16 ms·

Bolivia to file UN complaint over airspace blockade

537 points by Libertatea 13y ago

steeve 13y ago
This is really, _really_ serious. Even more so that Snowden wasn't even on board, so effectively France, Spain, Portugal and Italy refused airspace to a _presidential jet_ over _claims_ by the US govt (which by the way turned out to be false). This is crazy.
- ghshephard 13y ago
  I don't know how serious it is - Bolivia is ranked #93 in the world in terms of GDP, and isn't particularly strategic. They can complain, but, at the end of the day, this won't amount to much.
  - steeve 13y ago
    Indeed, but all the South American countries are outraged by this, so it's getting bigger.
  - yaix 13y ago
    Apart from damaging even more the already quite low international reputation of the US. And one day some country may use this as a precedent for a more damaging action. There are international rules for a reason, and it took us centuries to get them in place and universally accepted.
    - prollyignored5 13y ago
      > Apart from damaging even more the already quite low international reputation of the US. You have never been pig farming, have you ? All that pigs care is eating shit. Swimming in shit. Drinking shit. You can, say ... "Hey piggy, clean up ! Be decent !" But it will throw shit on your face and lick it with glee. The interesting thing is, even if you hit your favorite doubly elected representative with feces, he will get a mexican to clean it and move on, as usual. > international reputation I am such a cunt, I can sit here and comment. I want to reduce reality to a spectacle.
    - paganel 13y ago
      > And one day some country may use this as a precedent for a more damaging action Slightly related, but the 1993 Rwanda civil war was started because of a (let's say) similar incident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Habyarimana_and_Ntaryamira http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Habyarimana_an... > The airplane carrying Rwandan president Juvénal Habyarimana and Burundian president Cyprien Ntaryamira was shot down as it prepared to land in Kigali, Rwanda. The assassination set in motion some of the bloodiest events of the late 20th century, the Rwandan Genocide and the First Congo War.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    No idea why you are voted down here. From a US POV Bolivia is nothing. Replies about US reputation are irrelevant. We clearly see that US reputation is irrelevant, since it has the financial and military power force its will.
    - sheri 13y ago
      Because Bolivia is 'nothing' from a US POV, doesn't make it any less wrong. Apart from right and wrong, there are several examples where countries which were 'nothing', are creating several problems for the US. Most of the middle-east, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc are countries which at some point were 'nothing'. It is because of this heavy-handed approach that he was being downvoted.
    - dllthomas 13y ago
      Reputation is extremely important for long term security. We're finding this out, and I think it'll only get worse if we don't start treating others with respect.
    - outworlder 13y ago
      This is a real slippery slope. Just how "big" does a country have to be so that its rights will be respected?
    - ghshephard 13y ago
      I think people are taking my assessment of how "serious" this is to the United States as a indication of my belief as to how just/unjust or reasonable their behavior is. Over twenty or so years, I learned that when it suits their purpose/needs, the US is willing to step on much more important and strategically important countries than Bolivia. And, in this situation, apparently all they were asking for was countries (presumably friendly to the United States) to request a passenger/manifest inspection in return for over-flight privileges. I wonder how many people here are aware that the United States requires this of every single flight from Canada that passes over the united states, in particular, " requires airline carriers to hand over the names, birth dates and gender of all passengers travelling through American air space." regardless of whether they are landing in the US. http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/print.main?id=4988025 http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/pr...
  - anu_gupta 13y ago
    That's the attitude that's made your country so despised by so many.
    - ghshephard 13y ago
      I'm not an American. Canadian. And we have a very long history with the United States that has taught us that when it comes to conflicts, the United States always ends up winning, regardless of perceived objective facts of the situation. Google "Softwood Lumber United States Canada" - Basically wiped out (economically) the province I was in (or at least if felt like that in Lumby). Shut down entire towns. Despite trade agreements, and ruling after ruling going against them, The United States was able to arbitrarily decide that the cost of Lumber in Canada was too low, and set tariffs high enough to protect their own industry. This was front page news for 10+ years in BC. I have a gut feeling for what going against the (much larger) United States is like when you are smaller, even if you are a close trading partner and neighbor.
  - InclinedPlane 13y ago
    This is just "might makes right". It's not an ideology that anyone who wants to live in a country or a world that values individual liberty should desire. Consider how few hops it is between "it's ok to violate a country's sovereignty if it is small and powerless" and "it's ok to violate someone's 'rights' so long as they are powerless, unimportant, or poor".
    - rayiner 13y ago
      Not really. There is a principled distinction between the two: people in other countries are not part of the same social pact and thus don't have rights. Its tribalism, sure, but tribalism has historically been pretty effective at maintaining different standards internally versus externally.
      - westicle 13y ago
        Yeah, well maybe the people in MY state are OK, but those bastards one state over are fair game. And don't get me started about the neighbours across the road. Their tribe has no rights in my book.
        rayiner 13y ago
        The people one state over are part of the same compact (the Constitution) with you. A compact which, by the way, bars you from discriminating against them in commerce, which actually causes a lot of problems in practice. E.g. states that want to enact social welfare programs for their own people have a difficult time doing so at the state level, because of free rider effects (it is unconstitutional to require a citizen of another state to live in your state for say a year before applying for welfare benefits). Trying to get around the free rider effect creates increased demand for solutions at the federal level, which undermines federalism and state sovereignty. At the level of sovereign nations, similar pushes for extending rights across national boundaries creates pressure for trans-national governments. It's no accident that the tearing down of economic barriers between European states went hand-in-hand with the creation of trans-EU legislative and executive bodies. There is a lot of value to trans-national barriers that isn't immediately obvious, especially in a democracy.
  - Buzaga 13y ago
    The more the US make use and abuse it's force, the more it will lose it, the more it will try to keep control, the more authoritarian it will become, the more resistance will grow, the more the US will get alone. Keep thinking like that.
    - outworlder 13y ago
      "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." ―Princess Leia to Grand Moff Tarkin.
  - Vivtek 13y ago
    Sometimes you just have to take a little country and smash it against the wall to show the world who's boss - is that the game you're playing? Americans loved international law as long as it was to our advantage; now it's passé to imagine that anybody but Americans or rich people might have rights endowed by their Creator. I guess it's not so self-evident these days.
  - vadman 13y ago
    Not sure why everybody is downvoting you, especially sicne you don't claim to be happy about the facts, just stating them. Bolivia is, well, unimportant, and their complaints to the US will amount to nothing. There are exactly 2 countries in the world that the US cannot mess with. If it was a Russian or a Chinese plane, do you all think it would be denied airspace entry? (And EVEN IF it was denied entry and still decided to go through, do you think anything would happen to it?) What should be downvoted is the state of affairs when a US whistleblower has to be escorted around the world by Putin himself to guarantee his safety.
    - ghshephard 13y ago
      Well, I'm happy to see the downvotes. It suggests that idealism is alive and well on HN. Ironically, I speak from the experience of being the citizen of Canada, in particular, BC that had a number of disagreements with the United States (Air, Water, Lumber Tariffs) over 10 years. Issues that I'm certain 99.99% of the United States has never heard of, were front page news of the Vancouver Sun on-and-off for a decade. There was a sense of anger, helplessness, and eventually resentment (but, to some degree, acceptance) that when engaging in disputes with much larger countries, you need to avoid going up against them head-on, because you will lose every time. At least we got NAFTA out of it, which has worked out well for some percentage of the Canadian population.
    - Dewie 13y ago
      It's not as if Bolivia and the US live in a vacuum. The rest of the world can see what they are doing, and they might not be so impressed by it.
      - vadman 13y ago
        The rest of the world is the other 2 countries that matter (and shit like that doesn't happen to them), a multitude of countries that don't matter (the USA doesn't give a fuck what their impression is) and a handful of "allies" who are in it with the US. It will take really coordinated efforts of multiple governments for the US to even start caring about "impressions" and so on. Highly unlikely to happen.
- yaix 13y ago
  > _claims_ by the US govt Last time the US gov't claimed some stuff that turned out to be a lie, more than 100.000 civilians died as a consequence. And there are still civilians dying every day, because of that claim.
  - WildUtah 13y ago
    Last time the US gov't claimed some stuff that turned out to be a lie, more than 100.000 civilians Last time? If there were a clock that ticked every time high US government officials lied over matters of state, you could use it as a fan.
    - pvnick 13y ago
      >If there were a clock that ticked every time high US government officials lied over matters of state, you could use it as a fan. I just want to say how brilliant I thought this expression was. I can't believe people don't use it more often
      - kryten 13y ago
        Very true! Awesome expression.
      - swamp40 13y ago
        It comes from an old joke about onanism and the devil.
    - seferphier 13y ago
      brilliant. i'm stealing that expression from you.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    I don't think that was the last time...
  - dhimes 13y ago
    I don't think it is a lie so much as total incompetence. Good thing we can trust them to do the right thing with our private data.
- Svip 13y ago
  For the record, Spain and France are denying that they refused the plane entry.[0] [0] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3eba3e4b0e80ab6523aa8 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a...
  - smegel 13y ago
    Lol i wonder if the nsa hacked the radio freq and sent false transmissions
  - patrickaljord 13y ago
    Also for the record, Evo Morales is insane. Here he is saying that eating chicken makes you gay http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT3yCRjEDCI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT3yCRjEDCI
