6 ms·

Bolivia says Morales' plane diverted, apparently over Snowden

167 points by airnomad 13y ago

jgrahamc 13y ago
FlightRadar24 has the recorded track of his flight, FAB1, here: http://www.flightradar24.com/#!/2013-07-02/16:35/FAB1 http://www.flightradar24.com/#!/2013-07-02/16:35/FAB1 The odd thing about the claim that Snowden was aboard is that FAB1 took off from Vnukovo but Snowden is apparently in Sheremetyevo. Here's a picture of plane turning round over Austria and then descending and landing in Vienna: http://i.imgur.com/cuUQkWV.jpg http://i.imgur.com/cuUQkWV.jpg UPDATE: News reports say that FAB1 is leaving VIE shortly and it is now appearing on FlightRadar24's live view.
- kriro 13y ago
  I was not even aware that site exists. Pretty fascinating stuff, thx for posting. I'm surprised Poland let him pass if Snowden was really supposed to be on board. US-Polish relations are generally pretty good. Russia->South America without clashing with the US seems like an interesting problem. If Italy,France,Spain,Portugal is blocked you pretty much have to take a giant detour, go through Africa or try flying out east of Russia (which immediately puts you close to the US). Probably have to go on a very southeast route right away...which basically means he might have been better off going Hong Kong->Ecuador if he could have negotiated that option sooner
  - viraptor 13y ago
    > US-Polish relations are generally pretty good. Are they that good? I got an impression they were pretty good while Poland was still promised things like joining the visa waiver program. Now I think many people are quite annoyed at the outcome / delaying for years. The whole project of rocket interception sites is also bringing up some interesting questions lately.
    - smackay 13y ago
      I think you are seeing the "true" influence of government to government relations, rather than the general sentiment on the street or the empty rhetoric from officials. France made a big noise about the spying allegations but quickly blocked access to its airspace. Personally, the action by France and Portugal this made this whole web of deceit even more unpalatable. Time for a few leaders to grow a pair.
    - spottr 13y ago
      Currently Polish government is so pro-USA that our Minister of Foreign Affairs preemptively declined asylum for Snowden using his Twitter [1][2]. It's funny, because instead of building better relations with our neighbors "we" are constantly trying to please the US. This trend continues despite being given nothing but empty promises for years. So yeah, our gov likes to think and say (loudly) that those relations are pretty good -- hard to say if it's because they want to keep their face or for whatever reason. I think that US also likes this arrangement a lot, because free service can't be bad [3]. [1] https://twitter.com/sikorskiradek/status/351959186072027139 https://twitter.com/sikorskiradek/status/351959186072027139 [polish] [2] https://twitter.com/sikorskiradek/status/352062021082165249 https://twitter.com/sikorskiradek/status/352062021082165249 [3] http://rt.com/news/poland-drops-charges-investigation-136/ http://rt.com/news/poland-drops-charges-investigation-136/
- grey-area 13y ago
  It's just taken off again, according to that site: http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/fab-001 http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/fab-001
- alan_cx 13y ago
  I know humor doesn't work so well here, but FAB1? Seriously? International rescue? No? I'll get my coat.
  - jgrahamc 13y ago
    Yes, I had the same thought. The Bolivian Air Force is Fuerza Aérea Boliviana, hence FAB.
    - gngeal 13y ago
      I won't even try to guess what's the code for Peruvian or Colombian military planes is.
buro9 13y ago
Now we know what will happen to Snowden if he is granted asylum by a country that can only be reached by flight. The flight permits will be rescinded, the plane forced to land and subjected to a search, and if Snowden is present I suspect he will be arrested and extradited to the USA on the basis that the asylum is invalid on the grounds that it was not granted in the destination country. Russia really is his best chance. Edit: Which makes me wonder, did Bolivia help spread this rumour (on behalf of Ecuador or Venezuela) to test what would happen
- Irishsteve 13y ago
  I think searching a government / diplomatic plane isn't allowed.
  - acqq 13y ago
    Tell that to Spain: "9.27am BST Morales said he refused a request by the Spanish authorities to inspect his plane in Vienna and has not been granted permission to use Spanish airspace, according to Reuters." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a...
