7 ms·

> A shift from Windows applications to the web has, contrary to popular belief, not hurt Microsoft's developer story. What the? In the 90's, if you wanted to

> A shift from Windows applications to the web has, contrary to popular belief, not hurt Microsoft's developer story. What the? In the 90's, if you wanted to "program", and if you wanted to show other people your skill, you made a windows executable and distributed it through one of the myriad of windows shareware/freeware websites. "I want to learn to program" meant firing up Visual Basic and having a go. And Microsoft was king, because they had the best tools, and they had the platform everyone was using and targeting. Now, almost noone makes windows executables anymore, if they want to show off their skill. People wanting to learn to program would never use Visual Basic today, it's completely off the radar. They are much more likely to learn some web framework and put up a web app to show the world, or make a phone app and put on an app store. Windows executable? That doesn't run on your iPhone or MacBook or Android. And Microsoft has no idea on how to get the new learners back. They have nothing to offer them.

pjmlp 13y ago
Surely you mean the late 90's, as I still remember distributing MS-DOS stuff via BBS around 1994.
opminion 13y ago
There is a huge cultural divide between what you seem to think and the .Net world. (I agree with you, but know plenty in the other camp and it took me a while to understand them). Someonebody should document that gap, if it hasn't been done, in the same vein as The Cathedral and the Bazaar.
- henrikschroder 13y ago
  I know there are a lot of developers doing a lot of work for a lot of companies on the MS stack. My point is that there's no influx of young aspiring programmers entering that world anymore. The ones that are there now got there by picking up VB or VC++ as kids, but noone is picking those up today, and MS has absolutely no idea on how to attract new developers, none of their offerings are interesting to someone new to the field.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    So you are claiming that the average age of a Microsoft developer (one relying on the Microsoft ecosystem) is edging up rapidly? I would love to see some hard evidence about that, though its definitely plausible. At least on hackernews, the number of Microsoft developers seems to be quite small (a poll would be interesting though). Disclaimer: working for Microsoft, speaking for self.
    - k-mcgrady 13y ago
      I think on HN that's probably true but a lot of people here seem to forget that most programmers get jobs at a bank/insurance company etc. and spend all day coding in C#/VB or Java. I don't think being a MS developer is 'fashionable' but among young programmers who just want to do what they're told and bring home a pay check I'm sure it's still very common.
      - rbanffy 13y ago
        > young programmers who just want to do what they're told and bring home a pay check It breaks my heart to see young people with such low aspirations. Young people are here to change the world, not to be mutilated into conformity.
        rwhite 13y ago
        I don't get this holier than thou attitude. You mean you can't do innovative things in C# that you can do in Ruby? How will LISP help an investment bank? How do the millions of CRUD apps in startups written in Ruby, PHP or Python change the world? What about F# being made a first class member of .NET? An enterprise app in Ruby will be as boring as the one in C#. Its to do with a risk averse attitude instead of adopting the framework of the week. A robotics program written in C# or F# can change the world. It breaks my heart to see an empty superiority complex at work here. It's akin to carpenters feeling great about their choice of tools and insulting others choices rather than showing off their allegedly wonderful creations they built with the tools. For example, take StackOverflow, written in .NET and scaling much better than other web apps by using the right tools rather than getting caught up in partisan arguments.
300bps 13y ago
Microsoft development tools are substantially used for web development now. I'm not sure why you're aiming your criticism at Windows executables. ASP.NET MVC is a great web framework.
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  ASP.NET is no longer the go to choice for people wanting to learn about web development unless it is in the context of a company which is already using it. More people seem to have heard of PHP when they think of programming, in the same way that Visual Basic was in the 90s.
  - 300bps 13y ago
    You realize ASP.NET MVC is substantially different than ASP.NET, right? From a coding perspective it is completely different and worlds better.
    - jiggy2011 13y ago
      It's not so much a question of better or worse, it's more about mindshare. Especially with beginner developers. In the web world the onus is on MS to justify why they have advantages over Open source solutions rather than the other way around (as it was with desktop software).
      - 300bps 13y ago
        I agree with your point. But I was just asking if you knew there was a difference between ASP.NET MVC and ASP.NET. I was curious because I said ASP.NET MVC and you responded with a criticism of ASP.NET. I find there are a lot of developers that moved away from technologies like ASP.NET (rightfully) and they believe that Microsoft's offering hasn't changed since then.
        jiggy2011 13y ago
        It was really a grab bag term since the same point still stands. I am aware that there are other technologies, the last I used with .Net was monorail which seemed to be a reaction to rails before there was an official MS version.
Zigurd 13y ago
What you say is quite true, but some of the consequences are regrettable. As mobile devices have shown, some user interfaces really should be presented as client software rather than as Web pages. Many apps work better on mobile devices because they have been implemented using a sync model rather than CRUD-over-the-wire. Perhaps they will do so as part of this crusade for developers, but I don't think Microsoft has figured out how to capitalize on the renaissance in client software.