    - pavs 13y ago
      Bush said God told him to invade iraq and other boatload of stupid shit, didn't stop Americans from electing him twice. What does it say about bush and even worse what does it say about americans? The point is, what stupid shit the president said has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.
      - patrickaljord 13y ago
        He's making a claim that various countries claim to be untrue (they say his plane wasn't denied). So reminding people that Morales is no stranger to making false claims is relevant IMO. That being said, those other countries could be the ones lying too for all I know. No need to get rude though.
        andyhmltn 13y ago
        'Two wrongs don't make a right'
        13y ago
- antr 13y ago
  It has been officially confirmed that Spain and France did not refuse airspace. It seems that the announcement (by unknown source) was made to disrupt the flight, and create a halo of sovereign support towards limiting Snowden's freedom of movement.
  - smackfu 13y ago
    My guess is that these unnamed officials in Spain and France are playing games with terminology, to confuse matters. Like they didn't "refuse airspace", they just refused to give the plane a flight plan through the airspace.
    - antr 13y ago
      My guess is that the list of countries restricting airspace was said by an Austrian "official" to the Bolivian passengers, including the Bolivian president once they landed. At no point in time I have seen an article stating the "unnamed officials in Spain and France" have closed the airspace to the Bolivian president. What is official is that named French and Spanish officials have denied such statements. Additionally, the plane has landed in Spain to refuel. No questions asked, no plane searched, no restrictions. This should clear many doubts.
      - smackfu 13y ago
        >Additionally, the plane has landed in Spain to refuel. No questions asked, no plane searched, no restrictions. This should clear many doubts. After the plane was already searched in Austria. Doesn't seem to be much risk of letting them land at that point.
        antr 13y ago
        Like you, I can be a cynic, I can read between the lines, I can speculate. When the news stream is limited, and there is a lot of noise, I don't do any of the above. The real "risk" here is, press and citizens, jumping to false conclusions.
- duiker101 13y ago
  This is the first time I see Italy included in this story where did you get that from?
- reeses 13y ago
  Presidential planes should be relatively free from interference, but they're not sacrosanct. For example, the US Sec'y of State warned Iraq to deny access to airspace to any sovereign countries wishing to aid President Assad. In addition, several congressmen (both houses) have asked for the military destruction of the Syrian presidential plane. Hussein, Gaddafi, Ceaușescu, etc., would have been treated similarly had they made a diplomatic attempt to fly over many countries during the times they were openly perceived as being international criminals. I imagine this would be more than about Snowden. This is one of the first moves to show Morales that he is not in as strong a position now that Chavez is dead.
  - toyg 13y ago
    > This is one of the first moves to show Morales that he is not in as strong a position now that Chavez is dead. If that was the real aim, it's even more misguided: there's nothing better to solidify internal support than a bit of unprovoked foreign aggression. Differently from many other Latin American rulers, Morales' (and before him Chavez's) power is directly linked to oil prices, not to perceived US benevolence.
    - reeses 13y ago
      The US does not have a policy of caring that much about internal support, unfortunately.
      - toyg 13y ago
        And this is why Venezuela will continue to be a sticky point for them. It's not 1970 anymore, you can't think of overthrowing an elected government with the sole support of a bunch of elites, you have to be clever and divide public opinion enough to squeeze in your "preferred choice". Unless, of course, you just bomb it back to the middle ages, but in most cases that's not an option.
vrepsys 13y ago
This is getting really weird: this morning French and Spanish officials have denied refusing to let that plane in. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3eba3e4b0e80ab6523aa8 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a...
- josteink 13y ago
  You mean like everything Snowden has uncovered so far, which has as a theme that whoever is ordered to do something is forbidden from telling anyone about it afterwards? Seems to fit the picture perfectly well IMO.
- reidrac 13y ago
  The Spanish press is reporting that after the plane was delayed (it was expected to land in the Canary Islands) they had to confirm the permission, and it was granted as expected. The Spanish foreign ministry said they never denied landing or requested to inspect the plane (in Spanish soil). Apparently the Spanish ambassador asked Evo Morales to allow the Austrian police to inspect the plane, and he finally did. All this thing is confusing, indeed.
  - sounds 13y ago
    No, Morales landed in the (Spanish-controlled) Canary Islands to refuel after he was denied access to France, et al. The quote from Morales in this article may be part of the source for the confusion, but as you say the Spanish press reports there was some delay, and I imagine Morales was pretty upset already. His quote seems to be lumping Spain in with the others. What's your source for the Spanish press, if I may ask? I realize that I'm not citing any great sources for what happened in Spain, I'm working on it... Here's one that lists France, Portugal, and Italy as nations denying Morales access to their airspace: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/03/us-usa-security-snowden-bolivia-idUSBRE9611AT20130703 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/03/us-usa-security-sn...
    - reidrac 13y ago
nicholassmith 13y ago
Good for Bolivia. This has started becoming a farce now, on hand you've had Obama stating that the U.S. wasn't going to spend political currency wheeling and dealing to get Snowden back, and handwaving over the core issue of overreach. Then on the other you've got the U.S. making veiled threats about repercussions to anyone willing to offer him asylum.
- chunkyslink 13y ago
  As a Brit I've seen every US government since I was old enough to take notice, act like this. They go through the official media outlets saying one thing and then do completely the opposite. I've often wondered how the American people who seem so intelligent on the one hand fall for this each and every time. Or is it rather that on the whole they have all these nice houses in nice safe places (no wars etc) with hundreds of TV channels to watch that in a way no one can be bothered to do anything about the way their leaders make them look internationally.
  - m0nty 13y ago
    > I've often wondered how the American people who seem so intelligent on the one hand fall for this each and every time. I think the same thing is true for Britain as well. We have a largely docile population in the face of grotesque abuses by governments of all political stripe.
    - alan_cx 13y ago
      Mostly Brits can only screw over Brits. The US can screw over countries. Same nasty deal, sure, but the scope of the US is much, much bigger.
      - grey-area 13y ago
        You might want to rethink that conclusion - lots of US traffic to anywhere in Europe is going through the UK on tapped lines and being delivered back to the NSA. The UK has a lot of power to harm US citizens, EU partners, and UK citizens by doing this.
mtgx 13y ago
What's funny is that all of those countries are now denying that they did this to him. Do they really think they can get away with that, and it won't be proven that they did it, or that the public will even believe them? US and its immediate allies are making their situation worse and worse for themselves.
- tonylemesmer 13y ago
  who are they? who is he? what is it? who are they? what is it? who are they? Apologies for all the questions, just not sure what your comment means :)
  - freehunter 13y ago
    Read the article. That's what it's linked for, right up at the top of the page.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - tonylemesmer 13y ago
      Thanks I read the article. The comment contains so many pronouns it is indecipherable.
      - freehunter 13y ago
        If you're speaking English as a second language, I feel for you. Foreign languages are hard with pronouns. If you're a native English speaker, reading the article first leaves no questions as to who is who.
- tcoppi 13y ago
  Or, you know, maybe they actually didn't deny his flight the airspace?
  - 13y ago
ra 13y ago
overreaching incompetent bullying.
- beedogs 13y ago
  or the death-throes of a crumbling empire.
  - freetibet 13y ago
    Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on where you stand, America's power is rapidly growing stronger, because they will soon be a net exporter of oil and a myriad of other reasons. It is more realistic to fix its problems than wish it were going away
    - flyinRyan 13y ago
      And what possible plan of attack is there for fixing its problems? Voting clearly doesn't work. Violent revolution has about a 0.0000000001% chance of success (if I'm extremely generous). If you could get hundreds of thousands of the right people flooding all aspects of US politics you might have a chance, but that probably has worse odds than a revolution. I can't imagine any possible way to fix the US now. All we can hope is that they will keep acting insane until the rest of the world simply unplugs from them. We can't stop their power but they can become the "North Korea" continent that we all shake our heads over but realize there's nothing that can be done that would be worth what it would cost.
    - tomjen3 13y ago
      The US is growing weaker, (and that is not a good thing), I don't see how it will ever export oil, its economy is a disaster, the hole in its public treasury is legendary, etc. Meanwhile China is growing like weeds.
      - freetibet 13y ago
        The problem with the US is that is does not have a credible peer, it could have been China but they are about to pop their real estate bubble and the EU is not as strong as it should be, so who is on par?
scrrr 13y ago
It seems like the USA own Europe. What happened yesterday is very serious.
- yaix 13y ago
  My guess is that the US has enough information about the illegal spying our EU governments do to us, that no elected politician here in Europe would risk to have that leaked.
  - retrogradeorbit 13y ago
    The same is true for the US politicians. They also have all their phone calls recorded and all their emails and messages read. And accessible by millions of private contractors of unknown allegiances. Start reading boiling frogs post and listening to the interviews to understand the true situation.
    - waxjar 13y ago
      > "millions of private contractors" ?
      - shabble 13y ago
        http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/ http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/ Millions is probably overstating it though. FTA: "An estimated 854,000 people, nearly 1.5 times as many people as live in Washington, D.C., hold top-secret security clearances." Which might place a rough estimate of tens to hundreds of thousands (depending on how many would be in the Military, work directly for the Govt, or work on other programmes)
  - parasight 13y ago
    You mean there is not one european politician with the least bit of integrity? You mean they _all_ care more for there career than for the truth? I desperately hope your wrong but I guess you are right.
- 13y ago
noarchy 13y ago
