9 ms·

Stop using US services?! That's where I started but as of today, I'd go even further: * Americans no longer welcome in Europe; you think you can spy on us, tor

• chris_mahan 13y ago
  I am a US citizen, and I approve this message.
  • logical42 13y ago
    I am a US veteran, and I also approve of this message.
• glasz 13y ago
  i promise you one thing: eu soil isn't really better. they exchange (or at least want to and i don't see those fascists not doing it) air passenger data with foreign countries without your or my consent.
• krek 13y ago
  How can we take full responsibility for the Evo Morales incident? Do Europeans bear no responsibility for allowing their governments to be US lapdogs? As a US citizen I have to bear the responsibility both for my country and your inability to elect a government with a backbone?
• malandrew 13y ago
  One approach that may work that is less disruptive is to require a legally mandated warning on all communications that pass through US and UK servers, like "This message passed through US and UK servers via company XXX here in the EU. It may be subject to collection by the NSA and CIA. Contact this company to request routing through EU only servers." Something like this is not unreasonable. After all we are already putting warning labels on things that are a threat to safety and health. What is happening is a threat to personal freedom and political sovereignty.
  • personlurking 13y ago
    The only issue with that is being able to prove said item didn't go through NSA/CIA, or rather, that said server (no matter where it is) isn't somehow directing traffic in some form to the NSA/CIA. This is basically the issue I see for Americans, too. We can petition for abuses to be stopped but we can't prove our possible success. PRISM may be out of the bag but I'd guess most developed countries digitally spy on their citizens in some form.
    • malandrew 13y ago
      Better yet, put it on every single piece of communication that isn't encrypted end-to-end. It would get people to learn to encrypt things just to eliminate that warning label.
• aristidb 13y ago
  I'm conflicted about whether to upvote or downvote your comment. Calling Americans "fascists" just goes too far, but you have a point. (I'm German.)
  • HSO 13y ago
    You are right, I was/am very angry. I should clarify that I'm referring to the US government and, more specifically, to their "justice" and security apparatus.
    • Vivtek 13y ago
      But you said "citizens".
      • HSO 13y ago
        I meant the USG when I said "fascists". It would be obviously stupid to call every American citizen a fascist but the USG fits the term, I have to say, quite well. To think that I would have donated to the Obama campaign in 2008 had I had money back then, or that Obama received the Nobel peace prize!!! In a better world, the committee would demand the prize back and give it to Snowden, Drake, Manning et al. -- that would be one powerful statement!
        • Vivtek 13y ago
          Imagine how I feel - I voted for him. The Peace Prize was ludicrous, since the only thing he remotely did to deserve it was not to be named George Bush. I would dearly love for it to be recalled. In terms of fascism, by the way, there was a list of diagnostic points for fascism that circulated a few years ago - the US meets them all, albeit in embryonic form. We're definitely in a stage of protofascism, if you will. I love seeing this call to avoid US services. Americans don't really start noticing anything until business is threatened or the cable TV goes out; if this call to arms actually has any measurable effect it will be a very positive move indeed.
    • deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
• Vivtek 13y ago
  I'm an American citizen and I'd like to continue to live with my European wife, thanks. Are you going to kick out Austria, too? They seemed awfully lickspittle today. I don't think it's the Brits that are your problem.
  • manmal 13y ago
    As an Austrian I can assure you that people here would not really bother :) Personally I would, mainly for reasons like easier Cross-borders-Sales and employment.
    • Vivtek 13y ago
      Well, it's stupid anyway. I know there are problems with the Union and I know there are design flaws with the monetary union, but jeez - the Union itself is the smartest thing ever done in Europe and that is a high bar indeed. Talking about kicking countries out is just a step back towards the days of "let's just shoot everybody".
• kimlelly 13y ago
  I get your outrage, but I think this: It's not about the _People_ of USA or Europe. So let's not become hostile against each other. (It's almost _never_ about the _people_ between nations. It's _governments_ that fuck up things for the people.) It's about a rotten system, which unfortunately is the US government today. (It's not even about Obama, this is way above people like him.)
  • Vivtek 13y ago
    Now that is a reasonable comment.
  • h0w412d 13y ago
    Yep. If the government represented the will of its people, we'd have sensible gun control and readily available contraception. The government hasn't represented us for a long time.
  • return0 13y ago
    Not trolling, but the truth is that americans largely agree with their government. http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/06/nsa-spying-poll-pew/66093/ http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/06/nsa-spying-p... I don't know how much of that is attributed to years of fearmongering, but america is a democratic country.
    • kimlelly 13y ago
      > but america is a democratic country. Yes and no. Democracy only works when there is real transparency. And that's the problem with US media: They're in the pockets of Big Money. Result: Brainwashing wins over Democracy.
