7 ms·

"It's not like people see our $50,000 a year and think 'Hey, I want a piece of that pie.' They'd much rather look towards things like Minecraft, where there are

by axefrog 13y ago

"It's not like people see our $50,000 a year and think 'Hey, I want a piece of that pie.' They'd much rather look towards things like Minecraft, where there are hundreds of millions of dollars." The brothers have this massive, massive blindspot regarding the importance of the UI. That $50,000 cap they perceive is barely scratching the surface of what would be possible for them if they made the damn thing a bit more accessible to the average person. It's great that their small niche base loves ASCII art and doesn't mind fumbling their way through a hostile interface in order to play the game, but that is the primary reason the game stays confined within a tiny niche corner of the gaming market. They have the real possibility that if they did that seed work, even just on exposing an API into the game, as opposed to venturing into a full-on UI overhaul, that enough new people would be introduced to the game that they could hire a third developer to focus specifically on the API and UI aspects of the game, leaving them free to keep working on the bits they love.

kaoD 13y ago
It's not the ASCII interface. I love ASCII art, and they managed to pull a high information density. You have graphic tile sets too. Although fan-made, these have a great quality. The problem is the inconsistent input system. The same task uses different shortcuts in each menu, which makes it hard to remember. Even selecting rectangular regions of the world is done in a particular way depending on what you are doing. Inconsistency is awful for users.
- imdsm 13y ago
  But the thing is, you get over that. Would I trade some of the depth of features for a better interface? No. Would I make the combat arcade-like in return for a better interface? No. I play the game for the fact that it is infinitely replayable. I play it so much that the menu is now ingrained into my very being. If the interface was to change, it would confuse me. It would take a lot of getting use to. It could work out better in the future, but right now, it at least works. Everyone who plays it has different parts they like and dislike. Personally, I'd love it to have a nice API, so I didn't have to go through DFHack for every util I want to write. I'd pick that over a new UI. Sure, it's inconsistent, but the inconsistency is consistent. I'll take that.
  - axefrog 13y ago
    That's good for you, but you ran the gauntlet (the UI) and earned the level of comfort you now have with it. Just because you're one of the brave (and extremely patient and persistent) souls who have done so, does not mean that having to do so is a good thing, or is not a significant barrier to others.
  - ef4 13y ago
    > Would I trade some of the depth of features for a better interface? But that's really not the tradeoff. A more consistent interface takes less total time to write and maintain than one that has one-offs for every situation. Inconsistency makes future development slower. And we only see the tip of the interface iceberg. I find it highly unlikely that the internal interfaces between components are any better. Everything about Dwarf Fortress gives the impression that their source code is probably a nightmare. Which doesn't matter, of course, so long as it runs -- until you want new features and progress grinds down to a crawl.
robbiep 13y ago
You are, of course, totally right. But do you know much about dwarf fortress? The brothers have responded to questions about this a number of times (regarding UI) but more importantly than that, it appears that they don't particuarly care about making the big bucks. They are totally happy just pottering along with a loyal hardcore following, earning a very middle class salary, doing something they are massively passionate about. In fact, it seems that what they have is all they ever want in life. They are in their nirvana. Good for them!
- axefrog 13y ago
  I don't disagree with you. I think I'm just bitter because I hate bad UIs and it stops me from properly exploring the game. I don't understand why they don't care about the fact that so many people will never experience their creation because of the unnecessary barrier they've created.
  - mushishi 13y ago
    Haven't been following much of Dwarf Fortress, either, but according to the post, I'm confident that they care. For instance, the 1.0 version should have a more consistent interface, tutorials and context-sensitive help menus. It's probably just that there are plenty more things that they care more about than revamping totally the UI.
    - FreezerburnV 13y ago
      I understand they're working on the game out of passion, but I feel like they should bite the bullet and spend a good chunk of one of their update cycles on the UI. I remember reading patch notes one time, where they literally re-wrote the entire damage system to account for more things. (swords don't do as much damage when wearing armor, maces cause bruises and broken bones through armor, etc.) It's not my project, and I don't want to sound entitled to something I can play for free, but I feel like they could take time away from simulating muscle fibers or something ridiculously detailed such as that, and make the game more easily playable. It honestly still feels like the debug interface a developer might put into a game with all the odd keys you have to press to activate one thing or another. That said, they can work on what they want, as they're the developers. And they're providing the game free of charge to anyone who wants to play it. It's just a nice pipe dream of mine to be able to play the game without spending a month learning how to navigate the menus :)
VLM 13y ago
(Just having fun analogy time as I wake up, once I got rollin it just kinda got outta control) I don't actually use C++, not since about 2005 anyway, but like many on HN that won't stop expressing strong opinions on the UI. The semicolons dripping everywhere are a massive UI problem. Makes it look like a Perl obfuscation competition. A modern language like Intercal does not use semicolons, well, not as much. They need to get with the program and use UTF-8 so I can program in my native Klingon. I'm sure this Stroustrup character likes his language very much, thank you, but he could make a heck of lot more money, for a lot longer, if he replaced the UI with something a little more modern and polished, like a mobile iphone app where you can end your statement lines with pink hearts and smiley faces. And C++ needs social networking and multiplayer. C++ also has a horribly inconsistent UI, look at these two ways to add one: blah = blah + 1; vs blah++; How is the average noob off the street supposed to handle inconsistency? There should only be one way to do it; just like sex. And don't get me started on those Perl heathens. Its just a hostile UI and C++ would be more accessible to the average person with a better UI. Because the only people who matter are the average people, F those outliers. That's nice that some people have buckled down and learned all the peculiarities of the existing C++ UI, but we'll just have to abandon them with our "improvements". I have Stroustrup's latest edition of C++ and its bigger than my metro area phone book, which is far too long compared to the copy of K+R I got in 1983 or so which was so small it was mistaken for a copy of readers digest. Heck even "Modern Perl" sitting on my desk right now is only 280 pages in dead tree form. Niches are inherently bad and we should all want to either conform or dominate those who conform, so its inherently, of itself, bad, if only a fraction of the population "gets" what they're doing. Just like art and music! Quantity has a quality all its own. Can't they just watch football like normal guys? I mean ten trillion horseflies can't all be wrong, or however that goes.
papsosouid 13y ago
>The brothers have this massive, massive blindspot regarding the importance of the UI. No they don't. They keep saying over and over again that they know the UI is bad, and they know it drives away potential players. They said it right in this very article even. I am always amazed at how many people are so desperate to tell others how to run their affairs that they invent false ignorance in others so they can step in and tell them how to do things.

