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He _broke the law_ and is a fugitive from justice. He wouldn't be a hero if he wasn't risking consequences, and it should have been obvious from the start that

He _broke the law_ and is a fugitive from justice. He wouldn't be a hero if he wasn't risking consequences, and it should have been obvious from the start that he was going to be apprehended by the US eventually. EDIT: Also, the concept of "a human right to seek asylum" is meaningless. Asylum is a two-party arrangement. Is that a legal obligation for all nations to _grant_ asylum to seekers, regardless of circumstances?

lhnz 13y ago
Yes, he did break the law but it is absurd for you to use the word 'justice'. Justice: The quality of being fair and reasonable. He's not running away from something which is 'fair or reasonable', his human rights are in grave danger. He is a fugitive from injustice. I do not care whether he is a hero or not, but I do care about whether it was a right thing to do and whether he is treated as a human should be treated. These are principles worth upholding.
- mpyne 13y ago
  > He's not running away from something which is 'fair or reasonable', his human rights are in grave danger. How so? I mean this sincerely. What do you think will happen to him when he is arrested? There's no brig to throw him in, as he's a civilian. Snowden was very concerned about the lack of judicial oversight in what he saw with PRISM, so why would he assume that very same judicial system would mark him for special treatment when people like Hanssen, the Walker gang, and even Aaron Hernandez have not received such? If Snowden really felt beforehand that the civilian justice system was so completely inequitable it seems weird that he'd have been so insistent on its involvement elsewhere.
  - lhnz 13y ago
    >> If Snowden really felt beforehand that the civilian justice system was so completely inequitable it seems weird that he'd have been so insistent on its involvement elsewhere. The 'justice' system fulfils what power requires from it. It will be as inequitable with a trial as it has been with this whole fiasco.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      Then there was never a reason to involve the 'justice' system in surveillance measures at all, was there?
      - lhnz 13y ago
        Agreed. But I think underlying this is the thought that it would be good if there was an equitable justice system as opposed to an inequitable one.
        mpyne 13y ago
        Yes, that would be good. I suppose it is a pity there is no middle ground between those two possibilities.
      - e3pi 13y ago
        >Then there was never a reason to involve the 'justice' system in surveillance measures at all, was there? "...But Obama’s Justice Department, like Bush’s, has not been above an opportunistic (and occasionally downright Procrustean) reading of particular statutes to permit whatever it is that the White House wants to do." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5961518 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5961518
  - gaadd33 13y ago
    They could just hold him for years without a trial like what happened with Kevin Mitnick.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      Well... that was bad, but it was bad for different reasons. Mitnick himself waived his right to a speedy trial. The government swamped him and his court in so much shit that he'd have a difficult time preparing a proper defense otherwise. The flipside for Snowden is that at least it will count as time served so if he gets sentenced to more than 2 years it might actually be beneficial as I'd imagine you get to meet with your lawyers more often while prepping for trial.
    - zanny 13y ago
      This, the US gov't has plenty of backdoors and sleazy dealings to circumvent a speedy trial by ones peers. It is why most criminal sentences aren't heard by juries, because the system is rigged and intentionally bullies the accused into taking plea bargains.
- embolism 13y ago
  I am genuinely curious to know if there is a county whose judicial system could be used as a good example.
jlgreco 13y ago
If "being a hero" requires risk (which I disagree with), then whenever it is possible to take the actions of a hero without the associated risk then it in fact becomes preferred that people not be heroes. Nobody has an obligation to become a martyr; there is no obligation to seek out risk, or to not evade it. To your edit: See Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
- throwaway9848 13y ago
  To the UN document (which has dubious jurisdiction, but I'll play along): "Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution" Which is followed by: "This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations" Which negates your point, because of this: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20news/US-news-PDFs/Snowden-Complaint.pdf http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20new... I don't understand what your point is about the nature of heroism.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    > dubious jurisdiction The Universal Declaration of Human Rights has no jurisdiction, it is not a law... If you are confusing it for one, then I think you have some reading to do. > http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20new.. http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20new.... Most political charges are dressed up as non-political. Does this surprise you? > I don't understand what your point is about the nature of heroism If your intent for bringing up heroism was not to imply that he should be "brought to justice", "turn himself in", "should not have run", or any variation of those, then consider my point about the nature of heroism to be an aside.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      > Most political charges are dressed up as non-political. Does this surprise you? Snowden's own father says he broke the law... but he wasn't a traitor in doing so. But I don't believe the UDHR talks about treason in their exception request.
baddox 13y ago
> Is that a legal obligation for all nations to _grant_ asylum to seekers, regardless of circumstances? No, it's a legal obligation to not infringe on the right of people to seek and enjoy asylum. Of course, it's the UN, so it's debatable how much of a "legal obligation" any of it is, especially for the USA.
- eli 13y ago
  Doesn't any attempt to capture an international fugitive necessarily infringe that person's right to seek asylum?
  - meepmorp 13y ago
    > Doesn't any attempt to capture an international fugitive necessarily infringe that person's right to seek asylum? Yes. This is what's wrong with this line of reasoning.
  - baddox 13y ago
    Based on my reading of the article, yes. It's important to note, however, that the article does not apply to "prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations." Presumably the definitions of those terms would be determined on a case-by-case basis by the International Court of Justice.
rosser 13y ago
...and is a fugitive from justice. Only in the narrowest, most legalistic sense of the term. In terms of what is just however, I think there's a lot of room for debate.
sneak 13y ago
> He _broke the law_ and is a fugitive from justice. This, while seeming important, is basically irrelevant as long as the US is demonstrating their willingness to torture accused people prior to trial for crimes such as these. He could have done something 10x worse and it still wouldn't matter. Nobody should ever be subjected to torture - even if convicted. They're torturing people for years before trials even start, if they start at all. He cannot anticipate anything resembling justice in the US. It's a red herring.
- kpommerenke 13y ago
  Snowden hasn't been tortured, and will certainly not be tortured when he gets back to the US.
  - kasey_junk 13y ago
    Bradley Manning was submitted to sleep deprivation & extreme isolation, both of which are widely regarded as torture by civilized people. Given that it seems reasonable for Snowden to believe he will be tortured on his return to the US and unreasonable for someone to say that he certainly won't be tortured.
    - krapp 13y ago
      Not everyone who is convicted of a crime by the government is tortured and not every trial is a mocking pretense. Maybe, just maybe, Edward Snowden is speaking through the filter of his own prejudices and biases, which may not necessarily 100% reflect reality.
      - jellicle 13y ago
        Maybe we should put it this way: the last person that the U.S.A. got its hands on that caused a similar amount of embarrassment to the U.S. government was brutally tortured. Snowden would prefer not to find out if that trend is going to continue.