      • claudius 13y ago
        That is still the responsibility of the American people (and nobody else). If you want to be welcome abroad, behave appropriately.
• tzs 13y ago
  Do you want to kick Germany out, too? Its several intelligence services have a history of spying on their own citizens and also on other European countries. How about Italy? Large domestic spying program, manipulation of the press, forged documents that helped convince the US to invade Iraq, spying on other EU countries.
• personlurking 13y ago
  To go even further, there could be communities of people who do things for themselves and with themselves. I'm not talking Amish here but something along the lines of avoiding services that collect data (which basically means ones that are non-digital), as crazy as it sounds. Short of something drastic, I don't see anyone winning this war against being spied upon, especially since we're just going to become more and more digitally-inclined. The spying becomes so much harder if the info that'd have to be passed along was non-digital, though I suppose strong encryption also theoretically solves the same problem (that is, if the gov't isn't using quantum decryption). Think: Meetup.com, something might be planned online but it takes place in the physical world. Basically, it'd mean replicating things like this where there's an increase in human-to-human contact. I'm just throwing out an idea, but there's got to be ways to combat the spying or at least make it all based only on metadata rather than the actual data. I don't believe the spying only covers metadata anyways.
  • Torgo 13y ago
    It is possible in Arizona to create "charter towns" that can largely override state law with their established charter. As a thought experiment I have toyed around with the idea of a town with a charter based on radical transparency in government and an assumption of a right to privacy.
• embolism 13y ago
  Why not just declare war? After all, the US and Britain are responsible for all that is bad in the world, and all of Europe other than the UK are innocent. There is no internal spying or injustice, racism, or political or economic corruption in any of these states, and their economic policies only foster creativity and happiness. Governments in the EU are free of corporate influence, and vice versa. The world would truly be able to step into the 21st Century if only we acknowledged that it's the US that is holding it back.
• ugk 13y ago
  Thank goodness the US is the only country that spies!
• kryten 13y ago
  Let's kick the Brits out of the EU (they don't seem to be too happy in there anyway); they are basically just a foothold for the American fascists in the EU and do their bidding Brit here (well half German so you will get the irony of this comment). You're confusing the British people with the government. We the people are not represented by our government, media or press. Thank you. Guten tag.
  • sprash 13y ago
    I worked for 12 month in the UK and I met a lot of people that absolutely hated everything about Europe, the EU or the Euro. And this was before the crisis. I think it depends a lot on the age and the amount of consumption of Murdoch media per day.
    • kryten 13y ago
      Fair point. There is a shit ton of moronic dross in the UK. I've actually been told I was "gay" (immature eh?) for not reading a Murdoch rag before so your point hits home pretty hard. Perhaps I should just move out of the country :)
  • primitur 13y ago
    You are not excused from taking responsibility for your government, which is formed on the basis of the support of its people. You are responsible for your British government, citizen.
    • kryten 13y ago
      I certainly am excused when we don't have proportional voting, coalitions are used to keep the major parties in power and I don't vote anyway because I do not wish to be responsible for what the government do which is never what I have voted for. No UK party had ever kept to their manifesto - they all serve the same masters: corporations and banks.
• freetibet 13y ago
  Feel free to put your money where you mouth is, but of course you won't because you will not convince your government to commit suicide, self preservation is a hell of a drug.
• espeed 13y ago
  Snowden stated that the only thing that stops the NSA from doing something is policy, not legality. This call by the German minister is exactly the type of thing that should galvanize the US Internet giants to put the full weight of their lobby (http://internetassociation.org/ http://internetassociation.org/) behind policy reform (if they haven't already). As Lessig has been eloquently pointing out for years (http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_the_republic_we_must_reclaim.html http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_t...), the elected serve two masters -- the Funders (SuperPACs/Lobbyists) and the People. You need the votes of the People to get elected, but once you're in office the Lobbyists' influence overshadows the People's and members are encouraged to "lean to the green." The NRA lobby flexed its muscle and secured the 2nd for the time being. It's time for the Internet lobby to flex its muscle to secure the 4th. The People have a role too -- when the People are aligned behind a great lobbying power, the force of weight is too powerful to ignore. A SOPA-like blackout and petition would send a strong signal.
  • deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
• velodrome 13y ago
  Europe exports more to the US then the Europe imports from the US. Basically there is a trade imbalance of roughly $100 billion dollars (the US makes up 17.3% of EU exports). You think the EU is a mess now? Take out the $100 billion dollars from the EU economy...then see what happens.
• diminoten 13y ago
  Europe would not and could not exist without the US (and vice versa). And we are pro surveilling the whole world. And there's nothing you can do about it, frankly. Isolationist policy won't work, period.
• pekk 13y ago
  So now we have heard about the French PRISM. Will you also kick out the French? You are a bigot.