6 ms·

Speaking as a dad, I hate taking my boys to the playground for the same reason. Moms see "man unaccompanied by woman, must be a predator" - I make a big show ou

by cheald 13y ago

Speaking as a dad, I hate taking my boys to the playground for the same reason. Moms see "man unaccompanied by woman, must be a predator" - I make a big show out of interacting with my boys and obviously being their father, but it's really grating that it's even necessary at all. As to the culture of fear, I blame local news. It's wall-to-wall with alternating RAPISTS EVERYWHERE and LOOKIT THE CUTE PUPPIES, because those are the only stories that can compete with other news media. Telling people that they should be terrified (your neighbor is probably a child molester! Full story at 10!) is an extremely powerful tool, and people eat it up. As a parent, I can understand those moms' reactions, even if I don't condone them. My kids are the most precious thing in the world to me, and I would rather err on the side of caution than ever let something truly traumatic happen to them. But, I think there's a line between being vigilant and being paralyzed in fear because someone with a penis is within 200 yards of your kid.

adrianbye 13y ago
this doesn't happen in non feminist countries (ie usually 3rd world).
- withad 13y ago
  There are a lot of societal differences between first and third world countries and they exist for a lot of reasons. I really don't see why you would pin this particular one, if it even exists, on feminism.
  - adrianbye 13y ago
    i know, feminism is a sacred cow. the truth is that men tend to be highly valued in the 3rd world. by comparison in the west they tend to kill themselves as they get older: http://www.prb.org/Articles/2006/ElderlyWhiteMenAfflictedbyHighSuicideRates.aspx http://www.prb.org/Articles/2006/ElderlyWhiteMenAfflictedbyH... are you aware we've blocked right wing research out of academia, so these issues never get researched properly? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/science/08tier.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/science/08tier.html?_r=0 and that margaret mead was basically a fraud? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming_of_Age_in_Samoa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming_of_Age_in_Samoa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Freeman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Freeman (margaret mead is an early feminist)
    - withad 13y ago
      Yes, men do tend to be highly valued in some countries. And women in such countries tend to be treated as property. What does that have to do with suicide rates of men in the US? And what does any of it have to do with your original point about feminism somehow causing media scare stories? It's unfortunate that politics can have such an influence on science and psychology and sociology are far from the only fields it happens in. But, again, that doesn't somehow prove feminism wrong or your original point correct. Did you even read that link you provided about Margaret Mead? Freeman was accusing her mostly of incompetence (taking jokes/lies as fact is the main example) and Freeman's attacks on Mead's work have themselves been heavily criticised. And even if they hadn't... so what? You're going to condemn the entirety of feminism (and the field of sociology, I suppose) because one person early in its history may have lied?
      - adrianbye 13y ago
        Margaret Mead provided the foundation for feminism to advance by "proving" that culture drove society, not genetics. Unfortunately that isn't true. Genetics shapes culture. One of the interesting things from Mead's "research" was that Samoan women were having a lot of premarital sex in the 1920's. Yet somehow none got pregnant but that was overlooked. When you force people too far out of their natural roles, bad things happen. There's a whole lot more to this and its fascinating to see how people don't realise it. I respect that feminism is the moral case. Genetics is the scientific one, which currently is not respected. There's a balance between the two
        withad 13y ago
        And all that would mean something if (a) all of sociology was somehow based on the work of Margaret Mead, (b) Margaret Mead had been proven fraudulent, (c) proof of bad evidence on one side automatically meant the correctness of the opposite, and (d) you provided any evidence of your claims that genetics somehow drives society towards an ideal that coincidentally lines up perfectly with your preferred gender roles. Since none of those things are true, I'm left to ask again - what the hell does any of this have to do with men getting weird looks in parks?
  - makomk 13y ago
    Well, as far as anyone can tell the idea that women are naturally better parents than men was originally e feminist one, and for the most part feminists are so attached to the idea they never even seem to really question it - after all, it's about doing what's best for the child, and why would you want to get in the way of that? (That's an actual, widely used argument mainstream feminists justify their support for the status quo with.) I've also seen, for example, feminist mums argue that their kids' stay-at-home-dad is unfairly dumping work on them because they have to organise playdates and other social events, when that's almost certainly the result of sexist bias against dads - apparently mums are uncomfortable letting dads get involved in this, it's a common complaint of single dads. They don't even think about whether there may be gender-based reasons why their partner doesn't have access to the social circles they do.
- karmajunkie 13y ago
  In other words, in countries where men make all the rules and run the show nobody dares look askance at a man in a public setting? Go figure.
  - adrianbye 13y ago
    by your statement you'd almost think people like margaret thatcher, Dilma Rousseff and benazir bhutto never existed.
    - ceol 13y ago
      Obviously the existence of a handful of women leaders means sexism is dead, men and women are completely equal, and feminism has warped into an evil movement bent on making men social pariahs.
  - hobs 13y ago
    Does that mean women are setting the rules in America?
    - icebraining 13y ago