by axefrog 13y ago

kaoD 13y ago

It's not the ASCII interface. I love ASCII art, and they managed to pull a high information density. You have graphic tile sets too. Although fan-made, these have a great quality. The problem is the inconsistent input system. The same task uses different shortcuts in each menu, which makes it hard to remember. Even selecting rectangular regions of the world is done in a particular way depending on what you are doing. Inconsistency is awful for users.

imdsm 13y ago
But the thing is, you get over that. Would I trade some of the depth of features for a better interface? No. Would I make the combat arcade-like in return for a better interface? No. I play the game for the fact that it is infinitely replayable. I play it so much that the menu is now ingrained into my very being. If the interface was to change, it would confuse me. It would take a lot of getting use to. It could work out better in the future, but right now, it at least works. Everyone who plays it has different parts they like and dislike. Personally, I'd love it to have a nice API, so I didn't have to go through DFHack for every util I want to write. I'd pick that over a new UI. Sure, it's inconsistent, but the inconsistency is consistent. I'll take that.
- axefrog 13y ago
  That's good for you, but you ran the gauntlet (the UI) and earned the level of comfort you now have with it. Just because you're one of the brave (and extremely patient and persistent) souls who have done so, does not mean that having to do so is a good thing, or is not a significant barrier to others.
- ef4 13y ago
  > Would I trade some of the depth of features for a better interface? But that's really not the tradeoff. A more consistent interface takes less total time to write and maintain than one that has one-offs for every situation. Inconsistency makes future development slower. And we only see the tip of the interface iceberg. I find it highly unlikely that the internal interfaces between components are any better. Everything about Dwarf Fortress gives the impression that their source code is probably a nightmare. Which doesn't matter, of course, so long as it runs -- until you want new features and progress grinds down to a crawl.

