5 ms·

No, it's a head transplant. The head is part of the body. There is nothing metaphysical about a head. That's not where the philosophical language problems come

by bennyg 13y ago

No, it's a head transplant. The head is part of the body. There is nothing metaphysical about a head. That's not where the philosophical language problems come into play. The problems start when you talk about WHO the combinated person is.

danso 13y ago
Right...but the head is sometimes considered to be the center of someone's identity...case in point, brain death is often considered to be the standard of actual death. So if I find my head atop a different body...why shouldn't I label it as a body transplant? For those currently in cryogenic cranial freeze and who successfully are revived, would we not think of them as having new bodies, rather than the bodies having new heads?
- benatkin 13y ago
  Because "head transplant" is more fun to say. It's a self-deprecating joke to say "I need a head transplant". https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=%22I%20need%20a%20head%20transplant%22&src=typd https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=%22I%20need%20a%20head... It probably is incorrect, though, as a head transplant would mean that the head would be assuming the identity of the person carrying the body. While amusing it seems a lot to ask of the person with the head. Edit: even more people say "I need a brain transplant" https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=%22I%20need%20a%20brain%20transplant%22&src=typd https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=%22I%20need%20a%20brai...
nsxwolf 13y ago
If you were diagnosed with brain cancer, would you be pleased if you were offered a head transplant as a cure? No, you would not. Now if you had terminal cancer spread all over your body, would you accept a body transplant as a treatment option? It's a body transplant.
- akiselev 13y ago
  So you install a motherboard into a processor?
  - nsxwolf 13y ago
    If you feel your identity is as trivial and interchangeable as a computer's CPU, be my guest. I don't think you'll get the result you're looking for.
    - akiselev 13y ago
      You were arguing semantics, so was I. We do now know nearly enough about the brain to understand what "identity" is for us to speculate on whether a brain transplant would mean losing part of it, let alone actually perform a successful brain transplant in a human.
      - Sharlin 13y ago
        http://lesswrong.com/lw/kj/no_one_knows_what_science_doesnt_know/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/kj/no_one_knows_what_science_doesnt_... I'm rather certain that we know enough about brains to confindently say that all the higher functions of the central nervous system quite definitely reside in the brain, and specifically in the neocortex, not in the spinal cord or anywhere else.
        akiselev 13y ago
        There is a reason I said "identity" with the quotes, not higher functions. I have no doubt a well funded enough project can transplant a human brain into a different body and "weld" the nervous systems to restore basic cognitive and motor functions in the next few decades. What I mean by identity is an understanding of how "you" as a person are formed by phenomena emerging from very complex biological system. For example, I have a very bad feeling in my stomach when I do something I am ashamed of. I'm 99% certain that the neurons in my stomach have little to do with this feeling and it's "all in my head," but we really know for certain how our brain chemistry, our mood, our reactions are shaped by the chemical and hormonal functions of the rest of the body? You are, afterall, combining two separate genetic lines, is there no possibility for a neural rejection like graft-versus-host?
- bennyg 13y ago
  What I'm saying is that the head is an element in the set of parts called the body. The head is a body part. It isn't separate from the body, it is intertwined with it. Identity isn't totally centered in the brain (at least from what we can tell so far).