      No, the inference from karmajunkie's post is that in America men don't make all the rules.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    Where the heck did that come from? For example, China is arguably a very matriarchal society, and guys take their kids out all the time.
    - ceol 13y ago
      Are you talking about the Mosou? Because they're only about 40,000 strong in a country of 1.34 billion, and aren't even a true matriarchy, as political power tends to be in the hands of men.[0] If you're talking about the rest of China, the absence of modern women leaders has been a concern.[1] I don't see any way you could call China "very matriarchal". [0]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo [1]: http://behindthewall.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/03/07/6206108-chinas-leadership-where-are-the-women?lite http://behindthewall.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/03/07/6206108-ch...
- ccsalvesen 13y ago
  This doesn't happen here in Norway either. It might have something to do with the (more or less) mandatory 14 week paternity leave.
- Killah911 13y ago
  I'm not quite so sure that this is a 1st world thing necessarily. It think it's more of an American thing. During our last vacation in Europe, I was surprised by how people, even at random rest stops along the autobahn were interacting with my kids and did not feel threatened or run off with their kids b/c I was the one taking the kids to the play area. (Albeit, I wasn't the only father/male there) All things being equal, I think it may just be our media. I noticed other parents were playing peek-a-boo with my 2 year old, whereas in the US, I face the same kind of treatment at parks as the author of the article and people in general aren't quite as friendly to kids they don't know(possibly due to similar sentiments).
  - adrianbye 13y ago
    happens in europe, here's an example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10401416 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10401416
  - Cthulhu_ 13y ago
    It does happen in European countries. A few years ago, there was a big pedophilia case involving a male day care worker who had made over 80 victims over the year. Ever since then, male day care workers get confronted with suspicion and distrust from parents - especially homosexual male day care workers - and have major trouble getting a job. A lot quit the job. Men working with children are being increasingly distrusted every time a new case like that pops up. It's blatant sexism, but understandable to a degree.
    - azar1 13y ago
      The patriarchy affects all of us negatively. The sexism here is in favor of keeping women in the home and the men anywhere else (preferably in positions of power). Any person not falling into their respective gender role prescribed by these rules will be punished.
jasonlotito 13y ago
> I make a big show out of interacting with my boys and obviously being their father, but it's really grating that it's even necessary at all. I wanted to disagree with you, but when I read that, I realized that I do the same thing. And as much as I want to play with my boys, I'm also consciously doing it for the reasons you mentioned. I also realize that my interaction with other children is tempered by the realities that I'm a guy. And those thoughts are always lurking there.
jemfinch 13y ago
I take my boys to the playground most days when I pick them up after work: my wife works later than I do, and it gives us something entertaining to burn the time until she gets home. I usually have my DSLR out with some sort of "stalker" lens (e.g. a 70-200mm[0]). If my boys want to play with me, I play--if they don't, I wander around and keep an eye from a distance. If someone else's kid needs pushed on a swing and I'm not busy, I give pushes. If someone else's kid needs help off the monkey bars, I help them down. I've never once felt like I'm under a microscope or anyone thinks "man unaccompanied by woman, must be a predator." 1. The feeling you have could be illusory. It's very possible that moms really aren't thinking that, and you're just a little paranoid. I know the feeling you have, because I had it at first as well, but I think it's seriously overblown and largely unjustified. Until someone actually tells me to get away from their kid--I'd be happy to oblige, of course--I'm reject those feelings for lack of supporting evidence. 2. I live in California--maybe that makes a difference. 3. I consistently go to the same park at around the same time. My wife once took the boys to the park on a day I needed to stay late at work and people came up to her and said, "I recognize your boys, but I don't think I've seen you with them before, you must be their mom." I don't know a single parent there by name, but they know my face and they see me parenting my boys on a regular basis. The point I'm making is that you should try not hate taking your boys to the playground, and the best way to become comfortable with it is to take them more often and involve yourself in the ad hoc community that forms at the playground. You have nothing to worry about, and the more you go, the more you'll see that your concerns are unwarranted. [0] Obligatory pictures of my awesome boys: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jemfinch/sets/72157634058745609/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/jemfinch/sets/72157634058745609...
- cheald 13y ago
  "Hate taking them" was the wrong phrasing. I should have better said "I hate that I have to dread running into someone new when I take them, because then I have to do the I-actually-have-a-legit-reason-to-be-here-dance". The area that I live in isn't very communal (mostly due to weather!), and I don't tend to run into the same people frequently. Seeing new faces is common. Being recognized alleviates the concerns, absolutely. Once you're known, it's fine. My issue is that the default assumption many moms seem to have about men is that they are dangers until proven otherwise. I think if you took your kids and camera to another park where you weren't known, and were taking pictures without playing Obviously Engaged Dad, it might be quite different. Being Visibly Dad "proves otherwise". No such expectation applies to my wife. (Your boys are adorable, btw!)
specialist 13y ago
Speaking as a dad, I hate taking my boys to the playground for the same reason. As a single dad, I never experienced that weirdness. It might be a type thing. Kids, dogs, and moms love me. (But not ex-wives.)

