full take" system in the UK mentioned previously? That's the scariest thing, to me. They're literally saving every bit of data that enters or leaves the UK, and they can store three days' worth already.
- DanBC 13y ago
  {EDIT: I meant to upvote you, but I might have accidentally downvoted you. Sorry.} Yes, it has been mentioned previously. UK media is under a notice from the Department of Defence - a D notice - which is an informal arrangement where the DoD asks media not to report things which they think are strategically important, and the media agrees. The Official Secrets Act is the legal framework for secrets. People "Sign the Official Secrets Act", but all that means is that they've been made aware that the act exists. You can be prosecuted for revealing secrets even if you haven't signed the act. (I seem to remember some protesters being prosecuted for publishing photographs of missile transport in the 80s?) So, while the D notice system is informal and is not a prohibition I guess it's a warning about what is considered really important. There's interesting discussion about why a free media pays any attention at all to D Notices. I think the D Notice for the full take system is an abuse of the D Notice system. (Location of troops during war, for example.)
  - chii 13y ago
    exactly - secret keeping is a privilege that is granted to the state in order for it to win fights against an "enemy". What is this enemy that the state is currently fighting that warrants these secrets? i don't believe "terrorists" is the answer.
    - buro9 13y ago
      trade enemies, preservation of self-interest
      - malandrew 13y ago
        Is that a blanket term for everyone that isn't us, or do we actually have an official list of countries we consider trade enemies?
      - beedogs 13y ago
        So "the rest of the world" counts as "trade enemies" now?
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Heh, that's just buffering..... (BTW that was a bad joke, for those who take tings seriously) Tell you what this does mean though, our parliament has been lied too, which is supposed to be a big deal. But I guess all the opposition MP's are too worried that GCHQ know all the porn sites they visit. Lets face it, we all have something to hide, and chances are now that the gov knows about it, or can do with the right Db query.
- madaxe 13y ago
  Does this not mean that GCHQ are the greatest child pornographers on the planet, by their own standards? They've successfully prosecuted and imprisoned private individuals who've ended up with child porn on their computers due to botnets etc., so if they're wilfully collecting this data, they surely have a criminal case to answer?
halviti 13y ago
Nothing new? Did you even read the article? "Tempora is the first 'I save everything' approach ('full take') in the intelligence world. It sucks in all data, no matter what it is, and which rights are violated by it" The other systems have always been given some degree of plausible deniability by government doing some hand-waving and suggesting that they have controlled methods by which wiretaps are only placed on specific targets, for specific reasons, etc. etc. When you start saving everything, especially stuff that you know you are not supposed to, you are violating UK law (Human Rights Act of 1988) as well as international law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Directive) Trying to pass this off as nothing to be concerned about means that you are not paying attention, or don't care.
- ra 13y ago
  Yes of course I read the article. Tempora isn't new news either [1]. > Trying to pass this off as nothing to be concerned about means that you are not paying attention, or don't care. Did you even read my comment? Where did I say nothing to be concerned about? [1] https://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=Tempora https://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=Tempora
- powertower 13y ago
  > When you start saving everything I'm pretty sure that's media sensationalism - were they get quite ahead of the facts and details, and spin the headlines. Or worse, leave out the logic of it all and replace it with something else - the narative the reader wants to believe (ex: they are gathering data on me to be used against me). Not only does it take time to process the data, but an operational window (of that data) needs to be maintained for the next couple of days - were that data can be cross-referenced with the new feed and possibly be mind and connected to new events as they are unfolding. As otherwise it's useless. The data is filtered for specific targets, or on specific triggers, or graph data, which is then kept. The rest (like 99.9999995% or more) is just noise that has no use to intelligence gathering - and I don't see why anyone would store it - or would want to store it.
selimthegrim 13y ago
Meet the new boss, same as the old. http://williambowles.info/spysrus/cia_australia.html http://williambowles.info/spysrus/cia_australia.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falcon_and_the_Snowman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falcon_and_the_Snowman

by ra 13y ago

beedogs 13y ago

Was the "full take" system in the UK mentioned previously? That's the scariest thing, to me. They're literally saving every bit of data that enters or leaves the UK, and they can store three days' worth already.

