5 ms·

The Harlem Miracle

52 points by robg 18y ago

adamc 18y ago
Very interesting, but I would be interested in a link from a more objective (less political) source.
- robg 18y ago
  http://www.scribd.com/doc/15084297/Are-HighQuality-Schools-Enough-to-Close-the-Achievement-Gap-Evidence-from-a-Bold-Social-Experiment-in-Harlem http://www.scribd.com/doc/15084297/Are-HighQuality-Schools-E... More here: http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/papers_fryer http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/papers_fryer
- tokenadult 18y ago
  I've previously said http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=555734 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=555734 that I admire Hacker News participants who can grapple with factual statements, regardless of who made them. It doesn't really interest me who said something, if what was said might be true and is worth considering. As robg, the original submitter of this thread points out, the submitted article cites the research work of a researcher whose political opinions may be very different from the columnist who wrote the submitted article.
  - adamc 18y ago
    Well, the problem is that you can't take David Brooks' statements of "fact" at face value, as he's been known to provide rather one-sided arguments. I could undoubtedly read the original papers, but my interest isn't that high and I don't necessarily have the right background to appreciate them. What I need is a precis produced by a knowledgeable, relatively unbiased party. That's not an uncommon situation. The idea that we should all evaluate statements "regardless of who made them" is naive.
    - tokenadult 18y ago
      my interest isn't that high That's too bad. I look things up when I am curious about things, which is often.
bendotc 18y ago
While I'm in no way an expert on this subject, there was a really interesting piece about this on This American Life, which you can listen to for free: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=364 http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=3... . It's Act One, which is most of that week's show. I want to ramble about how interesting this is, but it would be best if you just go listen to this. Obviously, it's still early on and while it looks like they've captured lighting in a bottle, extraordinary results demand extraordinary skepticism. However, especially for people with extremely limited resources trying to do big things (e.g. entrepreneurs), I think it's an interesting piece on thinking big. Anyway, we should all hope this turns out well, and we can look forward to a more educated next generation in the US.
loumf 18y ago
When I click a link and see David Brooks's face, I have the same exact feeling as when I fall for a rick roll.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- Alex3917 18y ago
  I've actually read the book the article is based on. This school is essentially a giant test prep factory. All the kids do for 10+ hours a day is learn how to guess correctly on multiple choice tests. Then the entire measure of school performance is how well the kids have done on these tests. The whole program is designed to separate black kids from their parents and communities; the NYT admits as much actually. In Paul Tough's original NYT Magazine article, which the book is based on, the central question posed is: "Can the culture of child-rearing be changed in poor neighborhoods, and if so, is that a project that government or community organizations have the ability, or the right, to take on?" (Changing the culture is defined as extending the school day to keep kids away from their parents, and also changing the qualitative school experience. The idea being that poor black kids are qualitatively different than poor white kids, and they need a qualitatively different school system based on rote memorization and frequent testing.)
  - chancho 18y ago
    "Promise Academy students who are performing below grade level spent twice as much time in school as other students in New York City. Students who are performing at grade level spend 50 percent more time in school." Yeah I don't really see whats magical about this program, its just really intensive. If you took all the underachievers from other schools and tutored them for 6 hours a day then those school's scores would rise too. It's sort of like the "epiphany" of clear-build-hold in Iraq. No shit - the secret to progress is focusing on fundamentals and working your ass off? But then again, maybe common sense in bureaucracy is magical.
  - ellyagg 18y ago
    You sound critical. Is black culture in America a success? The basic approach to reverse a bad culture is to take its saplings and replant them. Academics don't like this for one reason or another, maybe it seems too easy, but hey, crazy thing, reacculturation works.
anamax 18y ago
The unasked question is how the black/white achievement gap came about in the first case. It actually started fairly recently, say the late 50s/early 60s. (I'm not saying that black schools had equal resources. I'm saying that black schools did very well with the resources that they had.)