by cheald 13y ago

adrianbye 13y ago

this doesn't happen in non feminist countries (ie usually 3rd world).

withad 13y ago
There are a lot of societal differences between first and third world countries and they exist for a lot of reasons. I really don't see why you would pin this particular one, if it even exists, on feminism.
- adrianbye 13y ago
  i know, feminism is a sacred cow. the truth is that men tend to be highly valued in the 3rd world. by comparison in the west they tend to kill themselves as they get older: http://www.prb.org/Articles/2006/ElderlyWhiteMenAfflictedbyHighSuicideRates.aspx http://www.prb.org/Articles/2006/ElderlyWhiteMenAfflictedbyH... are you aware we've blocked right wing research out of academia, so these issues never get researched properly? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/science/08tier.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/science/08tier.html?_r=0 and that margaret mead was basically a fraud? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming_of_Age_in_Samoa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming_of_Age_in_Samoa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Freeman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Freeman (margaret mead is an early feminist)
  - withad 13y ago
    Yes, men do tend to be highly valued in some countries. And women in such countries tend to be treated as property. What does that have to do with suicide rates of men in the US? And what does any of it have to do with your original point about feminism somehow causing media scare stories? It's unfortunate that politics can have such an influence on science and psychology and sociology are far from the only fields it happens in. But, again, that doesn't somehow prove feminism wrong or your original point correct. Did you even read that link you provided about Margaret Mead? Freeman was accusing her mostly of incompetence (taking jokes/lies as fact is the main example) and Freeman's attacks on Mead's work have themselves been heavily criticised. And even if they hadn't... so what? You're going to condemn the entirety of feminism (and the field of sociology, I suppose) because one person early in its history may have lied?
    - adrianbye 13y ago
      Margaret Mead provided the foundation for feminism to advance by "proving" that culture drove society, not genetics. Unfortunately that isn't true. Genetics shapes culture. One of the interesting things from Mead's "research" was that Samoan women were having a lot of premarital sex in the 1920's. Yet somehow none got pregnant but that was overlooked. When you force people too far out of their natural roles, bad things happen. There's a whole lot more to this and its fascinating to see how people don't realise it. I respect that feminism is the moral case. Genetics is the scientific one, which currently is not respected. There's a balance between the two
      - withad 13y ago
        And all that would mean something if (a) all of sociology was somehow based on the work of Margaret Mead, (b) Margaret Mead had been proven fraudulent, (c) proof of bad evidence on one side automatically meant the correctness of the opposite, and (d) you provided any evidence of your claims that genetics somehow drives society towards an ideal that coincidentally lines up perfectly with your preferred gender roles. Since none of those things are true, I'm left to ask again - what the hell does any of this have to do with men getting weird looks in parks?
- makomk 13y ago
  Well, as far as anyone can tell the idea that women are naturally better parents than men was originally e feminist one, and for the most part feminists are so attached to the idea they never even seem to really question it - after all, it's about doing what's best for the child, and why would you want to get in the way of that? (That's an actual, widely used argument mainstream feminists justify their support for the status quo with.) I've also seen, for example, feminist mums argue that their kids' stay-at-home-dad is unfairly dumping work on them because they have to organise playdates and other social events, when that's almost certainly the result of sexist bias against dads - apparently mums are uncomfortable letting dads get involved in this, it's a common complaint of single dads. They don't even think about whether there may be gender-based reasons why their partner doesn't have access to the social circles they do.
karmajunkie 13y ago
In other words, in countries where men make all the rules and run the show nobody dares look askance at a man in a public setting? Go figure.
- adrianbye 13y ago
  by your statement you'd almost think people like margaret thatcher, Dilma Rousseff and benazir bhutto never existed.
  - ceol 13y ago
    Obviously the existence of a handful of women leaders means sexism is dead, men and women are completely equal, and feminism has warped into an evil movement bent on making men social pariahs.
- hobs 13y ago
  Does that mean women are setting the rules in America?
  - icebraining 13y ago
    No, the inference from karmajunkie's post is that in America men don't make all the rules.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  Where the heck did that come from? For example, China is arguably a very matriarchal society, and guys take their kids out all the time.
  - ceol 13y ago
    Are you talking about the Mosou? Because they're only about 40,000 strong in a country of 1.34 billion, and aren't even a true matriarchy, as political power tends to be in the hands of men.[0] If you're talking about the rest of China, the absence of modern women leaders has been a concern.[1] I don't see any way you could call China "very matriarchal". [0]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo [1]: http://behindthewall.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/03/07/6206108-chinas-leadership-where-are-the-women?lite http://behindthewall.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/03/07/6206108-ch...
ccsalvesen 13y ago
This doesn't happen here in Norway either. It might have something to do with the (more or less) mandatory 14 week paternity leave.
Killah911 13y ago
I'm not quite so sure that this is a 1st world thing necessarily. It think it's more of an American thing. During our last vacation in Europe, I was surprised by how people, even at random rest stops along the autobahn were interacting with my kids and did not feel threatened or run off with their kids b/c I was the one taking the kids to the play area. (Albeit, I wasn't the only father/male there) All things being equal, I think it may just be our media. I noticed other parents were playing peek-a-boo with my 2 year old, whereas in the US, I face the same kind of treatment at parks as the author of the article and people in general aren't quite as friendly to kids they don't know(possibly due to similar sentiments).
- adrianbye 13y ago
  happens in europe, here's an example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10401416 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10401416
- Cthulhu_ 13y ago
  It does happen in European countries. A few years ago, there was a big pedophilia case involving a male day care worker who had made over 80 victims over the year. Ever since then, male day care workers get confronted with suspicion and distrust from parents - especially homosexual male day care workers - and have major trouble getting a job. A lot quit the job. Men working with children are being increasingly distrusted every time a new case like that pops up. It's blatant sexism, but understandable to a degree.
  - azar1 13y ago
    The patriarchy affects all of us negatively. The sexism here is in favor of keeping women in the home and the men anywhere else (preferably in positions of power). Any person not falling into their respective gender role prescribed by these rules will be punished.