DanBC 13y ago
{EDIT: I meant to upvote you, but I might have accidentally downvoted you. Sorry.} Yes, it has been mentioned previously. UK media is under a notice from the Department of Defence - a D notice - which is an informal arrangement where the DoD asks media not to report things which they think are strategically important, and the media agrees. The Official Secrets Act is the legal framework for secrets. People "Sign the Official Secrets Act", but all that means is that they've been made aware that the act exists. You can be prosecuted for revealing secrets even if you haven't signed the act. (I seem to remember some protesters being prosecuted for publishing photographs of missile transport in the 80s?) So, while the D notice system is informal and is not a prohibition I guess it's a warning about what is considered really important. There's interesting discussion about why a free media pays any attention at all to D Notices. I think the D Notice for the full take system is an abuse of the D Notice system. (Location of troops during war, for example.)
- chii 13y ago
  exactly - secret keeping is a privilege that is granted to the state in order for it to win fights against an "enemy". What is this enemy that the state is currently fighting that warrants these secrets? i don't believe "terrorists" is the answer.
  - buro9 13y ago
    trade enemies, preservation of self-interest
    - malandrew 13y ago
      Is that a blanket term for everyone that isn't us, or do we actually have an official list of countries we consider trade enemies?
    - beedogs 13y ago
      So "the rest of the world" counts as "trade enemies" now?
alan_cx 13y ago
Heh, that's just buffering..... (BTW that was a bad joke, for those who take tings seriously) Tell you what this does mean though, our parliament has been lied too, which is supposed to be a big deal. But I guess all the opposition MP's are too worried that GCHQ know all the porn sites they visit. Lets face it, we all have something to hide, and chances are now that the gov knows about it, or can do with the right Db query.
madaxe 13y ago
Does this not mean that GCHQ are the greatest child pornographers on the planet, by their own standards? They've successfully prosecuted and imprisoned private individuals who've ended up with child porn on their computers due to botnets etc., so if they're wilfully collecting this data, they surely have a criminal case to answer?

halviti 13y ago

Nothing new? Did you even read the article? "Tempora is the first 'I save everything' approach ('full take') in the intelligence world. It sucks in all data, no matter what it is, and which rights are violated by it" The other systems have always been given some degree of plausible deniability by government doing some hand-waving and suggesting that they have controlled methods by which wiretaps are only placed on specific targets, for specific reasons, etc. etc. When you start saving everything, especially stuff that you know you are not supposed to, you are violating UK law (Human Rights Act of 1988) as well as international law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Directive) Trying to pass this off as nothing to be concerned about means that you are not paying attention, or don't care.

ra 13y ago
Yes of course I read the article. Tempora isn't new news either [1]. > Trying to pass this off as nothing to be concerned about means that you are not paying attention, or don't care. Did you even read my comment? Where did I say nothing to be concerned about? [1] https://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=Tempora https://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=Tempora
powertower 13y ago
> When you start saving everything I'm pretty sure that's media sensationalism - were they get quite ahead of the facts and details, and spin the headlines. Or worse, leave out the logic of it all and replace it with something else - the narative the reader wants to believe (ex: they are gathering data on me to be used against me). Not only does it take time to process the data, but an operational window (of that data) needs to be maintained for the next couple of days - were that data can be cross-referenced with the new feed and possibly be mind and connected to new events as they are unfolding. As otherwise it's useless. The data is filtered for specific targets, or on specific triggers, or graph data, which is then kept. The rest (like 99.9999995% or more) is just noise that has no use to intelligence gathering - and I don't see why anyone would store it - or would want to store it.

selimthegrim 13y ago

Meet the new boss, same as the old. http://williambowles.info/spysrus/cia_australia.html http://williambowles.info/spysrus/cia_australia.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falcon_and_the_Snowman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falcon_and_the_Snowman