7 ms·

Given that there are people who can't afford a place to live coupled with the deflationary crisis, could someone explain to me what would be the issues, if the

Given that there are people who can't afford a place to live coupled with the deflationary crisis, could someone explain to me what would be the issues, if the Japanese government simply starts giving out a minimum amount of money each month (as has been proposed for poorer countries where people actually face starvation). On the face of it, this solves two problems in one go, the poor have a basic guaranteed income; and printing and distributing money solves the deflationary spiral and pushes the currency towards inflation.

n0mad01 13y ago
But you do know that this inflation rate is kept intentionally high so the national debt rates are lower so the share of debt on GDP doesn't raise that fast?
nopinsight 13y ago
Despite many proposers, there seems to be no real-world implementation of basic income in existence. Apart from fiscal and tax issues to fund the policy, I think there is a strong moral conflict deep within human psyche that people (esp 'lazy' people) should not get something for nothing. What do you guys think? Is there any research on this?
- _delirium 13y ago
  Alaska has a fairly pure form of a basic income, but at such a low level that it's not possible to live on: anyone resident in the state gets about $1k/yr unconditionally, paid out of oil revenues. Many European countries (mainly in northern Europe) have a more bureaucratic system, but one that amounts to a minimum income: if you completely run out of eligibility for anything else, you still get some low level of welfare benefits, and might also be eligible for housing assistance. In Germany for example, there have been some cuts to the benefit, but it is still nearly impossible to fall out of the lowest level of benefit, which is around €375/mo for a single person.
- chipsy 13y ago
  Basic income works against the interests of institutional lobbies. Businesses relying on cheap, disposable workers will find them in much shorter supply if nobody is desperate. Unions are also threatened because the right to collective bargaining competes with the right to quit altogether under a basic income benefit. One can find numerous ways in which the social contracts we're familiar with would become obsolete. In each case the benefit counters economic coercion - a promising and scary prospect.
yelnatz 13y ago
$21 per day is around $600 a month. Is that really the only/cheapest option for that much rent?
- minikomi 13y ago
  There are other issues involved - key money, cleaning deposits, guarantors and laws which lay heavily upon the side of renters - such that landlords can be very difficult to work with. It's not uncommon to have them say "sorry, no foreigners". I'd imagine the same stigma holds for other groups of people.
  - toyg 13y ago
    Yeah, key money in japanese metro areas is said to be absurd - up to 6 months of rent in some cases, and two to three months on average. These people live paycheck to paycheck and struggle to save anything, so key money can be a mirage for them.
    - wahnfrieden 13y ago
      Key money is often not returned too.
- rtpg 13y ago
  Tokyo is pretty expensive, and transportation is also really expensive. I'm paying about $550 for rent at the moment (11m^2, shared restroom/shower) "inside" of Tokyo. I got really lucky finding my place though, most equivalent places around here go for at least $100 more a month. If I were working in Shinjuku, it would probably cost me $100 a month for a commuter pass. Internet is pretty cheap though (you can get a home line for about $30 a month). Still seems to be a bit of a losing proposition, though.
cpursley 13y ago
"if the Japanese government simply starts giving out a minimum amount of money each month" Don't you see? These type of thinking is what has gotten western countries (including Japan) into this crisis in the first place. You can't print your way out of a crisis without harming savers (retired) and young people (lower skilled, less experienced).
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- EliRivers 13y ago
  I don't think the idea is to print money and give it to people. The idea is to take some money from people who have lots and use that.
  - jrs99 13y ago
    Wouldn't they both have the same effect?
    - EliRivers 13y ago
      No. Money printing on a large scale leads to massive inflation, prompting all sorts of exciting economic effects such as capital flight, effective destruction of cash savings, political instability and so on. Taxation is very different.
      - rtpg 13y ago
        >Money printing on a large scale leads to massive inflation I know this is a pretty popular opinion but if you look at the past 15 years, this has been proven to not hold very often.
        EliRivers 13y ago
        The money printing we see in much of the west is implemented differently to how it was implemented in, for example, Zimbabwe. It's also not what I'd call large scale, but it's certainly larger than normal. It takes a much longer route to the hands of the ordinary man (and indeed, often never does - it gets printed and the same day locked away again), and on the way seems to get locked inside ridiculous house price inflation, and stock markets doing far better than they should. I complain about this, but should state that I dumped as much as I could into stocks when interest rates went to near zero and the printing presses started up, and I've done very well out of listed companies that really aren't doing much better than they were before. It all has to go somewhere - it's just not going into bread.
franzwong 13y ago
Japanese government should provide cheap housing indeed. Giving out money does not help much as inflation may occur.

