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Yeah, we really don't know. But I'm extremely uncomfortable by the fact that foul play is a real possibility. We already know that the federal government is ope

Yeah, we really don't know. But I'm extremely uncomfortable by the fact that foul play is a real possibility. We already know that the federal government is operating largely in secret and without regard to the law (their insistence that are indeed following their own secret set of laws doesn't provide me much solace). We already know that various press organizations have been wiretapped. I feel like I've woken up into a country I no longer recognize. How long will it be before people no longer feel safe expressing opinions online?

ForrestN 13y ago
I definitely already feel some sense of pause. I remember reading this article when it came out; does anyone know if there have been any further developments in the case?
snowwrestler 13y ago
Foul play is always a possibility, but it takes evidence to make it real. All we have now is a car crash, a reporter working on a story, and an email. There are lots of car crashes, and lots of reporters working on big stories--many on the same stories Hastings was pursuing. We can't rule out foul play but I'm not ready, personally, to rule it in either. There's just not enough there.
- TechNewb 13y ago
  Is it known what story he was pursuing?
  - LoganCale 13y ago
    The subject of his email was "FBI Investigation, re: NSA". Don't know if the investigation is the same as his big story, however.
    - TechNewb 13y ago
      Wonder if his notes could be found, I imagine they would have been cloud backed.
      - dllthomas 13y ago
        "I imagine they would have been cloud backed." Of course they were; that's how the NSA found out.
      - TechNewb 13y ago
        @dllthomas "Of course they were; that's how the NSA found out." Right. Yet to our knowledge the NSA does not have delete privileges to the data centers, meaning that copies of his notes most likely still survive on either local or cloud based storage.
        jlgaddis 13y ago
        Depends on whether his e-mail was hosted by Google or not. ;)
        woah 13y ago
        Yet to our knowledge, the NSA doesn't have read access... until they did a few weeks ago.
      - sitkack 13y ago
        Ask the NSA for a copy?
        flyinRyan 13y ago
        I wouldn't do that unless you have a really old car with no electronics to drive.
  - snowwrestler 13y ago
    I believe Ben Smith said it was about Barrett Brown.
skwirl 13y ago
It is a huge leap from the revelations of late and a world where the government goes around killing journalists. When your parents confided to you that Santa Claus wasn't real, you didn't suddenly become adopted too. Chill out and reacquaint with reality.
- jychang 13y ago
  You completely misread the point. We don't know the truth, if it was foul play or not. Probably not. BUT, it doesn't matter about the size of the jump, yet the fact that it's even a POSSIBILITY THAT WE HAVE TO CONSIDER ... is scary. Plus, it's not as large of a leap as you think, it goes hand in hand. Everyone is familiar with journalists disappearing in countries like Turkey.
  - saalweachter 13y ago
    Yeah, but the thing is, governments -- and individuals within governments -- don't have to be super secret ninjas. They can be heavy handed and get away with it because they've got power and you don't. The US sent helicopters full of Navy Seals into a foreign country, supposedly an ally, without their permission to kill someone, and then went on TV the next day to brag about it. George W Bush threw hundreds of people into a not-very-secret off-shore prison and then tortured them for a few years and no one did a damn thing about it. When Bradley Manning leaked diplomatic cables, we threw him in a prison and tortured him for a year or three, depending on how you count. Governments don't have to come in the night and fake your accidental death. They can come for you in broad daylight and beat you to death in the street and no one will stop them.
    - ekianjo 13y ago
      Are you saying governments don't do anything secret, because they don't have to ? Well, you are surely misguided. Tons of governmental operations are clearly not happening in the open. And it wouldn't be the first time they make an assassination pass for an accident (or suicide, or whatever other "natural" event). Even "democracies" do that all the time.
  - 13y ago
anigbrowl 13y ago
the federal government is operating largely in secret having lots of secret activities != operating largely in secret.
samstave 13y ago
Did you guys see the 16 page PDF detailing remote auto take-over? Some are speculating that his car was remotely controlled via this method or tampered with such that his breaks failed. If you haven't seen that PDF, ill to find the link.
- ims 13y ago
  > Some are speculating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
  - samstave 13y ago
    Get over yourself, seriously. I say "some are speculating" because there are a bunch on Reddit, I.e. some people, who I do not know personally, and have handles as opposed to real-names, so I cannot say "Bill, John and Mary speculate" So, as I am not using the weasel word in the way you describe (as if I were to say "a source close to the crash victim") -- the terminology is still valid in common dialogue.
- tzs 13y ago