lhnz 13y ago

Yes, he did break the law but it is absurd for you to use the word 'justice'. Justice: The quality of being fair and reasonable. He's not running away from something which is 'fair or reasonable', his human rights are in grave danger. He is a fugitive from injustice. I do not care whether he is a hero or not, but I do care about whether it was a right thing to do and whether he is treated as a human should be treated. These are principles worth upholding.

mpyne 13y ago
> He's not running away from something which is 'fair or reasonable', his human rights are in grave danger. How so? I mean this sincerely. What do you think will happen to him when he is arrested? There's no brig to throw him in, as he's a civilian. Snowden was very concerned about the lack of judicial oversight in what he saw with PRISM, so why would he assume that very same judicial system would mark him for special treatment when people like Hanssen, the Walker gang, and even Aaron Hernandez have not received such? If Snowden really felt beforehand that the civilian justice system was so completely inequitable it seems weird that he'd have been so insistent on its involvement elsewhere.
- lhnz 13y ago
  >> If Snowden really felt beforehand that the civilian justice system was so completely inequitable it seems weird that he'd have been so insistent on its involvement elsewhere. The 'justice' system fulfils what power requires from it. It will be as inequitable with a trial as it has been with this whole fiasco.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Then there was never a reason to involve the 'justice' system in surveillance measures at all, was there?
    - lhnz 13y ago
      Agreed. But I think underlying this is the thought that it would be good if there was an equitable justice system as opposed to an inequitable one.
      - mpyne 13y ago
        Yes, that would be good. I suppose it is a pity there is no middle ground between those two possibilities.
    - e3pi 13y ago
      >Then there was never a reason to involve the 'justice' system in surveillance measures at all, was there? "...But Obama’s Justice Department, like Bush’s, has not been above an opportunistic (and occasionally downright Procrustean) reading of particular statutes to permit whatever it is that the White House wants to do." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5961518 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5961518
- gaadd33 13y ago
  They could just hold him for years without a trial like what happened with Kevin Mitnick.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Well... that was bad, but it was bad for different reasons. Mitnick himself waived his right to a speedy trial. The government swamped him and his court in so much shit that he'd have a difficult time preparing a proper defense otherwise. The flipside for Snowden is that at least it will count as time served so if he gets sentenced to more than 2 years it might actually be beneficial as I'd imagine you get to meet with your lawyers more often while prepping for trial.
  - zanny 13y ago
    This, the US gov't has plenty of backdoors and sleazy dealings to circumvent a speedy trial by ones peers. It is why most criminal sentences aren't heard by juries, because the system is rigged and intentionally bullies the accused into taking plea bargains.
embolism 13y ago
I am genuinely curious to know if there is a county whose judicial system could be used as a good example.