You don't have to ponder this much to see what kind of abuse of power this is. As a brief thought experiment, imagine a country trying to ground Air Force One (the US presidential plane), and then asking to search it. I'm thinking you'd see calls for war, from political pundits in the US.
- Svip 13y ago
  The Spanish were denied to search the plane, for the record. Edit: I inaccurately wrote Austrians.
  - tomp 13y ago
    Reference? The article claims: > Morales refuted speculation that Snowden had stowed away on the plane and allowed authorities to conduct a search.
  - bschwarz 13y ago
    They did search the plane according to the foreign ministry's Twitter https://twitter.com/Minoritenplatz8/status/352321639108714496 https://twitter.com/Minoritenplatz8/status/35232163910871449...
  - halviti 13y ago
    Please at least read the article before you comment. They did indeed search the plane.
  - smegel 13y ago
    You mean they denied they searched the plane, or they tried to search the plane and were denied?
  - Svip 13y ago
    I am not sure that makes sense anymore, considering that Spain is denying they ever denied the plane entry.[0] [0] http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_23590259/snowden-france-denies-blocking-bolivian-plane http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_23590259/snowden...
ed_blackburn 13y ago
Presumably all communication on board is recorded on the blackbox? If so perhaps an unedited copy of the dialogue can be published?
- heidar 13y ago
  You can listen to it here: http://audioboo.fm/boos/1482009-bolivia-air-force-fuerza-aerea-boliviana-fab001-flight-precaution-landing-vienna-austria http://audioboo.fm/boos/1482009-bolivia-air-force-fuerza-aer... Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3d7d8e4b0300b24e64d90 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a...
  - deletes 13y ago
    This conversation between the plane and a (tower) operator, seems more like when the plane is just about to land in Austria.
    - heidar 13y ago
      Here's where I got the link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3d7d8e4b0300b24e64d90 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a... I should have linked this in the first place.
  - jwr 13y ago
    From that recording it seems that it is the pilot who initiated the landing because of problems reading a fuel indicator? There seems to be a lot of confusion around this whole landing.
- yread 13y ago
  they are only recorded in the actual cockpit (this would probably happen in cabin. Also they are overwritten every 2 hours (depending on type)
beedogs 13y ago
As a US citizen (for another couple weeks), I'm really getting tired of America's shit.
- willvarfar 13y ago
  Advice: wait three more weeks before continuing in this vein.
  - andyhmltn 13y ago
    May I ask why?
    - ihsw 13y ago
      The walls have ears.
    - peterjancelis 13y ago
      Was probably just a joke saying to wait until he got rid of his US citizenship. "A couple of weeks" = 2 weeks. "Wait 3 weeks" = the week after the couple of weeks are over.
- ciupicri 13y ago
  Out of curiosity why are you renouncing your citizenship?
  - flyinRyan 13y ago
    Living outside the US as an American is pretty hard. It's one of two countries on earth that expects you to keep filing, and paying taxes even if you have never set foot inside the country (e.g. born in Spain to one American parent), you have to report any bank account you control to the US every year. That includes company accounts you have signing rights over, so forget being a stock trader in a "tax haven" country, etc. It's a lot of trouble and it gets worse every year since we're one of the few groups the politicians can demonize and exploit with no consequence at all. Anyone rich enough to have power isn't affected by these laws, practically speaking.
X4 13y ago
The first victim of war is truth.
- Create 13y ago
  Barack Obama: 'Won't scramble jets for Snowden' there have been some "useful conversations" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23085138 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23085138
  - X4 13y ago
    Look at that Bodylanguage and his eye movements and double-check what he actually means http://s1.hubimg.com/u/1776076_f520.jpg http://s1.hubimg.com/u/1776076_f520.jpg Wow, Thank you for the insightful video!
Shivetya 13y ago
Act of Aggression? More like acts of obsequiousness. Whats the world coming too when even Russia is emasculated before the United States. Its expected, though I would prefer otherwise, that the EU countries bend over, but damn its getting silly now. As I posted in another thread, here is a fine preview of a one world government, you cannot run, you cannot hide. Truth and justice are at the whim of those who run the place.
- w0utert 13y ago
  >> Whats the world coming too when even Russia is emasculated before the United States. Its expected, though I would prefer otherwise, that the EU countries bend over, but damn its getting silly now. I don't think Russia is very eager to get into discussions about the ethics of international espionage and the way intelligence agencies operate. Somehow I also don't think they have much sympathy for whistleblowers exposing said ethics. The last guy who was a little too open about how the FSB and KGB operates was 'mysteriously' poisoned with pollonium.
- copx 13y ago
  Russia invaded Georgia (an US ally) not long ago, pulverizing the equipment of the Georgian military (which largely came from the US) and seizing much of its territory. It was a major victory for Putin, which undermined America's Russia containment strategy (which was to surround Russia with well-armed NATO allies). He basically played chicken with the US, risking a war.. and won. Putin is a horrible guy but afraid of the US or "emasculated" he certainly isn't. Putin simply has no interest in helping Snowden. Remember that Putin openly supported totalitarian surveillance schemes like PRISM: http://reason.com/24-7/2013/06/13/putin-supports-united-states-surveillanc http://reason.com/24-7/2013/06/13/putin-supports-united-stat...
jotaass 13y ago
As an european this disgusts me to no end. It can really hurt your patriotism and sense of pride in your country when you realize it's not actually a country at all, just a subservient state, willing to do anything to avoid drawing the attention of the big fat bully. In the end we're all afraid to fight for anything when life is too hard already, I guess.
- danmaz74 13y ago
  As a fellow european, I absolutely agree. The only way out I see is to become a federal country, but I don't see that happening with all our internal infighting. Divide et impera.
  - sesqu 13y ago
    Some people react to bullying by learning how to bully; some people by learning how not to. It's hard to see either tactic working out.
- eshvk 13y ago
  Why is this surprising? America poured in money during the Marshall plan to build up Europe; NATO is essentially another arm of the American armed forces. It is you, the voting European citizen who is responsible for both closer integration of Europe and for Europe to have its own defense capabilities. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
  - Uchikoma 13y ago
    America poured in money during the Marshall plan to create a market for US companies that needed new markets after they produced a lot of stuff for the army during the war. "The Marshall Plan aid was mostly used for the purchase of goods from the United States. (...) In the latter years, under pressure from the United States Congress and with the outbreak of the Korean War, an increasing amount of the aid was spent on rebuilding the militaries of Western Europe. Of the some $13 billion allotted by mid-1951, $3.4 billion had been spent on imports of raw materials and semi-manufactured products; $3.2 billion on food, feed, and fertilizer; $1.9 billion on machines, vehicles, and equipment; and $1.6 billion on fuel" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan#German_level_of_industry_restrictions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan#German_level_of_i...
retrogradeorbit 13y ago
The curtain falls and we see the true nature of the global hegemony, and how far it reaches.
- ihsw 13y ago
  The TPP and TAFTA will solidify the global hegemony, and no I'm not trying to be sensationalist or paranoid: this is the nature of economic agreements between countries (shattered borders, economic and legislative integration).
danmaz74 13y ago
As a EU citizen, I'm really ashamed of this. Are we the guard dogs of US interest, even when the US so obviously disregards our own interests - and rights - as in this case?
- paganel 13y ago
  > Are we the guard dogs of US interest, That's what happens when you externalize almost all of your defense-related needs. France did try to go its own way around the 1960s, but it turns out building lots of carriers and nuclear-powered submarines is not that easy when you're not in the global top three, economically speaking (and even so, the Soviets went bust because of it). And of course recent attempts at a "common European defense policy" are a farce, as most of the people who know a thing or two about the matter will attest. </rant from another European citizen>
  - danmaz74 13y ago
    They are a farce, but they shouldn't be. A common defense policy would be so much more effective AND efficient. The real problem is that we would need a common foreign policy too...
- dublinclontarf 13y ago
  Don't you mean a citizen of an EU country? Last I heard the EU wasn't a state.
  - netrus 13y ago
    Try to google "world citizen". Language is a tool, not a prison.
  - sveiss 13y ago
    The EU may not be a state, but it can still have citizens. http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/ http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/
  - danmaz74 13y ago
    Last I heard the EU wasn't a state and that's the problem...
ramblerman 13y ago
France's involvement in particular makes my blood boil. To feign complete outrage over being spied upon yet happily tarnish relations with a sovereign nation to catch the whistleblower.
- lazyjones 13y ago
  I'm not surprised, considering how corrupt politicians are everywhere (including the EU) and how useful PRISM must be for threatening/blackmailing them into submission.
  - cLeEOGPw 13y ago
    Maybe US even used PRISM data to blackmail those officials? It's crazy, but after all this I would not throw the possibility away.
    - lazyjones 13y ago
      In the (very) recent light of Austria's decision to search Morales' plane (I'm Austrian; Morales is claiming that he was basically "kidnapped" now according to local newspapers), this is actually a plausible explanation, because the only other would assume so much stupidity and recklessness on behalf of our politicians that I cannot imagine it, even though the foreign ministry is held by the ÖVP (of Ernst Strasser fame: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Strasser#2011_cash_for_influence_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Strasser#2011_cash_for_i...).
- cubicle67 13y ago
  Don't forget the Rainbow Warrior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior
T-zex 13y ago
Unsurprisingly its Austria, their politicians would obey KGB [1][2] and now NSA. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14202371 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14202371 [2] http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2011/07/lithuania-and-austria http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2011/07/lit...
ramblerman 13y ago
I'm not generally a conspiracy theorist, but you have to wonder what we still don't know if this is the extent to which the US is willing to go to get this guy. Not only are they further torpedoing their international image, I would imagine they severely strained their reach with nations like France when it turns out he wasn't on board.
- shubb 13y ago