    - vidarh 13y ago
      They are not allowed to forcibly enter. But of course that does not stop bullying like this where they the "request" permission to enter while making it clear they won't allow him to fly through their airspace if he doesn't.
      - zokier 13y ago
        Which could/would cause as big of a diplomatic uproar as forcibly entering the plane.
        ignostic 13y ago
        You seemed to think this would be some sort of protection, but ultimately you were right. Bolivia is pissed. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/03/us-usa-security-snowden-idUSBRE9610C520130703 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/03/us-usa-security-sn...
osivertsson 13y ago
Guardian is doing pretty good live reporting on this fascinating story: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a...
- runn1ng 13y ago
  It's funny how this story goes international. From Hong Kong/Peking to Moskow, to Austria/France, to Venezuela.
  - mtgx 13y ago
    It's good that just like with the Wikileaks scandal, it exposes which countries are vassals to US.
    - tankenmate 13y ago
      Which is information that Bolivia and Venezuela would like to have hard confirmation of. EDIT: it also gives a good indication of the US's reaction times to such over flights.
kkkaaa 13y ago
imagine the chinese would force Obama to land in Bolivia because they think he is carrying Ai Weiwei.
- cskau 13y ago
  The Extradition Treaties states that one of the many things you can be extradited for is "unlawful imprisonment". Realizing that, I figure the world community at large could request to have say Bush and/or Obama extradited for the things going on in Guantanamo. Of course they might object that these fellows enjoy diplomatic immunity and that it's completely ludicrous. But if this incident has shown us anything I believe it's that US & Friends really don't care much about such minor details.
camus 13y ago
That tells a lot about all these European countries that are just puppets of the US government,especially France where I come from... Maybe we should stop the hypocrisy and let Washington govern us directly, we could save a lot of money this way.
- petercooper 13y ago
  This was actually briefly discussed between the UK and US in the 70s: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wilson-wanted-uk-to-be-us-state-1075874.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wilson-wanted-uk-to-be-us-...
  - mtgx 13y ago
    That's funny, going from wanting to be the US' "51st state" to not even wanting to be a full EU member, which I think makes a lot more sense (to be one).
    - alan_cx 13y ago
      In general..... The anti EU people in the UK see the EU as socialist, liberal and left wing. The anti EU people in the UK are...... you guessed it... right wing. Fairly extreme right in UK terms, but probably still left wing by US standards. So, for them, the US is an aspiration further right. IMHO, the EU makes total sense, even if there are many problems with it, and even the US government have urged the UK to get more in to Europe and stop antagonizing it. Partly I think the US likes having the UK as a gateway to Europe. I just wish we in the UK got more out of that deal than we do, like equality and fairness in our deals. Right now, despite my criticism of the US, I'd prefer to be a 51st state, since we'd Brits would no longer have no rights over US excesses. We could sue "our" government, or what ever Americans do!!! Ah, nonsense of course, we need to get on in Europe better.
      - mtgx 13y ago
        But why do you think you'd do any better than Americans right now? From what I can tell, it's even worse in UK with GCHQ and with all the cameras and whatnot, and people have "gotten used to it".
nsns 13y ago
Did the US just facilitate Snowden's asylum? They seem to be locked in eternal overreach.
- phyalow 13y ago
  Yeah tell that to Kim Dotcom. The US seemingly have no respect for sovereignty or foreign process.
  - vidarh 13y ago