jlgreco 13y ago

If "being a hero" requires risk (which I disagree with), then whenever it is possible to take the actions of a hero without the associated risk then it in fact becomes preferred that people not be heroes. Nobody has an obligation to become a martyr; there is no obligation to seek out risk, or to not evade it. To your edit: See Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

throwaway9848 13y ago
To the UN document (which has dubious jurisdiction, but I'll play along): "Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution" Which is followed by: "This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations" Which negates your point, because of this: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20news/US-news-PDFs/Snowden-Complaint.pdf http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20new... I don't understand what your point is about the nature of heroism.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  > dubious jurisdiction The Universal Declaration of Human Rights has no jurisdiction, it is not a law... If you are confusing it for one, then I think you have some reading to do. > http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20new.. http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20new.... Most political charges are dressed up as non-political. Does this surprise you? > I don't understand what your point is about the nature of heroism If your intent for bringing up heroism was not to imply that he should be "brought to justice", "turn himself in", "should not have run", or any variation of those, then consider my point about the nature of heroism to be an aside.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    > Most political charges are dressed up as non-political. Does this surprise you? Snowden's own father says he broke the law... but he wasn't a traitor in doing so. But I don't believe the UDHR talks about treason in their exception request.

baddox 13y ago

> Is that a legal obligation for all nations to _grant_ asylum to seekers, regardless of circumstances? No, it's a legal obligation to not infringe on the right of people to seek and enjoy asylum. Of course, it's the UN, so it's debatable how much of a "legal obligation" any of it is, especially for the USA.

eli 13y ago
Doesn't any attempt to capture an international fugitive necessarily infringe that person's right to seek asylum?
- meepmorp 13y ago
  > Doesn't any attempt to capture an international fugitive necessarily infringe that person's right to seek asylum? Yes. This is what's wrong with this line of reasoning.
- baddox 13y ago
  Based on my reading of the article, yes. It's important to note, however, that the article does not apply to "prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations." Presumably the definitions of those terms would be determined on a case-by-case basis by the International Court of Justice.

rosser 13y ago

...and is a fugitive from justice. Only in the narrowest, most legalistic sense of the term. In terms of what is just however, I think there's a lot of room for debate.

sneak 13y ago

> He _broke the law_ and is a fugitive from justice. This, while seeming important, is basically irrelevant as long as the US is demonstrating their willingness to torture accused people prior to trial for crimes such as these. He could have done something 10x worse and it still wouldn't matter. Nobody should ever be subjected to torture - even if convicted. They're torturing people for years before trials even start, if they start at all. He cannot anticipate anything resembling justice in the US. It's a red herring.

kpommerenke 13y ago
Snowden hasn't been tortured, and will certainly not be tortured when he gets back to the US.
- kasey_junk 13y ago
  Bradley Manning was submitted to sleep deprivation & extreme isolation, both of which are widely regarded as torture by civilized people. Given that it seems reasonable for Snowden to believe he will be tortured on his return to the US and unreasonable for someone to say that he certainly won't be tortured.
  - krapp 13y ago
    Not everyone who is convicted of a crime by the government is tortured and not every trial is a mocking pretense. Maybe, just maybe, Edward Snowden is speaking through the filter of his own prejudices and biases, which may not necessarily 100% reflect reality.
    - jellicle 13y ago
      Maybe we should put it this way: the last person that the U.S.A. got its hands on that caused a similar amount of embarrassment to the U.S. government was brutally tortured. Snowden would prefer not to find out if that trend is going to continue.