4 ms·

I agree with your statement of selection bias. For a good recent read on this subject, I'd suggest Foreign Policy: New Flash, States Spy on Each Other http://w

by ghayes 13y ago

I agree with your statement of selection bias. For a good recent read on this subject, I'd suggest Foreign Policy: New Flash, States Spy on Each Other http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/07/01/news_flash_states_spy_on_each_other http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/07/01/news_flash_st...

chronic25 13y ago
Cool
ignostic 13y ago
I do too, but... this is a good reason not to bug allies. You make everyone paranoid if it's discovered.
- jmduke 13y ago
  The point is that allies are aware they're being bugged. It's just an accepted truth.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    The public of our allies don't really...these publics ultimately decide whether we are allies or not.
    - nnq 13y ago
      when was the last time when a country's foreign policy was actually influenced by its people in a democratic way? besides go / don't go to war or foreign investments policies, I doubt most people have any clue about their "democratic" country's fp ... I know I don't, and if I'd dig into it more, I'd probably get so disgusted by the international ass kissing networks that I'd wanna puke...
      - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        Goto Switzerland, they vote on everything.
rtpg 13y ago
The strangest thing about recent leaks is how people are shocked that the NSA spies on foreign countries. What are they supposed to be doing?
- insuffi 13y ago
  That is not why the people are shocked. The general mass is shocked(especially foreigners, of course) or rather annoyed about the moral high ground US always seems to take("Chinese are hacking us, we're not hacking them") to which it doesn't own up to.
- malandrew 13y ago
  The biggest difference between the spying in the past and the spying today is that most effective spying usually involved HUMINT. You had to get someone with access to a secure location to go in there and bug the place or you needed a mole on the inside leaking information to you. Today we have an Internet infrastructure that for all intents and purposes is centralized in the US. Lots of network collections pass through the US and many commonly used service providers are in the US. HUMINT is now a lot less important because SIGINT became much much much easier. However abusing the current system for the sake of SIGINT comes at the cost of trust in the current system and architecture. There will be an economic penalty paid by the US of this abuse of trust. At the very least, we're now in a much weaker position to negotiate with the rest of the world when internet governance issues (ICANN for example) come up for discussion.
- coldtea 13y ago
  They are supposed to do it for national security reasons (hence the name, one would presume). On actual enemies or potential enemies. Spying on EU politicians, corporations, trade negotiations and such is not that. It's using spying to get a leverage and exploit/blackmail/bride/take advantage of other countries. Except if you redefine "national security" to mean: each and every way a country can exploit and fuck with other countries.
- Nursie 13y ago
  I'm not shocked. I'm outraged, but it's been obvious that this stuff has been going on for many years. If you didn't know you weren't paying attention.
dfc 13y ago
If anyone wants to read that FP article without registering at FP you can bypass the register screen by selecting "View -> Page Style -> No Page Style" in iceweasel. I apologize I do not know the equivalent function in chromium. I used to enjoy reading Tom Ricks Best Defense blog at FP but I stopped reading it once they introduced that monstrosity.
- Amadou 13y ago
  Apparently blocking javascript also lets you read the article - in nicely formatted fashion too. I had not even realized FP had made such a change, I would have stopped reading it if I had run into that roadblock too. Tecently there have been some misguided statements in the comments on HN that javascript is a requirement for the web and that it is reasonable for designers to always expect its presence. When those designers fail like this - the crap is gone but the important stuff still works great, I think to myself maybe it isn't so misguided. Maybe two wrongs do make a right.

by ghayes 13y ago

chronic25 13y ago

Cool

ignostic 13y ago

I do too, but... this is a good reason not to bug allies. You make everyone paranoid if it's discovered.

jmduke 13y ago
The point is that allies are aware they're being bugged. It's just an accepted truth.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  The public of our allies don't really...these publics ultimately decide whether we are allies or not.
  - nnq 13y ago
    when was the last time when a country's foreign policy was actually influenced by its people in a democratic way? besides go / don't go to war or foreign investments policies, I doubt most people have any clue about their "democratic" country's fp ... I know I don't, and if I'd dig into it more, I'd probably get so disgusted by the international ass kissing networks that I'd wanna puke...
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      Goto Switzerland, they vote on everything.

rtpg 13y ago

The strangest thing about recent leaks is how people are shocked that the NSA spies on foreign countries. What are they supposed to be doing?

insuffi 13y ago
That is not why the people are shocked. The general mass is shocked(especially foreigners, of course) or rather annoyed about the moral high ground US always seems to take("Chinese are hacking us, we're not hacking them") to which it doesn't own up to.
malandrew 13y ago
The biggest difference between the spying in the past and the spying today is that most effective spying usually involved HUMINT. You had to get someone with access to a secure location to go in there and bug the place or you needed a mole on the inside leaking information to you. Today we have an Internet infrastructure that for all intents and purposes is centralized in the US. Lots of network collections pass through the US and many commonly used service providers are in the US. HUMINT is now a lot less important because SIGINT became much much much easier. However abusing the current system for the sake of SIGINT comes at the cost of trust in the current system and architecture. There will be an economic penalty paid by the US of this abuse of trust. At the very least, we're now in a much weaker position to negotiate with the rest of the world when internet governance issues (ICANN for example) come up for discussion.
coldtea 13y ago
They are supposed to do it for national security reasons (hence the name, one would presume). On actual enemies or potential enemies. Spying on EU politicians, corporations, trade negotiations and such is not that. It's using spying to get a leverage and exploit/blackmail/bride/take advantage of other countries. Except if you redefine "national security" to mean: each and every way a country can exploit and fuck with other countries.
Nursie 13y ago
I'm not shocked. I'm outraged, but it's been obvious that this stuff has been going on for many years. If you didn't know you weren't paying attention.

dfc 13y ago

If anyone wants to read that FP article without registering at FP you can bypass the register screen by selecting "View -> Page Style -> No Page Style" in iceweasel. I apologize I do not know the equivalent function in chromium. I used to enjoy reading Tom Ricks Best Defense blog at FP but I stopped reading it once they introduced that monstrosity.

Amadou 13y ago
Apparently blocking javascript also lets you read the article - in nicely formatted fashion too. I had not even realized FP had made such a change, I would have stopped reading it if I had run into that roadblock too. Tecently there have been some misguided statements in the comments on HN that javascript is a requirement for the web and that it is reasonable for designers to always expect its presence. When those designers fail like this - the crap is gone but the important stuff still works great, I think to myself maybe it isn't so misguided. Maybe two wrongs do make a right.