    In both cases they seem to be overplaying their hand. Dotcom has a very real chance of getting off largely because the way it was handled have included such blatant disregard for the law. E.g. without the revelations of illegal spying, and the massive overkill of the way his arrest was handled, it might have been a lot easier to gentle "suggest" things to a judge and make the whole thing go away. Instead they've ensured that it's really hard for the judges involved to not treat this seriously. Same with Snowden - creating a diplomatic incident that now has pretty much every Latin American leader screaming bloody murder and have officials describing it as virtually a kidnapping, and complaining about colonialism, means European countries and others will quickly start seeing that there's a very high potential price to pay for bending to US demands in this, in a case where they likely have little sympathy to the US position in the first place given that pretty much all of them have faced revelations of US spying targeting them. If the US keeps pushing like that, they might just find that someone will snap and decide to tell them to go to hell. It'll be interesting to see if they manage the balancing act of pushing just hard enough to keep everyone in line without pushing anyone too far.
- omegant 13y ago
  They don't seem to be handling this very intelligently, more like a bully than anything else. It would be much easier to let Snowden get to a country in southamerica and then after some weeks press under the table to get him arrested. Now doing all this pressing all they get is Snowden in China or Russia's arms.
  - mattvot 13y ago
mtgx 13y ago
A funny comment I picked up from Reddit: > "Bolivia should cut all cocaine exports to the US, and push Colombia to do the same, within a week you would see all US politicians panicking and killing each others trying to check first into rehab"
- tptacek 13y ago
  That's funny because, what, all US politicians use cocaine?
  - eliasmacpherson 13y ago
    Table B.7 Cocaine Use in Past Year, by Age Group and State: Percentages, Annual Averages Based on 2006 and 2007 NSDUHs District of Columbia 5.10 [1] DC out in front by more than a nose, historically too. Probably not just politicians at the trough though. [1] http://oas.samhsa.gov/2k7state/AppB.htm#TabB-1 http://oas.samhsa.gov/2k7state/AppB.htm#TabB-1
    - contacternst 13y ago
      Judging by the demographics of DC... I suspect the vast majority of that cocaine is crack.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
RivieraKid 13y ago
I wonder what would happen if the plane simply refused to leave Spain's or France's air space and continued on their flight.
- mossplix 13y ago
  miltary escort
  - RivieraKid 13y ago
    elaborate please
- RivieraKid 13y ago
  Reason for two downvotes?
shell0x 13y ago
It's sad to see that France and Portugal go this way. No one should support the government of the United Shit of America, especially when you know they are spying on you.
tcoppi 13y ago
AP is now reporting that France didn't block the plane: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_NSA_SURVEILLANCE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-07-03-06-11-50 http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_NSA_SURVEILLANCE?S...
wslh 13y ago
Spreading a rumour like this is a good way to assess yourself about friends and enemies waiting for the real "implementation".
tome 13y ago
Is it usual to ask planes carrying criminal suspects to be forced to land?
- haakon 13y ago
  Nothing is "usual" about the Snowden situation, anyway.
  - tome 13y ago
    I'm trying to gauge whether this is a genuinely strange situation by the standards of international policing.
    - jonknee 13y ago
      Yes, it's unprecedented to stop and frisk a world leader on suspicion of someone on board.
- muyuu 13y ago
  It was not forced to land directly, they were denied entry to airspace and they had to land to refuel, unable to reroute within their fuel limits.
stfu 13y ago
Question: Wouldn't it be super easy to check a private plane for how many passengers are on board? Just watching the passengers board with a thermographic camera should do the trick.
- ig1 13y ago
  It would probably be an illegal search in violation of diplomatic immunity. (airports aren't allowed to scan diplomatic pouches)
  - stfu 13y ago
    I'm sure there is some obscure aviation security policy that makes this a maintenance requirement...
ImprovedSilence 13y ago
Why are there no news reporters just "traveling" the same airport as Snowden, Reporting on the situation and taking new pics. I can't be that easy to hide in an airport, and it can't be that hard to wander around an international airport for awhile when waiting for a long layover... something about the reason we haven't had any of that kind of reporting smells pretty fishy to me... also, how many CIA agents do you think have "traveled" through that airport in the past few days, keeping tabs on things...?