- kingkongrevenge 18y ago
  I don't think there was any standardized testing before the 60s.
  - gabrielroth 18y ago
    College Board testing began in 1901, and the first SAT was administered in 1926. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#1901_test http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#1901_test
    - Tichy 18y ago
      And in 1901 black kids were going to "normal" schools and they achieved the same results as white kids?
      - gabrielroth 18y ago
        Did I say anything about black or white kids?
        Tichy 18y ago
        Not you, but a post further up the tree made the claim that differences in performance between white and black kids only started appearing in the sixties.
      - anamax 18y ago
        Nope. Many black kids were going to black schools, which did not have equal resources. (Not all schools were segregated.) However, I was writing about results. For economic reasons, black kids couldn't afford to stay in school as long, but while they were there, they did pretty well. This shouldn't be surprising. The players and teams in Negro Baseball League was every bit as good as those in "the majors" even though they played on very different fields.
randallsquared 18y ago
In math, Promise Academy eliminated the achievement gap between its black students and the city average for white students. Let me repeat that. It eliminated the black-white achievement gap. It's only repeating if those were the same statements. They aren't.
tjic 18y ago
> The fight against poverty produces great programs but disappointing results... you meet incredible people doing wonderful things. Then you look at the results...these inspiring places are only producing incremental gains. That's because a large percent of people (and a HUGE percent of folks who are drawn into the non-profit world) care more about how much they care, and how hard they work, than they do about what they accomplish. In that world, measuring and comparing two programs against each other are both unacceptable things to do. There's a reason that "New Math" and "Whole Language Reading" have persisted in the schools for decades, despite their demonstrable failure. There's a reason that the DARE program is still running decades later, despite the fact that it has no results. There's a reason that all politicians love Head Start, even though all effects dissipate a few years after the program graduates a child. There's no profit motive in this world, and there's no mindset of measurement and continuous improvement. Go read some of Phil Greenspun's posts on how frustrating it is to try to work with non-profits. They don't want results; they want to build empires, and feel like they are doing something.
- Alex3917 18y ago
  "There's a reason that "New Math" and "Whole Language Reading" have persisted in the schools for decades, despite their demonstrable failure." New Math, at least if you are talking about the version espoused by the 1989 NCTM, is currently considered the best practice. And Alfie Kohn debunks the idea that whole language is a failure in his book "The Schools Our Children Deserve."
  - tjic 18y ago
    Amazon describes the books as "an attack on the back-to-basics movement..." Publishers Weekly calls him an advocate. The data showing that Whole Language and New Math are widespread and repeated. I'll take that over one partisan guy (who is a teacher, and dislikes anyone else telling him to use PROVEN methods that he doesn't enjoy as much) who argues in his screed based on anecdotes.
    - Alex3917 18y ago
tphyahoo 18y ago
I am relieved to see that David Brooks has finally gotten off the pro-iraq war bandwagon and is now boosting school programs that teach harlem schoolkids... "how to look at the person who is talking, how to shake hands." Sigh. The program actually sounds pretty cool, but I really dislike something about the tone of the article. But yeah, if I was a broke-ass welfare mom in harlem I'd probably try to get my kid sent to this school. It would be a bit like winning the lottery though... hey... why is that? Neoconservative answer to social injustic: We have this special school that proves we can solve these deep social programs, we just have to get off our butts and do it! Yuppy jobs for all, even black people! Socialibertarian answer to social injustice: Uh. Are you sure? Why does it keep only working for a tiny minority of the fucked population? Why are things not necessarily getting better? Don't people ultimately have to solve their own problems? And isn't this what you're proposing more of an illusion of that? If you rely on a team of academics from harvard to boost your solution, your broke ass welfare moms are not... solving... their own problems!
- randallsquared 18y ago
  welfare moms are not... solving... their own problems! Possibly you and they differ on what their problems are.
  - tphyahoo 18y ago
    you are almost certainly right about that. See Alex3917's comments.