jasonlotito 13y ago

> I make a big show out of interacting with my boys and obviously being their father, but it's really grating that it's even necessary at all. I wanted to disagree with you, but when I read that, I realized that I do the same thing. And as much as I want to play with my boys, I'm also consciously doing it for the reasons you mentioned. I also realize that my interaction with other children is tempered by the realities that I'm a guy. And those thoughts are always lurking there.

jemfinch 13y ago

I take my boys to the playground most days when I pick them up after work: my wife works later than I do, and it gives us something entertaining to burn the time until she gets home. I usually have my DSLR out with some sort of "stalker" lens (e.g. a 70-200mm[0]). If my boys want to play with me, I play--if they don't, I wander around and keep an eye from a distance. If someone else's kid needs pushed on a swing and I'm not busy, I give pushes. If someone else's kid needs help off the monkey bars, I help them down. I've never once felt like I'm under a microscope or anyone thinks "man unaccompanied by woman, must be a predator." 1. The feeling you have could be illusory. It's very possible that moms really aren't thinking that, and you're just a little paranoid. I know the feeling you have, because I had it at first as well, but I think it's seriously overblown and largely unjustified. Until someone actually tells me to get away from their kid--I'd be happy to oblige, of course--I'm reject those feelings for lack of supporting evidence. 2. I live in California--maybe that makes a difference. 3. I consistently go to the same park at around the same time. My wife once took the boys to the park on a day I needed to stay late at work and people came up to her and said, "I recognize your boys, but I don't think I've seen you with them before, you must be their mom." I don't know a single parent there by name, but they know my face and they see me parenting my boys on a regular basis. The point I'm making is that you should try not hate taking your boys to the playground, and the best way to become comfortable with it is to take them more often and involve yourself in the ad hoc community that forms at the playground. You have nothing to worry about, and the more you go, the more you'll see that your concerns are unwarranted. [0] Obligatory pictures of my awesome boys: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jemfinch/sets/72157634058745609/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/jemfinch/sets/72157634058745609...

cheald 13y ago
"Hate taking them" was the wrong phrasing. I should have better said "I hate that I have to dread running into someone new when I take them, because then I have to do the I-actually-have-a-legit-reason-to-be-here-dance". The area that I live in isn't very communal (mostly due to weather!), and I don't tend to run into the same people frequently. Seeing new faces is common. Being recognized alleviates the concerns, absolutely. Once you're known, it's fine. My issue is that the default assumption many moms seem to have about men is that they are dangers until proven otherwise. I think if you took your kids and camera to another park where you weren't known, and were taking pictures without playing Obviously Engaged Dad, it might be quite different. Being Visibly Dad "proves otherwise". No such expectation applies to my wife. (Your boys are adorable, btw!)

specialist 13y ago

Speaking as a dad, I hate taking my boys to the playground for the same reason. As a single dad, I never experienced that weirdness. It might be a type thing. Kids, dogs, and moms love me. (But not ex-wives.)