7 ms·

This is now getting so entirely overwhelming. It's like you're on the beach getting repeatedly smashed by waves that get bigger and bigger. There's nothing you

This is now getting so entirely overwhelming. It's like you're on the beach getting repeatedly smashed by waves that get bigger and bigger. There's nothing you can do to fight it, stop it, or move, and it just keeps coming. I feel so helpless with every new leak.

jaekwon 13y ago
You're far, far from alone. Relax and join the movement... it's going to be a long ride. --> http://goo.gl/lc7Fz http://goo.gl/lc7Fz
- kimlelly 13y ago
  Except: DON'T relax. These feelings of frustration are absolutely NORMAL and they must be channeled into action, not relaxation.
  - jaekwon 13y ago
    Except: DON'T panic! And don't forget your towel.
hkmurakami 13y ago
well if it's a tsunami situation we quite literally need to run for the hills. The question is, where are "the hills" and how do we get there in this situation? Or maybe we need to democratize the analogue of a submarine.
- jaekwon 13y ago
  Tsunami situation verified. Relax, nobody on our side wants a violent revolution. The only hills you will find are the global enlightened community. You will initially get depressed as you see the injustice around you. You can deny what you see and go back to browsing Facebook. Or, you can embrace the movement. I've been traveling the rabbit hole and I assure you that the thing is manageable if you put your time into it. Here are some guidelines: - You already have local communities (hacker/creative spaces) that have members who are on top of the news and working to escape the system. Find them. - Find the commonality between libertarianism, anarcho-capitalism and anarcho-socialism. None of these ideologies are sufficient, but the conversations and debates are converging. - Learn history and social/economic sciences. The history of debt money, the collapse of rome, today's corporate power structures, etc. - Understand how the dollar works and how it's controlled and enforced. Support alternative currencies. - Support open hardware. The EFF is your friend. Learn more about encryption and understand the vulnerabilities online and offline. I could go on, share links, etc.
  - user24 13y ago
    > I could go on, share links, etc. Please do.
    - jaekwon 13y ago
      We're understanding our reality better. Whistleblower leaks and more... - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSSKpL87_Rs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSSKpL87_Rs - http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/06/19/podcast-show-112-nsa-whistleblower-goes-on-record-reveals-new-information-names-culprits/ http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/06/19/podcast-show-112-... - http://m.democracynow.org/web_exclusives/1781 http://m.democracynow.org/web_exclusives/1781 - http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/23/1218189/-HBGary-Palantir-Prism-Facebook-The-Industrial-Surveillance-Complex http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/23/1218189/-HBGary-Pal... Books illuminate how power works - http://www.amazon.com/The-Master-Switch-Information-Empires/dp/1455884391 http://www.amazon.com/The-Master-Switch-Information-Empires/... - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5000_Years http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5000_Years - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_People's_History_of_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_People's_History_of_the_Unite... (I haven't read it yet, I've heard good and bad things about the book) - http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf (I've only skimmed a few sections, but I suspect this is good to understand anarcho-capitalism) To combat low level surveillance, we need open hardware. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_hardware_projects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_hardware_pr... - http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=2686 http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=2686 Our own mesh network for community penetration. Mesh networks sort of died off a decade ago, but there is a resurgence. - http://karmanebula.com/chicagomeshnet/ http://karmanebula.com/chicagomeshnet/ - https://www.wepay.com/donations/oakland-community-mesh-network https://www.wepay.com/donations/oakland-community-mesh-netwo... Bitcoin is still growing, and more people are understanding the mechanism behind it. Many altcoins are just Bitcoin ripoffs, but we'll see interesting developments going forward. - https://cryptocointalk.com https://cryptocointalk.com - There are many technologies and protocols being built for distributed exchanges, etc. Discussions under bitcointalk.org etc. Other links - http://liberationtechnology.stanford.edu/ http://liberationtechnology.stanford.edu/ - https://mailman.stanford.edu/pipermail/liberationtech/2013-July/thread.html https://mailman.stanford.edu/pipermail/liberationtech/2013-J... - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism - http://www.democracynow.org/ http://www.democracynow.org/ - http://www.dailykos.com/ http://www.dailykos.com/ Those have just been on my mind recently. Reddit is actually a good source of reading material once you have an account, unfollow stupid subreddits and follow the right ones like politics, worldnews, restorethefourth, libertarian, anarcho_* etc.
ra 13y ago
There's actually nothing new in this leak. Pine Gap [1] and HMAS Harman [2] were discussed on here a couple of weeks ago. Really what we're seeing here is the current generation of Echelon [3]. I'm not saying it's OK, far from it. It's just that there's nothing new in this story. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5884858 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5884858 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5887539 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5887539 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON
- beedogs 13y ago
  Was the "full take" system in the UK mentioned previously? That's the scariest thing, to me. They're literally saving every bit of data that enters or leaves the UK, and they can store three days' worth already.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    {EDIT: I meant to upvote you, but I might have accidentally downvoted you. Sorry.} Yes, it has been mentioned previously. UK media is under a notice from the Department of Defence - a D notice - which is an informal arrangement where the DoD asks media not to report things which they think are strategically important, and the media agrees. The Official Secrets Act is the legal framework for secrets. People "Sign the Official Secrets Act", but all that means is that they've been made aware that the act exists. You can be prosecuted for revealing secrets even if you haven't signed the act. (I seem to remember some protesters being prosecuted for publishing photographs of missile transport in the 80s?) So, while the D notice system is informal and is not a prohibition I guess it's a warning about what is considered really important. There's interesting discussion about why a free media pays any attention at all to D Notices. I think the D Notice for the full take system is an abuse of the D Notice system. (Location of troops during war, for example.)
    - chii 13y ago
      exactly - secret keeping is a privilege that is granted to the state in order for it to win fights against an "enemy". What is this enemy that the state is currently fighting that warrants these secrets? i don't believe "terrorists" is the answer.
ChrisAntaki 13y ago
We can stop it, and redirect it. Once the people start creating new laws, and getting them passed, we'll win. Currently, politicians hand us laws that are drafted by corporations & lobbyists, then we simply react. It's all about us being more assertive.
- jaekwon 13y ago
  We will win. We already have the bill of rights. Creating new laws won't help us. It's too late for that. Maybe repealing some laws and executive orders might help... but what we're seeing is the symptom of something bigger than governments. We need to see the cage and step out of it. Educating ourselves and honing our common sense will help us. Becoming self sufficient will help us.
  - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
    There's still plenty of time to pass laws. Why would there be a time limit?
    - jaekwon 13y ago
      Because nobody takes the law seriously anymore. Not the cops, not the bankers, not the president, not congressmen, not the underprivileged public, not the entrepreneurs. The judges can't even agree on what is constitutional. The illegitimate wars drag on, since before 9/11. Because the way the bill of rights is treated now is farcical.
    - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
      @jaekwon You sound frustrated, as a lot of people are these days. Is it helping to be reactive to all of the things you mentioned? What if you instead were proactive, and defined a new law & helped promote it? For instance, you mentioned illegal wars. What if we created a new law, that required a popular vote, yearly, to continue any war? That would be awesome, right? :) Let's write some good laws, and get them passed.
      - 13y ago
kimlelly 13y ago
I'm sure something will eventually happen. Maybe not tomorrow, maybe only in 5 years. The thing is, Edward Snowden was the 1st one to show us he's ready to die for this cause. I'm sure the number of people willing to go further will only increase. And that will ultimately lead to actions. EDIT: The movement will "only" have to make sure not be sabotaged and killed off by the surveillance state, along the way.
- kimlelly 13y ago
  EDIT II: The thing is, life under these circumstances (and the logical consequences which will appear, sooner or later) is only worth so much.