pavel_lishin 13y ago
I am my brain. That is most of what I am. If my brain gets seated onto a new body, you could say that my head was transplanted onto the new body, but it would be inaccurate to say that I received a head transplant.
- sp332 13y ago
  That's a bold assumption. You don't really know how much of your personality is based on reactions from your gut (spleen, heart, etc).
  - jessriedel 13y ago
    People have had just about all major organs south of the brain replaced individually by either machines or biological transplants. (Can anyone identify one that hasn't?) And I don't think anyone's ever seriously claimed that such people have had their identity changed in any meaningful sense. Unless you have a very complicated hypothesis about multiple organs in the abdomen effecting personality in a weird redundant way--where losing one of them doesn't change your identity but loosing many does--the evidence is overwhelming that everything we think of as "identity" is in the brain.
    - sp332 13y ago
      Of course various hormones change personality traits, and many of those are governed or heeded below the neck. Trivially, testosterone.
    - Someone 13y ago
      I think you underestimate the effect body changes can have on one's identity. "identity change due to trauma" will find you plenty to think about, for example http://www.centerforpos.org/Positive/POS-Research/Papers/Papers/Chapter%203.pdf http://www.centerforpos.org/Positive/POS-Research/Papers/Pap... "Matthew, a professional ‘cellist, damaged two tendons in his shoulder. […] he felt “a kind of total emptiness and utter exhaustion that really was literally sapping my will to live.” At the centre of this emptiness lay the question, “Who am I now?"" http://biomed.brown.edu/Courses/BI108/BI108_2003_Groups/Hand_Transplantation/ethics.html http://biomed.brown.edu/Courses/BI108/BI108_2003_Groups/Hand...: "In addition, assessments should be made of their body-image adaptation after amputation, impact of amputation on their identity and relationships" http://www.athealth.com/consumer/disorders/traumaeffects.html http://www.athealth.com/consumer/disorders/traumaeffects.htm...: "Survivors may have problems with identity when PTSD symptoms change important aspects of a person's life such as relationships or whether the person can do his or her work well." http://www.nbmtlink.org/resources_support/spg/spg_appearance.htm http://www.nbmtlink.org/resources_support/spg/spg_appearance...: "Every time I look in the mirror, I see someone different than the person I knew during my life before transplant." Is all of that in the brain? In some sense: yes, but bodily changes do change how you think about yourself, and that is one definition/aspect of 'personality' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity#Personal_conception_and_expression http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity#Personal_conception_an...)
jlgreco 13y ago
If calling it a body transplant bothers you because you don't think the definition of body works with that, then call it a "torso and limb transplant" or something. "head transplant" is absurd.
Dylan16807 13y ago
What problems? If it's Frank's head then after the operation you still have Frank. Worry about identity when someone invents a partial brain transplant or something crazy like that.
- MarcParadise 13y ago
  That depends. If you're grafting Frank's head onto Mr Stein's body, you get... Well. Moving right along.
- VladRussian2 13y ago
  >If it's Frank's head then after the operation you still have Frank. according to police database of fingerprints - not, according to DNA - depends of where it is sampled from and even after that - what would be a DNA say in saliva, blood?
  - Dylan16807 13y ago
    Can't you already screw up DNA testing with a marrow transplant? And fingerprints can change too.