  I haven't seen anyone elsewhere point out that maybe he is onboard. It may not be the case, but there must have been some convincing information to convince various countries to do this, and our evidence against is the departure site and the president's word. There is an ongoing tension between a block of south American countries (see the Argentinian tweets on github), and the USA. Non-violent aggressive acts like this, or conversely offering asylum, are part of it. The US has strongly resisted any external influence on the rest of the continent, as a doctrine. Now a block is forming locally, they will go to great lengths to resist it. I think an explanation for why the block is upset in turn can be found in the leaked cables.
  - enko 13y ago
    > I haven't seen anyone elsewhere point out that maybe he is onboard. I've seen speculation along those lines, especially since it emerged they didn't allow a proper search. A "walk-through" indeed - I would be willing to bet there's at least 10 places he could have been hiding. It will be absolutely hilarious if he turns out to have been on board all along. Apparently, however, the plane left from a different airport, so I don't know how he could have gotten from one to the other without having to officially enter Russia.
fmax30 13y ago
This just made me realize that how desperate the US government is to capture Snowden , Kinda makes you think he (snowden) has something up his sleeve that the US doesn't want out. Now I am interested.
- anvandare 13y ago
  I'm thinking it's more about sending a message to other (potential) leakers: "This is how powerful we are, this is how far we'll go to hunt you down. Nobody is going to help you, and no one is going to stop us."
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drunkenmasta 13y ago
you would think that with "intelligence" agencies looking into it they would be able to tell whether or not Snowden was in an airport terminal or was getting on a plane. All this "we have no idea where Snowden is" sounds like BS to me. If Snowden was a free man we would be seeing his face doing a video interview.
Fuxy 13y ago
Well at least we know know which countries are US lapdogs France, Spain and Portugal. You could probably add UK to that. Let's see who else shows their colors.
- antr 13y ago
  It has been officially confirmed that Spain and France did not refuse airspace. It seems that the airspace restrictions announcement (by unknown source) was made to disrupt the flight, and create a halo of sovereign support towards limiting Snowden's freedom of movement. As far as I'm concerned, the only US lapdog in Europe is the UK.
  - andyhmltn 13y ago
    You mean like the official statements on how the US aren't listening to its citizen's phone calls? I don't think an 'official statement' holds any weight after what we've seen in the past few weeks.
    - antr 13y ago
      I can too be a cynic, but the fact that the plane has landed in Spain to refuel should support the "official statement"
      - Vivtek 13y ago
        Sure - after being searched in Austria.
      - Andrew_Quentin 13y ago
        after the plane was searched and no Snowden was found.
  - sveme 13y ago
    Wait a second - do you have a trustworthy reference? Are you (or the media) suggesting that the US managed to infiltrate European air traffic control and hoaxed the bolivian plane to land? I would not trust those official announcements, more likely that we'll have to dissect them carefully to see what they are not saying, e.g.: "We did not officially refuse them access to our airspace." (But the airspace was so crowded that due to security reasons no further planes could be allowed).
milhous 13y ago
I'm embarrassed as an American. They love bullying smaller countries but would never dare force down a plane carrying the Chinese or Russian President. That could be construed as an act of war.
- chiph 13y ago
  I really don't understand why we are going out of our way to piss-off everyone else on the planet. Surely Hanlon's Razor can't be at work here.
  - flyinRyan 13y ago
    Maybe Obama really is an extremist muslim trying to destroy America? Things are getting bizarre enough that that no longer seems one of the craziest ideas I've heard.
guictx 13y ago
Yesterday evening, at 9:24 PM GMT, the portuguese public TV station showed a news piece (http://www.rtp.pt/noticias/index.php?article=663664&tm=7&layout=122&visual=61 http://www.rtp.pt/noticias/index.php?article=663664&tm=7&lay...) saying that Edward Snowden had already left Moscow on the Bolivian presidential aircraft. According to the report, the fact Snowden was on the plane was the reason invoked by the portuguese government to deny landing. There's no indication of source for this report, neither a search on the internet on the following hour revealed anything similar. So I'm guessing now that this was probably planted to make sure the portuguese government had something to corroborate their decision. Really shameful...
deleted 13y ago
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Noxchi 13y ago
Why did his plane have to land? What's Austria going to do, shoot it down?
- iaskwhy 13y ago
  My understanding is that there's not enough fuel to cross the ocean so they needed some place to refuel. Given noone would give permission they probably decided it was for the best to land in Austria.
personlurking 13y ago
I wonder what would have happened had the plane just kept flying. No one is going to shoot down a presidential plane.
- rahoulb 13y ago
  All they'd have to say is that the plane was a danger to other planes in the area. If it was ignoring air traffic control orders then that is probably all the justification they need, president or not.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- yread 13y ago
  They had to refuel in Canary islands. Dassault Falcon 900EX only has range 7400km, but Moscow to La Paz is 12500km
  - personlurking 13y ago
    So assuming they ignored being grounded and just refueled in the Canaries, if their flight plan was pre-ok'd, then they wouldn't be endangering others.
- tomjen3 13y ago
  Tell that to the poles.
fakeer 13y ago
Hey Bolivians, in case you are reading this - this should be reason enough to oppose the next western interference in your country whether it's in the name of emancipation, oil or ending a dictatorship. Just wanted to say this as the west is too good in propaganda. And yes, it's a shame in the name of democracies, UN and world peace. I think we are actually past all that. The subtle moves by the USA and its cronies have been replaced by blunt and obvious bullying.
wmeredith 13y ago
Isn't all the international posturing over the last few weeks the sort of stuff that starts wars? WTF happened to America? I love this country, but the government is completely off the rails. They think the law doesn't apply to them. Makes me sick.
- tomjen3 13y ago
  Schoolyard bullies think they can get away with anything, and they can, right until the day one of their victims strike back. And yes, I hate it too. I love the US (even though I am not a citizen) and all the good your country has done for the world, but somehow the last 3 presidents went completely of the rails and went into full-blown paranoia. As a result the US is loosing the respect and hope of the world, for no good reason. Point out a genuine threat and the EU and the rest of NATO will stand with you, spy on Iran, who is your enemy, but understand that the EU is not your enemy. We are your friend and wants only the best for you.
  - Dewie 13y ago
    > I love the US (even though I am not a citizen) I sometimes find nationalism strange, but it's also understandable and may be constructive on some level. People being patriotic for countries that they are not citizens of? Now that's straight up hilarious...
rbadaro 13y ago
According to the Portuguese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Portugal did not deny access to their airspace. They did deny landing and reflueling permission in advance (on the 1st of July) for "technical reasons".
Buzaga 13y ago
New meme: Evo Morales can't participate in street fighter because he can't land on opponent's countries... :( https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1011323_549548581754197_439025613_n.jpg https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/10113...
joezydeco 13y ago
Last night there were a bunch of RSA-encoded tweets from @cryptomeorg apparently directed toward Manning, Jonsdottir, and maybe Assange/Snowden. Now they've been deleted. Really spooky stuff going on.
patrickg_zill 13y ago
Is it an act of war to search a diplomatic pouch or not? And isn't the entirety of the plane, essentially a diplomatic pouch?
- tantalor 13y ago
  Is it an act of war to search a diplomatic pouch or not? It might be viewed as aggressive or politically scandalous, but I don't think it has caused war in the past. And isn't the entirety of the plane, essentially a diplomatic pouch? You have to clearly mark the container as a diplomatic bag, and even then I doubt a plane would qualify. It has to be a sealed container, like a shipping crate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_bag http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_bag
  - tomjen3 13y ago
    Yeah, but embassy cars are considered unsearchable.
tantalor 13y ago
How does "cancelled air permits" become "airspace blockade"?
sigzero 13y ago
Complaining to the UN reminds me of "Stop! Or I will shout stop again!".
oscardelben 13y ago
"Im not going to be scrambling jets to find some 29 year old hacker."
- haakon 13y ago
  Well he turned 30, so Obama didn't lie.
ryguytilidie 13y ago
If I was the Bolivian president I would have called a press conference and mocked these countries for essentially becoming US territories and not being independent for about an hour or so. A few "how do you sleep at night knowing that your citizens voted for you but that the US government actually controls you" would have been slipped in there. Embarrass the shit out of them WHILE making their citizens furious at their own leader.
- vpeters25 13y ago
  Not a good idea to insult the countries your plane needs to fly over while you are asking for their permission. Now, right after President Morales' plane lands safely in Bolivia ....
znowi 13y ago
Excuse me, but this is fucking outrageous! Once a supporter of Obama, I come to loathe him and the rest of American political establishment. They're doing a stellar job at bolstering anti-American sentiments worldwide. How far can a single country go in exercising its might and power? This has to stop, people. It will not end well.
Uchikoma 13y ago
According to German media, France and Spain deny that they blocked the airspace.
deleted 13y ago
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vlasta2 13y ago
Stopping a presidential plane because there may be someone as dangerous as Snowden onboard? That is completely ridiculous and out of proportion. Not only did no European country officially offer Snowden asylum, we have even made fools of ourselves by this action. I feel personally ashamed by what Europe did. Although my country has no direct involvement in this incident, it happened awfully close and it is depressing. Did Europe lost all sense and morals?
spdy 13y ago
What did Snowden really see when he took off. If states get so nervous that they are willing to ground an elected leader just for powerplays their is some serious stuff going on. Someone really high up pulls on many strings. Snowden did not leave main media attention for over 3 weeks now. Lets hope he has a death man switch on his data.
jsz0 13y ago
You don't have to ponder this much to see what kind of abuse of power this is How so? These countries have every right to deny aircraft entry into their airspace. Seems like they don't want to take any risks getting involved in the Snowden situation. Totally their choice.
mehmehshoe 13y ago
This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