The Harlem Miracle

52 points by robg 18y ago

adamc 18y ago

Very interesting, but I would be interested in a link from a more objective (less political) source.

robg 18y ago
http://www.scribd.com/doc/15084297/Are-HighQuality-Schools-Enough-to-Close-the-Achievement-Gap-Evidence-from-a-Bold-Social-Experiment-in-Harlem http://www.scribd.com/doc/15084297/Are-HighQuality-Schools-E... More here: http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/papers_fryer http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/papers_fryer
tokenadult 18y ago
I've previously said http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=555734 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=555734 that I admire Hacker News participants who can grapple with factual statements, regardless of who made them. It doesn't really interest me who said something, if what was said might be true and is worth considering. As robg, the original submitter of this thread points out, the submitted article cites the research work of a researcher whose political opinions may be very different from the columnist who wrote the submitted article.
- adamc 18y ago
  Well, the problem is that you can't take David Brooks' statements of "fact" at face value, as he's been known to provide rather one-sided arguments. I could undoubtedly read the original papers, but my interest isn't that high and I don't necessarily have the right background to appreciate them. What I need is a precis produced by a knowledgeable, relatively unbiased party. That's not an uncommon situation. The idea that we should all evaluate statements "regardless of who made them" is naive.
  - tokenadult 18y ago
    my interest isn't that high That's too bad. I look things up when I am curious about things, which is often.

bendotc 18y ago

While I'm in no way an expert on this subject, there was a really interesting piece about this on This American Life, which you can listen to for free: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=364 http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=3... . It's Act One, which is most of that week's show. I want to ramble about how interesting this is, but it would be best if you just go listen to this. Obviously, it's still early on and while it looks like they've captured lighting in a bottle, extraordinary results demand extraordinary skepticism. However, especially for people with extremely limited resources trying to do big things (e.g. entrepreneurs), I think it's an interesting piece on thinking big. Anyway, we should all hope this turns out well, and we can look forward to a more educated next generation in the US.

loumf 18y ago

When I click a link and see David Brooks's face, I have the same exact feeling as when I fall for a rick roll.

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
Alex3917 18y ago
I've actually read the book the article is based on. This school is essentially a giant test prep factory. All the kids do for 10+ hours a day is learn how to guess correctly on multiple choice tests. Then the entire measure of school performance is how well the kids have done on these tests. The whole program is designed to separate black kids from their parents and communities; the NYT admits as much actually. In Paul Tough's original NYT Magazine article, which the book is based on, the central question posed is: "Can the culture of child-rearing be changed in poor neighborhoods, and if so, is that a project that government or community organizations have the ability, or the right, to take on?" (Changing the culture is defined as extending the school day to keep kids away from their parents, and also changing the qualitative school experience. The idea being that poor black kids are qualitatively different than poor white kids, and they need a qualitatively different school system based on rote memorization and frequent testing.)
- chancho 18y ago
  "Promise Academy students who are performing below grade level spent twice as much time in school as other students in New York City. Students who are performing at grade level spend 50 percent more time in school." Yeah I don't really see whats magical about this program, its just really intensive. If you took all the underachievers from other schools and tutored them for 6 hours a day then those school's scores would rise too. It's sort of like the "epiphany" of clear-build-hold in Iraq. No shit - the secret to progress is focusing on fundamentals and working your ass off? But then again, maybe common sense in bureaucracy is magical.
- ellyagg 18y ago
  You sound critical. Is black culture in America a success? The basic approach to reverse a bad culture is to take its saplings and replant them. Academics don't like this for one reason or another, maybe it seems too easy, but hey, crazy thing, reacculturation works.

anamax 18y ago

The unasked question is how the black/white achievement gap came about in the first case. It actually started fairly recently, say the late 50s/early 60s. (I'm not saying that black schools had equal resources. I'm saying that black schools did very well with the resources that they had.)