167 points by airnomad 13y ago

FlightRadar24 has the recorded track of his flight, FAB1, here: http://www.flightradar24.com/#!/2013-07-02/16:35/FAB1 http://www.flightradar24.com/#!/2013-07-02/16:35/FAB1 The odd thing about the claim that Snowden was aboard is that FAB1 took off from Vnukovo but Snowden is apparently in Sheremetyevo. Here's a picture of plane turning round over Austria and then descending and landing in Vienna: http://i.imgur.com/cuUQkWV.jpg http://i.imgur.com/cuUQkWV.jpg UPDATE: News reports say that FAB1 is leaving VIE shortly and it is now appearing on FlightRadar24's live view.

kriro 13y ago
I was not even aware that site exists. Pretty fascinating stuff, thx for posting. I'm surprised Poland let him pass if Snowden was really supposed to be on board. US-Polish relations are generally pretty good. Russia->South America without clashing with the US seems like an interesting problem. If Italy,France,Spain,Portugal is blocked you pretty much have to take a giant detour, go through Africa or try flying out east of Russia (which immediately puts you close to the US). Probably have to go on a very southeast route right away...which basically means he might have been better off going Hong Kong->Ecuador if he could have negotiated that option sooner
- viraptor 13y ago
  > US-Polish relations are generally pretty good. Are they that good? I got an impression they were pretty good while Poland was still promised things like joining the visa waiver program. Now I think many people are quite annoyed at the outcome / delaying for years. The whole project of rocket interception sites is also bringing up some interesting questions lately.
  - smackay 13y ago
    I think you are seeing the "true" influence of government to government relations, rather than the general sentiment on the street or the empty rhetoric from officials. France made a big noise about the spying allegations but quickly blocked access to its airspace. Personally, the action by France and Portugal this made this whole web of deceit even more unpalatable. Time for a few leaders to grow a pair.
  - spottr 13y ago
    Currently Polish government is so pro-USA that our Minister of Foreign Affairs preemptively declined asylum for Snowden using his Twitter [1][2]. It's funny, because instead of building better relations with our neighbors "we" are constantly trying to please the US. This trend continues despite being given nothing but empty promises for years. So yeah, our gov likes to think and say (loudly) that those relations are pretty good -- hard to say if it's because they want to keep their face or for whatever reason. I think that US also likes this arrangement a lot, because free service can't be bad [3]. [1] https://twitter.com/sikorskiradek/status/351959186072027139 https://twitter.com/sikorskiradek/status/351959186072027139 [polish] [2] https://twitter.com/sikorskiradek/status/352062021082165249 https://twitter.com/sikorskiradek/status/352062021082165249 [3] http://rt.com/news/poland-drops-charges-investigation-136/ http://rt.com/news/poland-drops-charges-investigation-136/
grey-area 13y ago
It's just taken off again, according to that site: http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/fab-001 http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/fab-001
alan_cx 13y ago
I know humor doesn't work so well here, but FAB1? Seriously? International rescue? No? I'll get my coat.
- jgrahamc 13y ago
  Yes, I had the same thought. The Bolivian Air Force is Fuerza Aérea Boliviana, hence FAB.
  - gngeal 13y ago
    I won't even try to guess what's the code for Peruvian or Colombian military planes is.

buro9 13y ago

Now we know what will happen to Snowden if he is granted asylum by a country that can only be reached by flight. The flight permits will be rescinded, the plane forced to land and subjected to a search, and if Snowden is present I suspect he will be arrested and extradited to the USA on the basis that the asylum is invalid on the grounds that it was not granted in the destination country. Russia really is his best chance. Edit: Which makes me wonder, did Bolivia help spread this rumour (on behalf of Ecuador or Venezuela) to test what would happen