robbiep 13y ago

You are, of course, totally right. But do you know much about dwarf fortress? The brothers have responded to questions about this a number of times (regarding UI) but more importantly than that, it appears that they don't particuarly care about making the big bucks. They are totally happy just pottering along with a loyal hardcore following, earning a very middle class salary, doing something they are massively passionate about. In fact, it seems that what they have is all they ever want in life. They are in their nirvana. Good for them!

axefrog 13y ago
I don't disagree with you. I think I'm just bitter because I hate bad UIs and it stops me from properly exploring the game. I don't understand why they don't care about the fact that so many people will never experience their creation because of the unnecessary barrier they've created.
- mushishi 13y ago
  Haven't been following much of Dwarf Fortress, either, but according to the post, I'm confident that they care. For instance, the 1.0 version should have a more consistent interface, tutorials and context-sensitive help menus. It's probably just that there are plenty more things that they care more about than revamping totally the UI.
  - FreezerburnV 13y ago
    I understand they're working on the game out of passion, but I feel like they should bite the bullet and spend a good chunk of one of their update cycles on the UI. I remember reading patch notes one time, where they literally re-wrote the entire damage system to account for more things. (swords don't do as much damage when wearing armor, maces cause bruises and broken bones through armor, etc.) It's not my project, and I don't want to sound entitled to something I can play for free, but I feel like they could take time away from simulating muscle fibers or something ridiculously detailed such as that, and make the game more easily playable. It honestly still feels like the debug interface a developer might put into a game with all the odd keys you have to press to activate one thing or another. That said, they can work on what they want, as they're the developers. And they're providing the game free of charge to anyone who wants to play it. It's just a nice pipe dream of mine to be able to play the game without spending a month learning how to navigate the menus :)

VLM 13y ago

(Just having fun analogy time as I wake up, once I got rollin it just kinda got outta control) I don't actually use C++, not since about 2005 anyway, but like many on HN that won't stop expressing strong opinions on the UI. The semicolons dripping everywhere are a massive UI problem. Makes it look like a Perl obfuscation competition. A modern language like Intercal does not use semicolons, well, not as much. They need to get with the program and use UTF-8 so I can program in my native Klingon. I'm sure this Stroustrup character likes his language very much, thank you, but he could make a heck of lot more money, for a lot longer, if he replaced the UI with something a little more modern and polished, like a mobile iphone app where you can end your statement lines with pink hearts and smiley faces. And C++ needs social networking and multiplayer. C++ also has a horribly inconsistent UI, look at these two ways to add one: blah = blah + 1; vs blah++; How is the average noob off the street supposed to handle inconsistency? There should only be one way to do it; just like sex. And don't get me started on those Perl heathens. Its just a hostile UI and C++ would be more accessible to the average person with a better UI. Because the only people who matter are the average people, F those outliers. That's nice that some people have buckled down and learned all the peculiarities of the existing C++ UI, but we'll just have to abandon them with our "improvements". I have Stroustrup's latest edition of C++ and its bigger than my metro area phone book, which is far too long compared to the copy of K+R I got in 1983 or so which was so small it was mistaken for a copy of readers digest. Heck even "Modern Perl" sitting on my desk right now is only 280 pages in dead tree form. Niches are inherently bad and we should all want to either conform or dominate those who conform, so its inherently, of itself, bad, if only a fraction of the population "gets" what they're doing. Just like art and music! Quantity has a quality all its own. Can't they just watch football like normal guys? I mean ten trillion horseflies can't all be wrong, or however that goes.

papsosouid 13y ago

>The brothers have this massive, massive blindspot regarding the importance of the UI. No they don't. They keep saying over and over again that they know the UI is bad, and they know it drives away potential players. They said it right in this very article even. I am always amazed at how many people are so desperate to tell others how to run their affairs that they invent false ignorance in others so they can step in and tell them how to do things.