kingkongrevenge 18y ago
I don't think there was any standardized testing before the 60s.
- gabrielroth 18y ago
  College Board testing began in 1901, and the first SAT was administered in 1926. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#1901_test http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#1901_test
  - Tichy 18y ago
    And in 1901 black kids were going to "normal" schools and they achieved the same results as white kids?
    - gabrielroth 18y ago
      Did I say anything about black or white kids?
      - Tichy 18y ago
        Not you, but a post further up the tree made the claim that differences in performance between white and black kids only started appearing in the sixties.
    - anamax 18y ago
      Nope. Many black kids were going to black schools, which did not have equal resources. (Not all schools were segregated.) However, I was writing about results. For economic reasons, black kids couldn't afford to stay in school as long, but while they were there, they did pretty well. This shouldn't be surprising. The players and teams in Negro Baseball League was every bit as good as those in "the majors" even though they played on very different fields.

randallsquared 18y ago

In math, Promise Academy eliminated the achievement gap between its black students and the city average for white students. Let me repeat that. It eliminated the black-white achievement gap. It's only repeating if those were the same statements. They aren't.

tjic 18y ago

> The fight against poverty produces great programs but disappointing results... you meet incredible people doing wonderful things. Then you look at the results...these inspiring places are only producing incremental gains. That's because a large percent of people (and a HUGE percent of folks who are drawn into the non-profit world) care more about how much they care, and how hard they work, than they do about what they accomplish. In that world, measuring and comparing two programs against each other are both unacceptable things to do. There's a reason that "New Math" and "Whole Language Reading" have persisted in the schools for decades, despite their demonstrable failure. There's a reason that the DARE program is still running decades later, despite the fact that it has no results. There's a reason that all politicians love Head Start, even though all effects dissipate a few years after the program graduates a child. There's no profit motive in this world, and there's no mindset of measurement and continuous improvement. Go read some of Phil Greenspun's posts on how frustrating it is to try to work with non-profits. They don't want results; they want to build empires, and feel like they are doing something.

Alex3917 18y ago
"There's a reason that "New Math" and "Whole Language Reading" have persisted in the schools for decades, despite their demonstrable failure." New Math, at least if you are talking about the version espoused by the 1989 NCTM, is currently considered the best practice. And Alfie Kohn debunks the idea that whole language is a failure in his book "The Schools Our Children Deserve."
- tjic 18y ago
  Amazon describes the books as "an attack on the back-to-basics movement..." Publishers Weekly calls him an advocate. The data showing that Whole Language and New Math are widespread and repeated. I'll take that over one partisan guy (who is a teacher, and dislikes anyone else telling him to use PROVEN methods that he doesn't enjoy as much) who argues in his screed based on anecdotes.
  - Alex3917 18y ago

tphyahoo 18y ago

I am relieved to see that David Brooks has finally gotten off the pro-iraq war bandwagon and is now boosting school programs that teach harlem schoolkids... "how to look at the person who is talking, how to shake hands." Sigh. The program actually sounds pretty cool, but I really dislike something about the tone of the article. But yeah, if I was a broke-ass welfare mom in harlem I'd probably try to get my kid sent to this school. It would be a bit like winning the lottery though... hey... why is that? Neoconservative answer to social injustic: We have this special school that proves we can solve these deep social programs, we just have to get off our butts and do it! Yuppy jobs for all, even black people! Socialibertarian answer to social injustice: Uh. Are you sure? Why does it keep only working for a tiny minority of the fucked population? Why are things not necessarily getting better? Don't people ultimately have to solve their own problems? And isn't this what you're proposing more of an illusion of that? If you rely on a team of academics from harvard to boost your solution, your broke ass welfare moms are not... solving... their own problems!

randallsquared 18y ago
welfare moms are not... solving... their own problems! Possibly you and they differ on what their problems are.
- tphyahoo 18y ago
  you are almost certainly right about that. See Alex3917's comments.