Irishsteve 13y ago
I think searching a government / diplomatic plane isn't allowed.
- acqq 13y ago
  Tell that to Spain: "9.27am BST Morales said he refused a request by the Spanish authorities to inspect his plane in Vienna and has not been granted permission to use Spanish airspace, according to Reuters." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a...
  - vidarh 13y ago
    They are not allowed to forcibly enter. But of course that does not stop bullying like this where they the "request" permission to enter while making it clear they won't allow him to fly through their airspace if he doesn't.
    - zokier 13y ago
      Which could/would cause as big of a diplomatic uproar as forcibly entering the plane.
      - ignostic 13y ago
        You seemed to think this would be some sort of protection, but ultimately you were right. Bolivia is pissed. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/03/us-usa-security-snowden-idUSBRE9610C520130703 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/03/us-usa-security-sn...

osivertsson 13y ago

Guardian is doing pretty good live reporting on this fascinating story: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a...

runn1ng 13y ago
It's funny how this story goes international. From Hong Kong/Peking to Moskow, to Austria/France, to Venezuela.
- mtgx 13y ago
  It's good that just like with the Wikileaks scandal, it exposes which countries are vassals to US.
  - tankenmate 13y ago
    Which is information that Bolivia and Venezuela would like to have hard confirmation of. EDIT: it also gives a good indication of the US's reaction times to such over flights.

kkkaaa 13y ago

imagine the chinese would force Obama to land in Bolivia because they think he is carrying Ai Weiwei.

cskau 13y ago
The Extradition Treaties states that one of the many things you can be extradited for is "unlawful imprisonment". Realizing that, I figure the world community at large could request to have say Bush and/or Obama extradited for the things going on in Guantanamo. Of course they might object that these fellows enjoy diplomatic immunity and that it's completely ludicrous. But if this incident has shown us anything I believe it's that US & Friends really don't care much about such minor details.

camus 13y ago

That tells a lot about all these European countries that are just puppets of the US government,especially France where I come from... Maybe we should stop the hypocrisy and let Washington govern us directly, we could save a lot of money this way.

petercooper 13y ago
This was actually briefly discussed between the UK and US in the 70s: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wilson-wanted-uk-to-be-us-state-1075874.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wilson-wanted-uk-to-be-us-...
- mtgx 13y ago
  That's funny, going from wanting to be the US' "51st state" to not even wanting to be a full EU member, which I think makes a lot more sense (to be one).
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    In general..... The anti EU people in the UK see the EU as socialist, liberal and left wing. The anti EU people in the UK are...... you guessed it... right wing. Fairly extreme right in UK terms, but probably still left wing by US standards. So, for them, the US is an aspiration further right. IMHO, the EU makes total sense, even if there are many problems with it, and even the US government have urged the UK to get more in to Europe and stop antagonizing it. Partly I think the US likes having the UK as a gateway to Europe. I just wish we in the UK got more out of that deal than we do, like equality and fairness in our deals. Right now, despite my criticism of the US, I'd prefer to be a 51st state, since we'd Brits would no longer have no rights over US excesses. We could sue "our" government, or what ever Americans do!!! Ah, nonsense of course, we need to get on in Europe better.
    - mtgx 13y ago
      But why do you think you'd do any better than Americans right now? From what I can tell, it's even worse in UK with GCHQ and with all the cameras and whatnot, and people have "gotten used to it".

nsns 13y ago

Did the US just facilitate Snowden's asylum? They seem to be locked in eternal overreach.