  Assassination by remote controlling the target's car is a Wile E. Coyote level plan. It's hard to imagine any remotely competent government group or organized crime group choosing it. Given the nature of his work, there are much easier methods that would be less work to carry out, have much lower risk of failure, and have much lower risk of leaving behind evidence that might raise suspicion or lead back to those responsible.
  - samstave 13y ago
    http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-usenixsec2011.pdf http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-usenixsec2011.pdf Check this out and look at the source as well as take some time to critically think about the technical resources a group like the NSA has vs. the researchers of this paper... You think that "It's hard to imagine any remotely competent government group or organized crime group" choosing it" is an informed position? I would HOPE you are aware of Stucnet, as well as Duqu... Do you recall this: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/01/201211162848691713.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/01/20121116284... This was supposedly the work of the USG/Mossad in Iran. If you think that they would use lowly tactics like a magnetic car bomb -- but would be "too competent" to employ remote hijacking of a late model car, then I simply cannot agree with you on this matter.
CPAhem 13y ago
The truth is that we'll never know. Maybe in 10 years some whistleblower will come out and admit, but probably not. The way Snowden is being treated you'd have to be crazy to do it now...
nhebb 13y ago
> How long will it be before people no longer feel safe expressing opinions online? Since about three months ago: http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/07/01/197669495/texas-teen-jailed-for-sarcastic-facebook-comment http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/07/01/197669...
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  Wow, avoided the airport because of this kind of insanity? We brought it to your house! I remember just a few short months ago, making fun of the British for arresting someone for tweeting...
Taylorious 13y ago
Foul play is almost always a possibility if you over analyze things and don't have a lot evidence. If someone randomly kills them self by jumping off a bridge and no one sees it happen, there is no suicide note, or any other signs, then there could have been foul play because there is no evidence to prove or disprove it. For all anyone knows the person was pushed off the bridge by a passer by. The whole NSA story is disturbing but I don't get how it is connected to a journalist dying in a car crash like 30k or so people do every year do in the USA. The NSA violating peoples internet/phone privacy is a far cry from killing journalists. It is baffling that a story where there is so little evidence of foul play has popped up on HN multiple times and has received such wild speculation. I get that there are a lot of people who are very upset at the US government right now (I'm one of them) and that there is very title trust towards the US government (for good reason), but it is crazy that such wild speculation is going on in a community that is supposedly made up of highly educated, intelligent, logical, tech people. 1. Why is it practically impossible to crash this car? Its well engineered, yeah so what? Accidents still happen no matter how good the safety tech is. 2. Why is it impossible for a car to catch fire after it has been in a high speed crash? It is filled with a highly combustible liquid for Christ sake. 3. Why would his car get hacked into and forced to crash? There has to be about a million easier ways to make a death look like an accident. It also doesn't seem like something that could be done at the spur of the moment. If "they" had time to plan all of this out, why wouldn't they kill him some easier, safer, more efficient way? 4. Why are people saying he may have been drugged with something that causes a psychotic episode etc. I mean really WTF, this is straight up crazy conspiracy nonsense. Of all the crazy conclusions to jump to, why is that more likely than him being drunk, having a psychotic breakdown, insomnia, or using drugs voluntarily (I believe he was even a drug addict in the past, lots of addicts fall of the wagon). 5. Why do people automatically assume that he was actually being investigated by some government organization? Don't all we have is his word?
- smoyer 13y ago
  And suddenly the conspiracy theorists are wondering if Taylorious works for the NSA ;) Your points are well organized and I tend to agree (especially that there would be an easier way to get rid of him), but I don't think you'll stop those that see a conspiracy around every corner. I tend to see our government (today) as a very mismanaged large corporation. There are people over-reaching and those above them are trying to hide the damage and spin the conversation.
logn 13y ago
> I feel like I've woken up into a country I no longer recognize. I've seriously thought about moving to New Zealand. Beautiful country, no software patents, universal healthcare, good schools. I think maybe the era of the US being the best place to be (or at least many people thinking that) is over.
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  I think that era was actually over decades ago. It's just that thanks to the internet, Americans (like me) are beginning to realize it.