jaekwon 13y ago

You're far, far from alone. Relax and join the movement... it's going to be a long ride. --> http://goo.gl/lc7Fz http://goo.gl/lc7Fz

kimlelly 13y ago
Except: DON'T relax. These feelings of frustration are absolutely NORMAL and they must be channeled into action, not relaxation.
- jaekwon 13y ago
  Except: DON'T panic! And don't forget your towel.

hkmurakami 13y ago

well if it's a tsunami situation we quite literally need to run for the hills. The question is, where are "the hills" and how do we get there in this situation? Or maybe we need to democratize the analogue of a submarine.

jaekwon 13y ago
Tsunami situation verified. Relax, nobody on our side wants a violent revolution. The only hills you will find are the global enlightened community. You will initially get depressed as you see the injustice around you. You can deny what you see and go back to browsing Facebook. Or, you can embrace the movement. I've been traveling the rabbit hole and I assure you that the thing is manageable if you put your time into it. Here are some guidelines: - You already have local communities (hacker/creative spaces) that have members who are on top of the news and working to escape the system. Find them. - Find the commonality between libertarianism, anarcho-capitalism and anarcho-socialism. None of these ideologies are sufficient, but the conversations and debates are converging. - Learn history and social/economic sciences. The history of debt money, the collapse of rome, today's corporate power structures, etc. - Understand how the dollar works and how it's controlled and enforced. Support alternative currencies. - Support open hardware. The EFF is your friend. Learn more about encryption and understand the vulnerabilities online and offline. I could go on, share links, etc.
- user24 13y ago
  > I could go on, share links, etc. Please do.
  - jaekwon 13y ago
    We're understanding our reality better. Whistleblower leaks and more... - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSSKpL87_Rs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSSKpL87_Rs - http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/06/19/podcast-show-112-nsa-whistleblower-goes-on-record-reveals-new-information-names-culprits/ http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/06/19/podcast-show-112-... - http://m.democracynow.org/web_exclusives/1781 http://m.democracynow.org/web_exclusives/1781 - http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/23/1218189/-HBGary-Palantir-Prism-Facebook-The-Industrial-Surveillance-Complex http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/23/1218189/-HBGary-Pal... Books illuminate how power works - http://www.amazon.com/The-Master-Switch-Information-Empires/dp/1455884391 http://www.amazon.com/The-Master-Switch-Information-Empires/... - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5000_Years http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5000_Years - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_People's_History_of_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_People's_History_of_the_Unite... (I haven't read it yet, I've heard good and bad things about the book) - http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf (I've only skimmed a few sections, but I suspect this is good to understand anarcho-capitalism) To combat low level surveillance, we need open hardware. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_hardware_projects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_hardware_pr... - http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=2686 http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=2686 Our own mesh network for community penetration. Mesh networks sort of died off a decade ago, but there is a resurgence. - http://karmanebula.com/chicagomeshnet/ http://karmanebula.com/chicagomeshnet/ - https://www.wepay.com/donations/oakland-community-mesh-network https://www.wepay.com/donations/oakland-community-mesh-netwo... Bitcoin is still growing, and more people are understanding the mechanism behind it. Many altcoins are just Bitcoin ripoffs, but we'll see interesting developments going forward. - https://cryptocointalk.com https://cryptocointalk.com - There are many technologies and protocols being built for distributed exchanges, etc. Discussions under bitcointalk.org etc. Other links - http://liberationtechnology.stanford.edu/ http://liberationtechnology.stanford.edu/ - https://mailman.stanford.edu/pipermail/liberationtech/2013-July/thread.html https://mailman.stanford.edu/pipermail/liberationtech/2013-J... - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism - http://www.democracynow.org/ http://www.democracynow.org/ - http://www.dailykos.com/ http://www.dailykos.com/ Those have just been on my mind recently. Reddit is actually a good source of reading material once you have an account, unfollow stupid subreddits and follow the right ones like politics, worldnews, restorethefourth, libertarian, anarcho_* etc.