pjmlp 13y ago

Surely you mean the late 90's, as I still remember distributing MS-DOS stuff via BBS around 1994.

opminion 13y ago

There is a huge cultural divide between what you seem to think and the .Net world. (I agree with you, but know plenty in the other camp and it took me a while to understand them). Someonebody should document that gap, if it hasn't been done, in the same vein as The Cathedral and the Bazaar.

henrikschroder 13y ago
I know there are a lot of developers doing a lot of work for a lot of companies on the MS stack. My point is that there's no influx of young aspiring programmers entering that world anymore. The ones that are there now got there by picking up VB or VC++ as kids, but noone is picking those up today, and MS has absolutely no idea on how to attract new developers, none of their offerings are interesting to someone new to the field.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  So you are claiming that the average age of a Microsoft developer (one relying on the Microsoft ecosystem) is edging up rapidly? I would love to see some hard evidence about that, though its definitely plausible. At least on hackernews, the number of Microsoft developers seems to be quite small (a poll would be interesting though). Disclaimer: working for Microsoft, speaking for self.
  - k-mcgrady 13y ago
    I think on HN that's probably true but a lot of people here seem to forget that most programmers get jobs at a bank/insurance company etc. and spend all day coding in C#/VB or Java. I don't think being a MS developer is 'fashionable' but among young programmers who just want to do what they're told and bring home a pay check I'm sure it's still very common.
    - rbanffy 13y ago
      > young programmers who just want to do what they're told and bring home a pay check It breaks my heart to see young people with such low aspirations. Young people are here to change the world, not to be mutilated into conformity.
      - rwhite 13y ago
        I don't get this holier than thou attitude. You mean you can't do innovative things in C# that you can do in Ruby? How will LISP help an investment bank? How do the millions of CRUD apps in startups written in Ruby, PHP or Python change the world? What about F# being made a first class member of .NET? An enterprise app in Ruby will be as boring as the one in C#. Its to do with a risk averse attitude instead of adopting the framework of the week. A robotics program written in C# or F# can change the world. It breaks my heart to see an empty superiority complex at work here. It's akin to carpenters feeling great about their choice of tools and insulting others choices rather than showing off their allegedly wonderful creations they built with the tools. For example, take StackOverflow, written in .NET and scaling much better than other web apps by using the right tools rather than getting caught up in partisan arguments.

300bps 13y ago

Microsoft development tools are substantially used for web development now. I'm not sure why you're aiming your criticism at Windows executables. ASP.NET MVC is a great web framework.

jiggy2011 13y ago
ASP.NET is no longer the go to choice for people wanting to learn about web development unless it is in the context of a company which is already using it. More people seem to have heard of PHP when they think of programming, in the same way that Visual Basic was in the 90s.
- 300bps 13y ago
  You realize ASP.NET MVC is substantially different than ASP.NET, right? From a coding perspective it is completely different and worlds better.
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    It's not so much a question of better or worse, it's more about mindshare. Especially with beginner developers. In the web world the onus is on MS to justify why they have advantages over Open source solutions rather than the other way around (as it was with desktop software).
    - 300bps 13y ago
      I agree with your point. But I was just asking if you knew there was a difference between ASP.NET MVC and ASP.NET. I was curious because I said ASP.NET MVC and you responded with a criticism of ASP.NET. I find there are a lot of developers that moved away from technologies like ASP.NET (rightfully) and they believe that Microsoft's offering hasn't changed since then.
      - jiggy2011 13y ago
        It was really a grab bag term since the same point still stands. I am aware that there are other technologies, the last I used with .Net was monorail which seemed to be a reaction to rails before there was an official MS version.

Zigurd 13y ago

What you say is quite true, but some of the consequences are regrettable. As mobile devices have shown, some user interfaces really should be presented as client software rather than as Web pages. Many apps work better on mobile devices because they have been implemented using a sync model rather than CRUD-over-the-wire. Perhaps they will do so as part of this crusade for developers, but I don't think Microsoft has figured out how to capitalize on the renaissance in client software.