ForrestN 13y ago

I definitely already feel some sense of pause. I remember reading this article when it came out; does anyone know if there have been any further developments in the case?

snowwrestler 13y ago

Foul play is always a possibility, but it takes evidence to make it real. All we have now is a car crash, a reporter working on a story, and an email. There are lots of car crashes, and lots of reporters working on big stories--many on the same stories Hastings was pursuing. We can't rule out foul play but I'm not ready, personally, to rule it in either. There's just not enough there.

TechNewb 13y ago
Is it known what story he was pursuing?
- LoganCale 13y ago
  The subject of his email was "FBI Investigation, re: NSA". Don't know if the investigation is the same as his big story, however.
  - TechNewb 13y ago
    Wonder if his notes could be found, I imagine they would have been cloud backed.
    - dllthomas 13y ago
      "I imagine they would have been cloud backed." Of course they were; that's how the NSA found out.
    - TechNewb 13y ago
      @dllthomas "Of course they were; that's how the NSA found out." Right. Yet to our knowledge the NSA does not have delete privileges to the data centers, meaning that copies of his notes most likely still survive on either local or cloud based storage.
      - jlgaddis 13y ago
        Depends on whether his e-mail was hosted by Google or not. ;)
      - woah 13y ago
        Yet to our knowledge, the NSA doesn't have read access... until they did a few weeks ago.
    - sitkack 13y ago
      Ask the NSA for a copy?
      - flyinRyan 13y ago
        I wouldn't do that unless you have a really old car with no electronics to drive.
- snowwrestler 13y ago
  I believe Ben Smith said it was about Barrett Brown.

skwirl 13y ago

It is a huge leap from the revelations of late and a world where the government goes around killing journalists. When your parents confided to you that Santa Claus wasn't real, you didn't suddenly become adopted too. Chill out and reacquaint with reality.

jychang 13y ago
You completely misread the point. We don't know the truth, if it was foul play or not. Probably not. BUT, it doesn't matter about the size of the jump, yet the fact that it's even a POSSIBILITY THAT WE HAVE TO CONSIDER ... is scary. Plus, it's not as large of a leap as you think, it goes hand in hand. Everyone is familiar with journalists disappearing in countries like Turkey.
- saalweachter 13y ago
  Yeah, but the thing is, governments -- and individuals within governments -- don't have to be super secret ninjas. They can be heavy handed and get away with it because they've got power and you don't. The US sent helicopters full of Navy Seals into a foreign country, supposedly an ally, without their permission to kill someone, and then went on TV the next day to brag about it. George W Bush threw hundreds of people into a not-very-secret off-shore prison and then tortured them for a few years and no one did a damn thing about it. When Bradley Manning leaked diplomatic cables, we threw him in a prison and tortured him for a year or three, depending on how you count. Governments don't have to come in the night and fake your accidental death. They can come for you in broad daylight and beat you to death in the street and no one will stop them.
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    Are you saying governments don't do anything secret, because they don't have to ? Well, you are surely misguided. Tons of governmental operations are clearly not happening in the open. And it wouldn't be the first time they make an assassination pass for an accident (or suicide, or whatever other "natural" event). Even "democracies" do that all the time.
- 13y ago

anigbrowl 13y ago

the federal government is operating largely in secret having lots of secret activities != operating largely in secret.

samstave 13y ago

Did you guys see the 16 page PDF detailing remote auto take-over? Some are speculating that his car was remotely controlled via this method or tampered with such that his breaks failed. If you haven't seen that PDF, ill to find the link.