ra 13y ago

There's actually nothing new in this leak. Pine Gap [1] and HMAS Harman [2] were discussed on here a couple of weeks ago. Really what we're seeing here is the current generation of Echelon [3]. I'm not saying it's OK, far from it. It's just that there's nothing new in this story. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5884858 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5884858 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5887539 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5887539 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

beedogs 13y ago
Was the "full take" system in the UK mentioned previously? That's the scariest thing, to me. They're literally saving every bit of data that enters or leaves the UK, and they can store three days' worth already.
- DanBC 13y ago
  {EDIT: I meant to upvote you, but I might have accidentally downvoted you. Sorry.} Yes, it has been mentioned previously. UK media is under a notice from the Department of Defence - a D notice - which is an informal arrangement where the DoD asks media not to report things which they think are strategically important, and the media agrees. The Official Secrets Act is the legal framework for secrets. People "Sign the Official Secrets Act", but all that means is that they've been made aware that the act exists. You can be prosecuted for revealing secrets even if you haven't signed the act. (I seem to remember some protesters being prosecuted for publishing photographs of missile transport in the 80s?) So, while the D notice system is informal and is not a prohibition I guess it's a warning about what is considered really important. There's interesting discussion about why a free media pays any attention at all to D Notices. I think the D Notice for the full take system is an abuse of the D Notice system. (Location of troops during war, for example.)
  - chii 13y ago
    exactly - secret keeping is a privilege that is granted to the state in order for it to win fights against an "enemy". What is this enemy that the state is currently fighting that warrants these secrets? i don't believe "terrorists" is the answer.

ChrisAntaki 13y ago

We can stop it, and redirect it. Once the people start creating new laws, and getting them passed, we'll win. Currently, politicians hand us laws that are drafted by corporations & lobbyists, then we simply react. It's all about us being more assertive.

jaekwon 13y ago
We will win. We already have the bill of rights. Creating new laws won't help us. It's too late for that. Maybe repealing some laws and executive orders might help... but what we're seeing is the symptom of something bigger than governments. We need to see the cage and step out of it. Educating ourselves and honing our common sense will help us. Becoming self sufficient will help us.
- ChrisAntaki 13y ago
  There's still plenty of time to pass laws. Why would there be a time limit?
  - jaekwon 13y ago
    Because nobody takes the law seriously anymore. Not the cops, not the bankers, not the president, not congressmen, not the underprivileged public, not the entrepreneurs. The judges can't even agree on what is constitutional. The illegitimate wars drag on, since before 9/11. Because the way the bill of rights is treated now is farcical.
  - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
    @jaekwon You sound frustrated, as a lot of people are these days. Is it helping to be reactive to all of the things you mentioned? What if you instead were proactive, and defined a new law & helped promote it? For instance, you mentioned illegal wars. What if we created a new law, that required a popular vote, yearly, to continue any war? That would be awesome, right? :) Let's write some good laws, and get them passed.
    - 13y ago

kimlelly 13y ago

I'm sure something will eventually happen. Maybe not tomorrow, maybe only in 5 years. The thing is, Edward Snowden was the 1st one to show us he's ready to die for this cause. I'm sure the number of people willing to go further will only increase. And that will ultimately lead to actions. EDIT: The movement will "only" have to make sure not be sabotaged and killed off by the surveillance state, along the way.

kimlelly 13y ago
EDIT II: The thing is, life under these circumstances (and the logical consequences which will appear, sooner or later) is only worth so much.