n0mad01 13y ago

But you do know that this inflation rate is kept intentionally high so the national debt rates are lower so the share of debt on GDP doesn't raise that fast?

nopinsight 13y ago

Despite many proposers, there seems to be no real-world implementation of basic income in existence. Apart from fiscal and tax issues to fund the policy, I think there is a strong moral conflict deep within human psyche that people (esp 'lazy' people) should not get something for nothing. What do you guys think? Is there any research on this?

_delirium 13y ago
Alaska has a fairly pure form of a basic income, but at such a low level that it's not possible to live on: anyone resident in the state gets about $1k/yr unconditionally, paid out of oil revenues. Many European countries (mainly in northern Europe) have a more bureaucratic system, but one that amounts to a minimum income: if you completely run out of eligibility for anything else, you still get some low level of welfare benefits, and might also be eligible for housing assistance. In Germany for example, there have been some cuts to the benefit, but it is still nearly impossible to fall out of the lowest level of benefit, which is around €375/mo for a single person.
chipsy 13y ago
Basic income works against the interests of institutional lobbies. Businesses relying on cheap, disposable workers will find them in much shorter supply if nobody is desperate. Unions are also threatened because the right to collective bargaining competes with the right to quit altogether under a basic income benefit. One can find numerous ways in which the social contracts we're familiar with would become obsolete. In each case the benefit counters economic coercion - a promising and scary prospect.

yelnatz 13y ago

$21 per day is around $600 a month. Is that really the only/cheapest option for that much rent?

minikomi 13y ago
There are other issues involved - key money, cleaning deposits, guarantors and laws which lay heavily upon the side of renters - such that landlords can be very difficult to work with. It's not uncommon to have them say "sorry, no foreigners". I'd imagine the same stigma holds for other groups of people.
- toyg 13y ago
  Yeah, key money in japanese metro areas is said to be absurd - up to 6 months of rent in some cases, and two to three months on average. These people live paycheck to paycheck and struggle to save anything, so key money can be a mirage for them.
  - wahnfrieden 13y ago
    Key money is often not returned too.
rtpg 13y ago
Tokyo is pretty expensive, and transportation is also really expensive. I'm paying about $550 for rent at the moment (11m^2, shared restroom/shower) "inside" of Tokyo. I got really lucky finding my place though, most equivalent places around here go for at least $100 more a month. If I were working in Shinjuku, it would probably cost me $100 a month for a commuter pass. Internet is pretty cheap though (you can get a home line for about $30 a month). Still seems to be a bit of a losing proposition, though.

cpursley 13y ago

"if the Japanese government simply starts giving out a minimum amount of money each month" Don't you see? These type of thinking is what has gotten western countries (including Japan) into this crisis in the first place. You can't print your way out of a crisis without harming savers (retired) and young people (lower skilled, less experienced).

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
EliRivers 13y ago
I don't think the idea is to print money and give it to people. The idea is to take some money from people who have lots and use that.
- jrs99 13y ago
  Wouldn't they both have the same effect?
  - EliRivers 13y ago
    No. Money printing on a large scale leads to massive inflation, prompting all sorts of exciting economic effects such as capital flight, effective destruction of cash savings, political instability and so on. Taxation is very different.
    - rtpg 13y ago
      >Money printing on a large scale leads to massive inflation I know this is a pretty popular opinion but if you look at the past 15 years, this has been proven to not hold very often.
      - EliRivers 13y ago
        The money printing we see in much of the west is implemented differently to how it was implemented in, for example, Zimbabwe. It's also not what I'd call large scale, but it's certainly larger than normal. It takes a much longer route to the hands of the ordinary man (and indeed, often never does - it gets printed and the same day locked away again), and on the way seems to get locked inside ridiculous house price inflation, and stock markets doing far better than they should. I complain about this, but should state that I dumped as much as I could into stocks when interest rates went to near zero and the printing presses started up, and I've done very well out of listed companies that really aren't doing much better than they were before. It all has to go somewhere - it's just not going into bread.

franzwong 13y ago

Japanese government should provide cheap housing indeed. Giving out money does not help much as inflation may occur.