phyalow 13y ago
Yeah tell that to Kim Dotcom. The US seemingly have no respect for sovereignty or foreign process.
- vidarh 13y ago
  In both cases they seem to be overplaying their hand. Dotcom has a very real chance of getting off largely because the way it was handled have included such blatant disregard for the law. E.g. without the revelations of illegal spying, and the massive overkill of the way his arrest was handled, it might have been a lot easier to gentle "suggest" things to a judge and make the whole thing go away. Instead they've ensured that it's really hard for the judges involved to not treat this seriously. Same with Snowden - creating a diplomatic incident that now has pretty much every Latin American leader screaming bloody murder and have officials describing it as virtually a kidnapping, and complaining about colonialism, means European countries and others will quickly start seeing that there's a very high potential price to pay for bending to US demands in this, in a case where they likely have little sympathy to the US position in the first place given that pretty much all of them have faced revelations of US spying targeting them. If the US keeps pushing like that, they might just find that someone will snap and decide to tell them to go to hell. It'll be interesting to see if they manage the balancing act of pushing just hard enough to keep everyone in line without pushing anyone too far.
omegant 13y ago
They don't seem to be handling this very intelligently, more like a bully than anything else. It would be much easier to let Snowden get to a country in southamerica and then after some weeks press under the table to get him arrested. Now doing all this pressing all they get is Snowden in China or Russia's arms.
- mattvot 13y ago

mtgx 13y ago

A funny comment I picked up from Reddit: > "Bolivia should cut all cocaine exports to the US, and push Colombia to do the same, within a week you would see all US politicians panicking and killing each others trying to check first into rehab"

tptacek 13y ago
That's funny because, what, all US politicians use cocaine?
- eliasmacpherson 13y ago
  Table B.7 Cocaine Use in Past Year, by Age Group and State: Percentages, Annual Averages Based on 2006 and 2007 NSDUHs District of Columbia 5.10 [1] DC out in front by more than a nose, historically too. Probably not just politicians at the trough though. [1] http://oas.samhsa.gov/2k7state/AppB.htm#TabB-1 http://oas.samhsa.gov/2k7state/AppB.htm#TabB-1
  - contacternst 13y ago
    Judging by the demographics of DC... I suspect the vast majority of that cocaine is crack.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

RivieraKid 13y ago

I wonder what would happen if the plane simply refused to leave Spain's or France's air space and continued on their flight.

mossplix 13y ago
miltary escort
- RivieraKid 13y ago
  elaborate please
RivieraKid 13y ago
Reason for two downvotes?

shell0x 13y ago

It's sad to see that France and Portugal go this way. No one should support the government of the United Shit of America, especially when you know they are spying on you.

tcoppi 13y ago

AP is now reporting that France didn't block the plane: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_NSA_SURVEILLANCE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-07-03-06-11-50 http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_NSA_SURVEILLANCE?S...

wslh 13y ago

Spreading a rumour like this is a good way to assess yourself about friends and enemies waiting for the real "implementation".

tome 13y ago

Is it usual to ask planes carrying criminal suspects to be forced to land?

haakon 13y ago
Nothing is "usual" about the Snowden situation, anyway.
- tome 13y ago
  I'm trying to gauge whether this is a genuinely strange situation by the standards of international policing.
  - jonknee 13y ago
    Yes, it's unprecedented to stop and frisk a world leader on suspicion of someone on board.
muyuu 13y ago
It was not forced to land directly, they were denied entry to airspace and they had to land to refuel, unable to reroute within their fuel limits.

stfu 13y ago

Question: Wouldn't it be super easy to check a private plane for how many passengers are on board? Just watching the passengers board with a thermographic camera should do the trick.

ig1 13y ago
It would probably be an illegal search in violation of diplomatic immunity. (airports aren't allowed to scan diplomatic pouches)
- stfu 13y ago
  I'm sure there is some obscure aviation security policy that makes this a maintenance requirement...

ImprovedSilence 13y ago

Why are there no news reporters just "traveling" the same airport as Snowden, Reporting on the situation and taking new pics. I can't be that easy to hide in an airport, and it can't be that hard to wander around an international airport for awhile when waiting for a long layover... something about the reason we haven't had any of that kind of reporting smells pretty fishy to me... also, how many CIA agents do you think have "traveled" through that airport in the past few days, keeping tabs on things...?