537 points by Libertatea 13y ago

This is really, _really_ serious. Even more so that Snowden wasn't even on board, so effectively France, Spain, Portugal and Italy refused airspace to a _presidential jet_ over _claims_ by the US govt (which by the way turned out to be false). This is crazy.

ghshephard 13y ago
I don't know how serious it is - Bolivia is ranked #93 in the world in terms of GDP, and isn't particularly strategic. They can complain, but, at the end of the day, this won't amount to much.
- steeve 13y ago
  Indeed, but all the South American countries are outraged by this, so it's getting bigger.
- yaix 13y ago
  Apart from damaging even more the already quite low international reputation of the US. And one day some country may use this as a precedent for a more damaging action. There are international rules for a reason, and it took us centuries to get them in place and universally accepted.
  - prollyignored5 13y ago
    > Apart from damaging even more the already quite low international reputation of the US. You have never been pig farming, have you ? All that pigs care is eating shit. Swimming in shit. Drinking shit. You can, say ... "Hey piggy, clean up ! Be decent !" But it will throw shit on your face and lick it with glee. The interesting thing is, even if you hit your favorite doubly elected representative with feces, he will get a mexican to clean it and move on, as usual. > international reputation I am such a cunt, I can sit here and comment. I want to reduce reality to a spectacle.
  - paganel 13y ago
    > And one day some country may use this as a precedent for a more damaging action Slightly related, but the 1993 Rwanda civil war was started because of a (let's say) similar incident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Habyarimana_and_Ntaryamira http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Habyarimana_an... > The airplane carrying Rwandan president Juvénal Habyarimana and Burundian president Cyprien Ntaryamira was shot down as it prepared to land in Kigali, Rwanda. The assassination set in motion some of the bloodiest events of the late 20th century, the Rwandan Genocide and the First Congo War.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- alan_cx 13y ago
  No idea why you are voted down here. From a US POV Bolivia is nothing. Replies about US reputation are irrelevant. We clearly see that US reputation is irrelevant, since it has the financial and military power force its will.
  - sheri 13y ago
    Because Bolivia is 'nothing' from a US POV, doesn't make it any less wrong. Apart from right and wrong, there are several examples where countries which were 'nothing', are creating several problems for the US. Most of the middle-east, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc are countries which at some point were 'nothing'. It is because of this heavy-handed approach that he was being downvoted.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    Reputation is extremely important for long term security. We're finding this out, and I think it'll only get worse if we don't start treating others with respect.
  - outworlder 13y ago
    This is a real slippery slope. Just how "big" does a country have to be so that its rights will be respected?
  - ghshephard 13y ago
    I think people are taking my assessment of how "serious" this is to the United States as a indication of my belief as to how just/unjust or reasonable their behavior is. Over twenty or so years, I learned that when it suits their purpose/needs, the US is willing to step on much more important and strategically important countries than Bolivia. And, in this situation, apparently all they were asking for was countries (presumably friendly to the United States) to request a passenger/manifest inspection in return for over-flight privileges. I wonder how many people here are aware that the United States requires this of every single flight from Canada that passes over the united states, in particular, " requires airline carriers to hand over the names, birth dates and gender of all passengers travelling through American air space." regardless of whether they are landing in the US. http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/print.main?id=4988025 http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/pr...
- anu_gupta 13y ago
  That's the attitude that's made your country so despised by so many.
  - ghshephard 13y ago
    I'm not an American. Canadian. And we have a very long history with the United States that has taught us that when it comes to conflicts, the United States always ends up winning, regardless of perceived objective facts of the situation. Google "Softwood Lumber United States Canada" - Basically wiped out (economically) the province I was in (or at least if felt like that in Lumby). Shut down entire towns. Despite trade agreements, and ruling after ruling going against them, The United States was able to arbitrarily decide that the cost of Lumber in Canada was too low, and set tariffs high enough to protect their own industry. This was front page news for 10+ years in BC. I have a gut feeling for what going against the (much larger) United States is like when you are smaller, even if you are a close trading partner and neighbor.
- InclinedPlane 13y ago
  This is just "might makes right". It's not an ideology that anyone who wants to live in a country or a world that values individual liberty should desire. Consider how few hops it is between "it's ok to violate a country's sovereignty if it is small and powerless" and "it's ok to violate someone's 'rights' so long as they are powerless, unimportant, or poor".
  - rayiner 13y ago
    Not really. There is a principled distinction between the two: people in other countries are not part of the same social pact and thus don't have rights. Its tribalism, sure, but tribalism has historically been pretty effective at maintaining different standards internally versus externally.
    - westicle 13y ago
      Yeah, well maybe the people in MY state are OK, but those bastards one state over are fair game. And don't get me started about the neighbours across the road. Their tribe has no rights in my book.
      - rayiner 13y ago
        The people one state over are part of the same compact (the Constitution) with you. A compact which, by the way, bars you from discriminating against them in commerce, which actually causes a lot of problems in practice. E.g. states that want to enact social welfare programs for their own people have a difficult time doing so at the state level, because of free rider effects (it is unconstitutional to require a citizen of another state to live in your state for say a year before applying for welfare benefits). Trying to get around the free rider effect creates increased demand for solutions at the federal level, which undermines federalism and state sovereignty. At the level of sovereign nations, similar pushes for extending rights across national boundaries creates pressure for trans-national governments. It's no accident that the tearing down of economic barriers between European states went hand-in-hand with the creation of trans-EU legislative and executive bodies. There is a lot of value to trans-national barriers that isn't immediately obvious, especially in a democracy.
- Buzaga 13y ago
  The more the US make use and abuse it's force, the more it will lose it, the more it will try to keep control, the more authoritarian it will become, the more resistance will grow, the more the US will get alone. Keep thinking like that.
  - outworlder 13y ago
    "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." ―Princess Leia to Grand Moff Tarkin.
- Vivtek 13y ago
  Sometimes you just have to take a little country and smash it against the wall to show the world who's boss - is that the game you're playing? Americans loved international law as long as it was to our advantage; now it's passé to imagine that anybody but Americans or rich people might have rights endowed by their Creator. I guess it's not so self-evident these days.
- vadman 13y ago
  Not sure why everybody is downvoting you, especially sicne you don't claim to be happy about the facts, just stating them. Bolivia is, well, unimportant, and their complaints to the US will amount to nothing. There are exactly 2 countries in the world that the US cannot mess with. If it was a Russian or a Chinese plane, do you all think it would be denied airspace entry? (And EVEN IF it was denied entry and still decided to go through, do you think anything would happen to it?) What should be downvoted is the state of affairs when a US whistleblower has to be escorted around the world by Putin himself to guarantee his safety.
  - ghshephard 13y ago
    Well, I'm happy to see the downvotes. It suggests that idealism is alive and well on HN. Ironically, I speak from the experience of being the citizen of Canada, in particular, BC that had a number of disagreements with the United States (Air, Water, Lumber Tariffs) over 10 years. Issues that I'm certain 99.99% of the United States has never heard of, were front page news of the Vancouver Sun on-and-off for a decade. There was a sense of anger, helplessness, and eventually resentment (but, to some degree, acceptance) that when engaging in disputes with much larger countries, you need to avoid going up against them head-on, because you will lose every time. At least we got NAFTA out of it, which has worked out well for some percentage of the Canadian population.
  - Dewie 13y ago
    It's not as if Bolivia and the US live in a vacuum. The rest of the world can see what they are doing, and they might not be so impressed by it.
    - vadman 13y ago
      The rest of the world is the other 2 countries that matter (and shit like that doesn't happen to them), a multitude of countries that don't matter (the USA doesn't give a fuck what their impression is) and a handful of "allies" who are in it with the US. It will take really coordinated efforts of multiple governments for the US to even start caring about "impressions" and so on. Highly unlikely to happen.
yaix 13y ago
> _claims_ by the US govt Last time the US gov't claimed some stuff that turned out to be a lie, more than 100.000 civilians died as a consequence. And there are still civilians dying every day, because of that claim.
- WildUtah 13y ago
  Last time the US gov't claimed some stuff that turned out to be a lie, more than 100.000 civilians Last time? If there were a clock that ticked every time high US government officials lied over matters of state, you could use it as a fan.
  - pvnick 13y ago
    >If there were a clock that ticked every time high US government officials lied over matters of state, you could use it as a fan. I just want to say how brilliant I thought this expression was. I can't believe people don't use it more often
    - kryten 13y ago
      Very true! Awesome expression.
    - swamp40 13y ago
      It comes from an old joke about onanism and the devil.
  - seferphier 13y ago
    brilliant. i'm stealing that expression from you.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  I don't think that was the last time...
- dhimes 13y ago
  I don't think it is a lie so much as total incompetence. Good thing we can trust them to do the right thing with our private data.
Svip 13y ago
For the record, Spain and France are denying that they refused the plane entry.[0] [0] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3eba3e4b0e80ab6523aa8 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a...
- smegel 13y ago
  Lol i wonder if the nsa hacked the radio freq and sent false transmissions
- patrickaljord 13y ago
  Also for the record, Evo Morales is insane. Here he is saying that eating chicken makes you gay http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT3yCRjEDCI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT3yCRjEDCI
  - pavs 13y ago
    Bush said God told him to invade iraq and other boatload of stupid shit, didn't stop Americans from electing him twice. What does it say about bush and even worse what does it say about americans? The point is, what stupid shit the president said has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.
    - patrickaljord 13y ago
      He's making a claim that various countries claim to be untrue (they say his plane wasn't denied). So reminding people that Morales is no stranger to making false claims is relevant IMO. That being said, those other countries could be the ones lying too for all I know. No need to get rude though.
      - andyhmltn 13y ago
        'Two wrongs don't make a right'
        13y ago
antr 13y ago
It has been officially confirmed that Spain and France did not refuse airspace. It seems that the announcement (by unknown source) was made to disrupt the flight, and create a halo of sovereign support towards limiting Snowden's freedom of movement.
- smackfu 13y ago
  My guess is that these unnamed officials in Spain and France are playing games with terminology, to confuse matters. Like they didn't "refuse airspace", they just refused to give the plane a flight plan through the airspace.
  - antr 13y ago
    My guess is that the list of countries restricting airspace was said by an Austrian "official" to the Bolivian passengers, including the Bolivian president once they landed. At no point in time I have seen an article stating the "unnamed officials in Spain and France" have closed the airspace to the Bolivian president. What is official is that named French and Spanish officials have denied such statements. Additionally, the plane has landed in Spain to refuel. No questions asked, no plane searched, no restrictions. This should clear many doubts.
    - smackfu 13y ago
      >Additionally, the plane has landed in Spain to refuel. No questions asked, no plane searched, no restrictions. This should clear many doubts. After the plane was already searched in Austria. Doesn't seem to be much risk of letting them land at that point.
      - antr 13y ago
        Like you, I can be a cynic, I can read between the lines, I can speculate. When the news stream is limited, and there is a lot of noise, I don't do any of the above. The real "risk" here is, press and citizens, jumping to false conclusions.
duiker101 13y ago
This is the first time I see Italy included in this story where did you get that from?
reeses 13y ago
Presidential planes should be relatively free from interference, but they're not sacrosanct. For example, the US Sec'y of State warned Iraq to deny access to airspace to any sovereign countries wishing to aid President Assad. In addition, several congressmen (both houses) have asked for the military destruction of the Syrian presidential plane. Hussein, Gaddafi, Ceaușescu, etc., would have been treated similarly had they made a diplomatic attempt to fly over many countries during the times they were openly perceived as being international criminals. I imagine this would be more than about Snowden. This is one of the first moves to show Morales that he is not in as strong a position now that Chavez is dead.
- toyg 13y ago
  > This is one of the first moves to show Morales that he is not in as strong a position now that Chavez is dead. If that was the real aim, it's even more misguided: there's nothing better to solidify internal support than a bit of unprovoked foreign aggression. Differently from many other Latin American rulers, Morales' (and before him Chavez's) power is directly linked to oil prices, not to perceived US benevolence.
  - reeses 13y ago
    The US does not have a policy of caring that much about internal support, unfortunately.
    - toyg 13y ago
      And this is why Venezuela will continue to be a sticky point for them. It's not 1970 anymore, you can't think of overthrowing an elected government with the sole support of a bunch of elites, you have to be clever and divide public opinion enough to squeeze in your "preferred choice". Unless, of course, you just bomb it back to the middle ages, but in most cases that's not an option.