ims 13y ago
> Some are speculating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
- samstave 13y ago
  Get over yourself, seriously. I say "some are speculating" because there are a bunch on Reddit, I.e. some people, who I do not know personally, and have handles as opposed to real-names, so I cannot say "Bill, John and Mary speculate" So, as I am not using the weasel word in the way you describe (as if I were to say "a source close to the crash victim") -- the terminology is still valid in common dialogue.
tzs 13y ago
Assassination by remote controlling the target's car is a Wile E. Coyote level plan. It's hard to imagine any remotely competent government group or organized crime group choosing it. Given the nature of his work, there are much easier methods that would be less work to carry out, have much lower risk of failure, and have much lower risk of leaving behind evidence that might raise suspicion or lead back to those responsible.
- samstave 13y ago
  http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-usenixsec2011.pdf http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-usenixsec2011.pdf Check this out and look at the source as well as take some time to critically think about the technical resources a group like the NSA has vs. the researchers of this paper... You think that "It's hard to imagine any remotely competent government group or organized crime group" choosing it" is an informed position? I would HOPE you are aware of Stucnet, as well as Duqu... Do you recall this: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/01/201211162848691713.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/01/20121116284... This was supposedly the work of the USG/Mossad in Iran. If you think that they would use lowly tactics like a magnetic car bomb -- but would be "too competent" to employ remote hijacking of a late model car, then I simply cannot agree with you on this matter.

CPAhem 13y ago

The truth is that we'll never know. Maybe in 10 years some whistleblower will come out and admit, but probably not. The way Snowden is being treated you'd have to be crazy to do it now...

nhebb 13y ago

> How long will it be before people no longer feel safe expressing opinions online? Since about three months ago: http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/07/01/197669495/texas-teen-jailed-for-sarcastic-facebook-comment http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/07/01/197669...

flyinRyan 13y ago
Wow, avoided the airport because of this kind of insanity? We brought it to your house! I remember just a few short months ago, making fun of the British for arresting someone for tweeting...

Taylorious 13y ago

Foul play is almost always a possibility if you over analyze things and don't have a lot evidence. If someone randomly kills them self by jumping off a bridge and no one sees it happen, there is no suicide note, or any other signs, then there could have been foul play because there is no evidence to prove or disprove it. For all anyone knows the person was pushed off the bridge by a passer by. The whole NSA story is disturbing but I don't get how it is connected to a journalist dying in a car crash like 30k or so people do every year do in the USA. The NSA violating peoples internet/phone privacy is a far cry from killing journalists. It is baffling that a story where there is so little evidence of foul play has popped up on HN multiple times and has received such wild speculation. I get that there are a lot of people who are very upset at the US government right now (I'm one of them) and that there is very title trust towards the US government (for good reason), but it is crazy that such wild speculation is going on in a community that is supposedly made up of highly educated, intelligent, logical, tech people. 1. Why is it practically impossible to crash this car? Its well engineered, yeah so what? Accidents still happen no matter how good the safety tech is. 2. Why is it impossible for a car to catch fire after it has been in a high speed crash? It is filled with a highly combustible liquid for Christ sake. 3. Why would his car get hacked into and forced to crash? There has to be about a million easier ways to make a death look like an accident. It also doesn't seem like something that could be done at the spur of the moment. If "they" had time to plan all of this out, why wouldn't they kill him some easier, safer, more efficient way? 4. Why are people saying he may have been drugged with something that causes a psychotic episode etc. I mean really WTF, this is straight up crazy conspiracy nonsense. Of all the crazy conclusions to jump to, why is that more likely than him being drunk, having a psychotic breakdown, insomnia, or using drugs voluntarily (I believe he was even a drug addict in the past, lots of addicts fall of the wagon). 5. Why do people automatically assume that he was actually being investigated by some government organization? Don't all we have is his word?

smoyer 13y ago
And suddenly the conspiracy theorists are wondering if Taylorious works for the NSA ;) Your points are well organized and I tend to agree (especially that there would be an easier way to get rid of him), but I don't think you'll stop those that see a conspiracy around every corner. I tend to see our government (today) as a very mismanaged large corporation. There are people over-reaching and those above them are trying to hide the damage and spin the conversation.

logn 13y ago

> I feel like I've woken up into a country I no longer recognize. I've seriously thought about moving to New Zealand. Beautiful country, no software patents, universal healthcare, good schools. I think maybe the era of the US being the best place to be (or at least many people thinking that) is over.

flyinRyan 13y ago
I think that era was actually over decades ago. It's just that thanks to the internet, Americans (like me) are beginning to realize it.