vrepsys 13y ago

This is getting really weird: this morning French and Spanish officials have denied refusing to let that plane in. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3eba3e4b0e80ab6523aa8 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a...

josteink 13y ago
You mean like everything Snowden has uncovered so far, which has as a theme that whoever is ordered to do something is forbidden from telling anyone about it afterwards? Seems to fit the picture perfectly well IMO.
reidrac 13y ago
The Spanish press is reporting that after the plane was delayed (it was expected to land in the Canary Islands) they had to confirm the permission, and it was granted as expected. The Spanish foreign ministry said they never denied landing or requested to inspect the plane (in Spanish soil). Apparently the Spanish ambassador asked Evo Morales to allow the Austrian police to inspect the plane, and he finally did. All this thing is confusing, indeed.
- sounds 13y ago
  No, Morales landed in the (Spanish-controlled) Canary Islands to refuel after he was denied access to France, et al. The quote from Morales in this article may be part of the source for the confusion, but as you say the Spanish press reports there was some delay, and I imagine Morales was pretty upset already. His quote seems to be lumping Spain in with the others. What's your source for the Spanish press, if I may ask? I realize that I'm not citing any great sources for what happened in Spain, I'm working on it... Here's one that lists France, Portugal, and Italy as nations denying Morales access to their airspace: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/03/us-usa-security-snowden-bolivia-idUSBRE9611AT20130703 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/03/us-usa-security-sn...
  - reidrac 13y ago

nicholassmith 13y ago

Good for Bolivia. This has started becoming a farce now, on hand you've had Obama stating that the U.S. wasn't going to spend political currency wheeling and dealing to get Snowden back, and handwaving over the core issue of overreach. Then on the other you've got the U.S. making veiled threats about repercussions to anyone willing to offer him asylum.

chunkyslink 13y ago
As a Brit I've seen every US government since I was old enough to take notice, act like this. They go through the official media outlets saying one thing and then do completely the opposite. I've often wondered how the American people who seem so intelligent on the one hand fall for this each and every time. Or is it rather that on the whole they have all these nice houses in nice safe places (no wars etc) with hundreds of TV channels to watch that in a way no one can be bothered to do anything about the way their leaders make them look internationally.
- m0nty 13y ago
  > I've often wondered how the American people who seem so intelligent on the one hand fall for this each and every time. I think the same thing is true for Britain as well. We have a largely docile population in the face of grotesque abuses by governments of all political stripe.
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    Mostly Brits can only screw over Brits. The US can screw over countries. Same nasty deal, sure, but the scope of the US is much, much bigger.
    - grey-area 13y ago
      You might want to rethink that conclusion - lots of US traffic to anywhere in Europe is going through the UK on tapped lines and being delivered back to the NSA. The UK has a lot of power to harm US citizens, EU partners, and UK citizens by doing this.

mtgx 13y ago

What's funny is that all of those countries are now denying that they did this to him. Do they really think they can get away with that, and it won't be proven that they did it, or that the public will even believe them? US and its immediate allies are making their situation worse and worse for themselves.

tonylemesmer 13y ago
who are they? who is he? what is it? who are they? what is it? who are they? Apologies for all the questions, just not sure what your comment means :)
- freehunter 13y ago
  Read the article. That's what it's linked for, right up at the top of the page.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - tonylemesmer 13y ago
    Thanks I read the article. The comment contains so many pronouns it is indecipherable.
    - freehunter 13y ago
      If you're speaking English as a second language, I feel for you. Foreign languages are hard with pronouns. If you're a native English speaker, reading the article first leaves no questions as to who is who.
tcoppi 13y ago
Or, you know, maybe they actually didn't deny his flight the airspace?
- 13y ago

ra 13y ago

overreaching incompetent bullying.

beedogs 13y ago
or the death-throes of a crumbling empire.
- freetibet 13y ago
  Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on where you stand, America's power is rapidly growing stronger, because they will soon be a net exporter of oil and a myriad of other reasons. It is more realistic to fix its problems than wish it were going away
  - flyinRyan 13y ago
    And what possible plan of attack is there for fixing its problems? Voting clearly doesn't work. Violent revolution has about a 0.0000000001% chance of success (if I'm extremely generous). If you could get hundreds of thousands of the right people flooding all aspects of US politics you might have a chance, but that probably has worse odds than a revolution. I can't imagine any possible way to fix the US now. All we can hope is that they will keep acting insane until the rest of the world simply unplugs from them. We can't stop their power but they can become the "North Korea" continent that we all shake our heads over but realize there's nothing that can be done that would be worth what it would cost.
  - tomjen3 13y ago
    The US is growing weaker, (and that is not a good thing), I don't see how it will ever export oil, its economy is a disaster, the hole in its public treasury is legendary, etc. Meanwhile China is growing like weeds.
    - freetibet 13y ago
      The problem with the US is that is does not have a credible peer, it could have been China but they are about to pop their real estate bubble and the EU is not as strong as it should be, so who is on par?

scrrr 13y ago

It seems like the USA own Europe. What happened yesterday is very serious.

yaix 13y ago
My guess is that the US has enough information about the illegal spying our EU governments do to us, that no elected politician here in Europe would risk to have that leaked.
- retrogradeorbit 13y ago
  The same is true for the US politicians. They also have all their phone calls recorded and all their emails and messages read. And accessible by millions of private contractors of unknown allegiances. Start reading boiling frogs post and listening to the interviews to understand the true situation.
  - waxjar 13y ago
    > "millions of private contractors" ?
    - shabble 13y ago
      http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/ http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/ Millions is probably overstating it though. FTA: "An estimated 854,000 people, nearly 1.5 times as many people as live in Washington, D.C., hold top-secret security clearances." Which might place a rough estimate of tens to hundreds of thousands (depending on how many would be in the Military, work directly for the Govt, or work on other programmes)
- parasight 13y ago
  You mean there is not one european politician with the least bit of integrity? You mean they _all_ care more for there career than for the truth? I desperately hope your wrong but I guess you are right.
13y ago

noarchy 13y ago

You don't have to ponder this much to see what kind of abuse of power this is. As a brief thought experiment, imagine a country trying to ground Air Force One (the US presidential plane), and then asking to search it. I'm thinking you'd see calls for war, from political pundits in the US.

Svip 13y ago
The Spanish were denied to search the plane, for the record. Edit: I inaccurately wrote Austrians.
- tomp 13y ago
  Reference? The article claims: > Morales refuted speculation that Snowden had stowed away on the plane and allowed authorities to conduct a search.
- bschwarz 13y ago
  They did search the plane according to the foreign ministry's Twitter https://twitter.com/Minoritenplatz8/status/352321639108714496 https://twitter.com/Minoritenplatz8/status/35232163910871449...
- halviti 13y ago
  Please at least read the article before you comment. They did indeed search the plane.
- smegel 13y ago
  You mean they denied they searched the plane, or they tried to search the plane and were denied?
- Svip 13y ago
  I am not sure that makes sense anymore, considering that Spain is denying they ever denied the plane entry.[0] [0] http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_23590259/snowden-france-denies-blocking-bolivian-plane http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_23590259/snowden...

ed_blackburn 13y ago

Presumably all communication on board is recorded on the blackbox? If so perhaps an unedited copy of the dialogue can be published?

heidar 13y ago
You can listen to it here: http://audioboo.fm/boos/1482009-bolivia-air-force-fuerza-aerea-boliviana-fab001-flight-precaution-landing-vienna-austria http://audioboo.fm/boos/1482009-bolivia-air-force-fuerza-aer... Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3d7d8e4b0300b24e64d90 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a...
- deletes 13y ago
  This conversation between the plane and a (tower) operator, seems more like when the plane is just about to land in Austria.
  - heidar 13y ago
    Here's where I got the link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3d7d8e4b0300b24e64d90 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a... I should have linked this in the first place.
- jwr 13y ago
  From that recording it seems that it is the pilot who initiated the landing because of problems reading a fuel indicator? There seems to be a lot of confusion around this whole landing.
yread 13y ago
they are only recorded in the actual cockpit (this would probably happen in cabin. Also they are overwritten every 2 hours (depending on type)

beedogs 13y ago

As a US citizen (for another couple weeks), I'm really getting tired of America's shit.

willvarfar 13y ago
Advice: wait three more weeks before continuing in this vein.
- andyhmltn 13y ago
  May I ask why?
  - ihsw 13y ago
    The walls have ears.
  - peterjancelis 13y ago
    Was probably just a joke saying to wait until he got rid of his US citizenship. "A couple of weeks" = 2 weeks. "Wait 3 weeks" = the week after the couple of weeks are over.
ciupicri 13y ago
Out of curiosity why are you renouncing your citizenship?
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  Living outside the US as an American is pretty hard. It's one of two countries on earth that expects you to keep filing, and paying taxes even if you have never set foot inside the country (e.g. born in Spain to one American parent), you have to report any bank account you control to the US every year. That includes company accounts you have signing rights over, so forget being a stock trader in a "tax haven" country, etc. It's a lot of trouble and it gets worse every year since we're one of the few groups the politicians can demonize and exploit with no consequence at all. Anyone rich enough to have power isn't affected by these laws, practically speaking.

X4 13y ago

The first victim of war is truth.

Create 13y ago
Barack Obama: 'Won't scramble jets for Snowden' there have been some "useful conversations" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23085138 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23085138
- X4 13y ago
  Look at that Bodylanguage and his eye movements and double-check what he actually means http://s1.hubimg.com/u/1776076_f520.jpg http://s1.hubimg.com/u/1776076_f520.jpg Wow, Thank you for the insightful video!

Shivetya 13y ago

Act of Aggression? More like acts of obsequiousness. Whats the world coming too when even Russia is emasculated before the United States. Its expected, though I would prefer otherwise, that the EU countries bend over, but damn its getting silly now. As I posted in another thread, here is a fine preview of a one world government, you cannot run, you cannot hide. Truth and justice are at the whim of those who run the place.

w0utert 13y ago
>> Whats the world coming too when even Russia is emasculated before the United States. Its expected, though I would prefer otherwise, that the EU countries bend over, but damn its getting silly now. I don't think Russia is very eager to get into discussions about the ethics of international espionage and the way intelligence agencies operate. Somehow I also don't think they have much sympathy for whistleblowers exposing said ethics. The last guy who was a little too open about how the FSB and KGB operates was 'mysteriously' poisoned with pollonium.
copx 13y ago
Russia invaded Georgia (an US ally) not long ago, pulverizing the equipment of the Georgian military (which largely came from the US) and seizing much of its territory. It was a major victory for Putin, which undermined America's Russia containment strategy (which was to surround Russia with well-armed NATO allies). He basically played chicken with the US, risking a war.. and won. Putin is a horrible guy but afraid of the US or "emasculated" he certainly isn't. Putin simply has no interest in helping Snowden. Remember that Putin openly supported totalitarian surveillance schemes like PRISM: http://reason.com/24-7/2013/06/13/putin-supports-united-states-surveillanc http://reason.com/24-7/2013/06/13/putin-supports-united-stat...

jotaass 13y ago

As an european this disgusts me to no end. It can really hurt your patriotism and sense of pride in your country when you realize it's not actually a country at all, just a subservient state, willing to do anything to avoid drawing the attention of the big fat bully. In the end we're all afraid to fight for anything when life is too hard already, I guess.

danmaz74 13y ago
As a fellow european, I absolutely agree. The only way out I see is to become a federal country, but I don't see that happening with all our internal infighting. Divide et impera.
- sesqu 13y ago
  Some people react to bullying by learning how to bully; some people by learning how not to. It's hard to see either tactic working out.
eshvk 13y ago
Why is this surprising? America poured in money during the Marshall plan to build up Europe; NATO is essentially another arm of the American armed forces. It is you, the voting European citizen who is responsible for both closer integration of Europe and for Europe to have its own defense capabilities. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
- Uchikoma 13y ago
  America poured in money during the Marshall plan to create a market for US companies that needed new markets after they produced a lot of stuff for the army during the war. "The Marshall Plan aid was mostly used for the purchase of goods from the United States. (...) In the latter years, under pressure from the United States Congress and with the outbreak of the Korean War, an increasing amount of the aid was spent on rebuilding the militaries of Western Europe. Of the some $13 billion allotted by mid-1951, $3.4 billion had been spent on imports of raw materials and semi-manufactured products; $3.2 billion on food, feed, and fertilizer; $1.9 billion on machines, vehicles, and equipment; and $1.6 billion on fuel" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan#German_level_of_industry_restrictions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan#German_level_of_i...

retrogradeorbit 13y ago

The curtain falls and we see the true nature of the global hegemony, and how far it reaches.

ihsw 13y ago
The TPP and TAFTA will solidify the global hegemony, and no I'm not trying to be sensationalist or paranoid: this is the nature of economic agreements between countries (shattered borders, economic and legislative integration).

danmaz74 13y ago

As a EU citizen, I'm really ashamed of this. Are we the guard dogs of US interest, even when the US so obviously disregards our own interests - and rights - as in this case?

paganel 13y ago
> Are we the guard dogs of US interest, That's what happens when you externalize almost all of your defense-related needs. France did try to go its own way around the 1960s, but it turns out building lots of carriers and nuclear-powered submarines is not that easy when you're not in the global top three, economically speaking (and even so, the Soviets went bust because of it). And of course recent attempts at a "common European defense policy" are a farce, as most of the people who know a thing or two about the matter will attest. </rant from another European citizen>
- danmaz74 13y ago
  They are a farce, but they shouldn't be. A common defense policy would be so much more effective AND efficient. The real problem is that we would need a common foreign policy too...
dublinclontarf 13y ago
Don't you mean a citizen of an EU country? Last I heard the EU wasn't a state.
- netrus 13y ago
  Try to google "world citizen". Language is a tool, not a prison.
- sveiss 13y ago
  The EU may not be a state, but it can still have citizens. http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/ http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/
- danmaz74 13y ago
  Last I heard the EU wasn't a state and that's the problem...

ramblerman 13y ago

France's involvement in particular makes my blood boil. To feign complete outrage over being spied upon yet happily tarnish relations with a sovereign nation to catch the whistleblower.

lazyjones 13y ago
I'm not surprised, considering how corrupt politicians are everywhere (including the EU) and how useful PRISM must be for threatening/blackmailing them into submission.
- cLeEOGPw 13y ago
  Maybe US even used PRISM data to blackmail those officials? It's crazy, but after all this I would not throw the possibility away.
  - lazyjones 13y ago
    In the (very) recent light of Austria's decision to search Morales' plane (I'm Austrian; Morales is claiming that he was basically "kidnapped" now according to local newspapers), this is actually a plausible explanation, because the only other would assume so much stupidity and recklessness on behalf of our politicians that I cannot imagine it, even though the foreign ministry is held by the ÖVP (of Ernst Strasser fame: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Strasser#2011_cash_for_influence_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Strasser#2011_cash_for_i...).
cubicle67 13y ago
Don't forget the Rainbow Warrior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior

T-zex 13y ago

Unsurprisingly its Austria, their politicians would obey KGB [1][2] and now NSA. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14202371 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14202371 [2] http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2011/07/lithuania-and-austria http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2011/07/lit...

ramblerman 13y ago

I'm not generally a conspiracy theorist, but you have to wonder what we still don't know if this is the extent to which the US is willing to go to get this guy. Not only are they further torpedoing their international image, I would imagine they severely strained their reach with nations like France when it turns out he wasn't on board.

shubb 13y ago
I haven't seen anyone elsewhere point out that maybe he is onboard. It may not be the case, but there must have been some convincing information to convince various countries to do this, and our evidence against is the departure site and the president's word. There is an ongoing tension between a block of south American countries (see the Argentinian tweets on github), and the USA. Non-violent aggressive acts like this, or conversely offering asylum, are part of it. The US has strongly resisted any external influence on the rest of the continent, as a doctrine. Now a block is forming locally, they will go to great lengths to resist it. I think an explanation for why the block is upset in turn can be found in the leaked cables.
- enko 13y ago
  > I haven't seen anyone elsewhere point out that maybe he is onboard. I've seen speculation along those lines, especially since it emerged they didn't allow a proper search. A "walk-through" indeed - I would be willing to bet there's at least 10 places he could have been hiding. It will be absolutely hilarious if he turns out to have been on board all along. Apparently, however, the plane left from a different airport, so I don't know how he could have gotten from one to the other without having to officially enter Russia.

fmax30 13y ago

This just made me realize that how desperate the US government is to capture Snowden , Kinda makes you think he (snowden) has something up his sleeve that the US doesn't want out. Now I am interested.

anvandare 13y ago
I'm thinking it's more about sending a message to other (potential) leakers: "This is how powerful we are, this is how far we'll go to hunt you down. Nobody is going to help you, and no one is going to stop us."

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

drunkenmasta 13y ago

you would think that with "intelligence" agencies looking into it they would be able to tell whether or not Snowden was in an airport terminal or was getting on a plane. All this "we have no idea where Snowden is" sounds like BS to me. If Snowden was a free man we would be seeing his face doing a video interview.

Fuxy 13y ago

Well at least we know know which countries are US lapdogs France, Spain and Portugal. You could probably add UK to that. Let's see who else shows their colors.

antr 13y ago
It has been officially confirmed that Spain and France did not refuse airspace. It seems that the airspace restrictions announcement (by unknown source) was made to disrupt the flight, and create a halo of sovereign support towards limiting Snowden's freedom of movement. As far as I'm concerned, the only US lapdog in Europe is the UK.
- andyhmltn 13y ago
  You mean like the official statements on how the US aren't listening to its citizen's phone calls? I don't think an 'official statement' holds any weight after what we've seen in the past few weeks.
  - antr 13y ago
    I can too be a cynic, but the fact that the plane has landed in Spain to refuel should support the "official statement"
    - Vivtek 13y ago
      Sure - after being searched in Austria.
    - Andrew_Quentin 13y ago
      after the plane was searched and no Snowden was found.
- sveme 13y ago
  Wait a second - do you have a trustworthy reference? Are you (or the media) suggesting that the US managed to infiltrate European air traffic control and hoaxed the bolivian plane to land? I would not trust those official announcements, more likely that we'll have to dissect them carefully to see what they are not saying, e.g.: "We did not officially refuse them access to our airspace." (But the airspace was so crowded that due to security reasons no further planes could be allowed).

milhous 13y ago

I'm embarrassed as an American. They love bullying smaller countries but would never dare force down a plane carrying the Chinese or Russian President. That could be construed as an act of war.

chiph 13y ago
I really don't understand why we are going out of our way to piss-off everyone else on the planet. Surely Hanlon's Razor can't be at work here.
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  Maybe Obama really is an extremist muslim trying to destroy America? Things are getting bizarre enough that that no longer seems one of the craziest ideas I've heard.

guictx 13y ago

Yesterday evening, at 9:24 PM GMT, the portuguese public TV station showed a news piece (http://www.rtp.pt/noticias/index.php?article=663664&tm=7&layout=122&visual=61 http://www.rtp.pt/noticias/index.php?article=663664&tm=7&lay...) saying that Edward Snowden had already left Moscow on the Bolivian presidential aircraft. According to the report, the fact Snowden was on the plane was the reason invoked by the portuguese government to deny landing. There's no indication of source for this report, neither a search on the internet on the following hour revealed anything similar. So I'm guessing now that this was probably planted to make sure the portuguese government had something to corroborate their decision. Really shameful...

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

Noxchi 13y ago

Why did his plane have to land? What's Austria going to do, shoot it down?

iaskwhy 13y ago
My understanding is that there's not enough fuel to cross the ocean so they needed some place to refuel. Given noone would give permission they probably decided it was for the best to land in Austria.

personlurking 13y ago

I wonder what would have happened had the plane just kept flying. No one is going to shoot down a presidential plane.

rahoulb 13y ago
All they'd have to say is that the plane was a danger to other planes in the area. If it was ignoring air traffic control orders then that is probably all the justification they need, president or not.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
yread 13y ago
They had to refuel in Canary islands. Dassault Falcon 900EX only has range 7400km, but Moscow to La Paz is 12500km
- personlurking 13y ago
  So assuming they ignored being grounded and just refueled in the Canaries, if their flight plan was pre-ok'd, then they wouldn't be endangering others.
tomjen3 13y ago
Tell that to the poles.

fakeer 13y ago

Hey Bolivians, in case you are reading this - this should be reason enough to oppose the next western interference in your country whether it's in the name of emancipation, oil or ending a dictatorship. Just wanted to say this as the west is too good in propaganda. And yes, it's a shame in the name of democracies, UN and world peace. I think we are actually past all that. The subtle moves by the USA and its cronies have been replaced by blunt and obvious bullying.

wmeredith 13y ago

Isn't all the international posturing over the last few weeks the sort of stuff that starts wars? WTF happened to America? I love this country, but the government is completely off the rails. They think the law doesn't apply to them. Makes me sick.

tomjen3 13y ago
Schoolyard bullies think they can get away with anything, and they can, right until the day one of their victims strike back. And yes, I hate it too. I love the US (even though I am not a citizen) and all the good your country has done for the world, but somehow the last 3 presidents went completely of the rails and went into full-blown paranoia. As a result the US is loosing the respect and hope of the world, for no good reason. Point out a genuine threat and the EU and the rest of NATO will stand with you, spy on Iran, who is your enemy, but understand that the EU is not your enemy. We are your friend and wants only the best for you.
- Dewie 13y ago
  > I love the US (even though I am not a citizen) I sometimes find nationalism strange, but it's also understandable and may be constructive on some level. People being patriotic for countries that they are not citizens of? Now that's straight up hilarious...

rbadaro 13y ago

According to the Portuguese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Portugal did not deny access to their airspace. They did deny landing and reflueling permission in advance (on the 1st of July) for "technical reasons".

Buzaga 13y ago

New meme: Evo Morales can't participate in street fighter because he can't land on opponent's countries... :( https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1011323_549548581754197_439025613_n.jpg https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/10113...

joezydeco 13y ago

Last night there were a bunch of RSA-encoded tweets from @cryptomeorg apparently directed toward Manning, Jonsdottir, and maybe Assange/Snowden. Now they've been deleted. Really spooky stuff going on.

patrickg_zill 13y ago

Is it an act of war to search a diplomatic pouch or not? And isn't the entirety of the plane, essentially a diplomatic pouch?

tantalor 13y ago
Is it an act of war to search a diplomatic pouch or not? It might be viewed as aggressive or politically scandalous, but I don't think it has caused war in the past. And isn't the entirety of the plane, essentially a diplomatic pouch? You have to clearly mark the container as a diplomatic bag, and even then I doubt a plane would qualify. It has to be a sealed container, like a shipping crate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_bag http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_bag
- tomjen3 13y ago
  Yeah, but embassy cars are considered unsearchable.

tantalor 13y ago

How does "cancelled air permits" become "airspace blockade"?

sigzero 13y ago

Complaining to the UN reminds me of "Stop! Or I will shout stop again!".

oscardelben 13y ago

"Im not going to be scrambling jets to find some 29 year old hacker."

haakon 13y ago
Well he turned 30, so Obama didn't lie.

ryguytilidie 13y ago

If I was the Bolivian president I would have called a press conference and mocked these countries for essentially becoming US territories and not being independent for about an hour or so. A few "how do you sleep at night knowing that your citizens voted for you but that the US government actually controls you" would have been slipped in there. Embarrass the shit out of them WHILE making their citizens furious at their own leader.

vpeters25 13y ago
Not a good idea to insult the countries your plane needs to fly over while you are asking for their permission. Now, right after President Morales' plane lands safely in Bolivia ....

znowi 13y ago

Excuse me, but this is fucking outrageous! Once a supporter of Obama, I come to loathe him and the rest of American political establishment. They're doing a stellar job at bolstering anti-American sentiments worldwide. How far can a single country go in exercising its might and power? This has to stop, people. It will not end well.

Uchikoma 13y ago

According to German media, France and Spain deny that they blocked the airspace.

deleted 13y ago

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vlasta2 13y ago

Stopping a presidential plane because there may be someone as dangerous as Snowden onboard? That is completely ridiculous and out of proportion. Not only did no European country officially offer Snowden asylum, we have even made fools of ourselves by this action. I feel personally ashamed by what Europe did. Although my country has no direct involvement in this incident, it happened awfully close and it is depressing. Did Europe lost all sense and morals?

spdy 13y ago

What did Snowden really see when he took off. If states get so nervous that they are willing to ground an elected leader just for powerplays their is some serious stuff going on. Someone really high up pulls on many strings. Snowden did not leave main media attention for over 3 weeks now. Lets hope he has a death man switch on his data.

jsz0 13y ago

You don't have to ponder this much to see what kind of abuse of power this is How so? These countries have every right to deny aircraft entry into their airspace. Seems like they don't want to take any risks getting involved in the Snowden situation. Totally their choice.

mehmehshoe 13y ago

This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.