by bennyg 13y ago

danso 13y ago

Right...but the head is sometimes considered to be the center of someone's identity...case in point, brain death is often considered to be the standard of actual death. So if I find my head atop a different body...why shouldn't I label it as a body transplant? For those currently in cryogenic cranial freeze and who successfully are revived, would we not think of them as having new bodies, rather than the bodies having new heads?

benatkin 13y ago
Because "head transplant" is more fun to say. It's a self-deprecating joke to say "I need a head transplant". https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=%22I%20need%20a%20head%20transplant%22&src=typd https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=%22I%20need%20a%20head... It probably is incorrect, though, as a head transplant would mean that the head would be assuming the identity of the person carrying the body. While amusing it seems a lot to ask of the person with the head. Edit: even more people say "I need a brain transplant" https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=%22I%20need%20a%20brain%20transplant%22&src=typd https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=%22I%20need%20a%20brai...

nsxwolf 13y ago

If you were diagnosed with brain cancer, would you be pleased if you were offered a head transplant as a cure? No, you would not. Now if you had terminal cancer spread all over your body, would you accept a body transplant as a treatment option? It's a body transplant.

akiselev 13y ago
So you install a motherboard into a processor?
- nsxwolf 13y ago
  If you feel your identity is as trivial and interchangeable as a computer's CPU, be my guest. I don't think you'll get the result you're looking for.
  - akiselev 13y ago
    You were arguing semantics, so was I. We do now know nearly enough about the brain to understand what "identity" is for us to speculate on whether a brain transplant would mean losing part of it, let alone actually perform a successful brain transplant in a human.
    - Sharlin 13y ago
      http://lesswrong.com/lw/kj/no_one_knows_what_science_doesnt_know/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/kj/no_one_knows_what_science_doesnt_... I'm rather certain that we know enough about brains to confindently say that all the higher functions of the central nervous system quite definitely reside in the brain, and specifically in the neocortex, not in the spinal cord or anywhere else.
      - akiselev 13y ago
        There is a reason I said "identity" with the quotes, not higher functions. I have no doubt a well funded enough project can transplant a human brain into a different body and "weld" the nervous systems to restore basic cognitive and motor functions in the next few decades. What I mean by identity is an understanding of how "you" as a person are formed by phenomena emerging from very complex biological system. For example, I have a very bad feeling in my stomach when I do something I am ashamed of. I'm 99% certain that the neurons in my stomach have little to do with this feeling and it's "all in my head," but we really know for certain how our brain chemistry, our mood, our reactions are shaped by the chemical and hormonal functions of the rest of the body? You are, afterall, combining two separate genetic lines, is there no possibility for a neural rejection like graft-versus-host?
bennyg 13y ago
What I'm saying is that the head is an element in the set of parts called the body. The head is a body part. It isn't separate from the body, it is intertwined with it. Identity isn't totally centered in the brain (at least from what we can tell so far).

pavel_lishin 13y ago

I am my brain. That is most of what I am. If my brain gets seated onto a new body, you could say that my head was transplanted onto the new body, but it would be inaccurate to say that I received a head transplant.

sp332 13y ago
That's a bold assumption. You don't really know how much of your personality is based on reactions from your gut (spleen, heart, etc).
- jessriedel 13y ago
  People have had just about all major organs south of the brain replaced individually by either machines or biological transplants. (Can anyone identify one that hasn't?) And I don't think anyone's ever seriously claimed that such people have had their identity changed in any meaningful sense. Unless you have a very complicated hypothesis about multiple organs in the abdomen effecting personality in a weird redundant way--where losing one of them doesn't change your identity but loosing many does--the evidence is overwhelming that everything we think of as "identity" is in the brain.
  - sp332 13y ago
    Of course various hormones change personality traits, and many of those are governed or heeded below the neck. Trivially, testosterone.
  - Someone 13y ago
    I think you underestimate the effect body changes can have on one's identity. "identity change due to trauma" will find you plenty to think about, for example http://www.centerforpos.org/Positive/POS-Research/Papers/Papers/Chapter%203.pdf http://www.centerforpos.org/Positive/POS-Research/Papers/Pap... "Matthew, a professional ‘cellist, damaged two tendons in his shoulder. […] he felt “a kind of total emptiness and utter exhaustion that really was literally sapping my will to live.” At the centre of this emptiness lay the question, “Who am I now?"" http://biomed.brown.edu/Courses/BI108/BI108_2003_Groups/Hand_Transplantation/ethics.html http://biomed.brown.edu/Courses/BI108/BI108_2003_Groups/Hand...: "In addition, assessments should be made of their body-image adaptation after amputation, impact of amputation on their identity and relationships" http://www.athealth.com/consumer/disorders/traumaeffects.html http://www.athealth.com/consumer/disorders/traumaeffects.htm...: "Survivors may have problems with identity when PTSD symptoms change important aspects of a person's life such as relationships or whether the person can do his or her work well." http://www.nbmtlink.org/resources_support/spg/spg_appearance.htm http://www.nbmtlink.org/resources_support/spg/spg_appearance...: "Every time I look in the mirror, I see someone different than the person I knew during my life before transplant." Is all of that in the brain? In some sense: yes, but bodily changes do change how you think about yourself, and that is one definition/aspect of 'personality' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity#Personal_conception_and_expression http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity#Personal_conception_an...)

jlgreco 13y ago

If calling it a body transplant bothers you because you don't think the definition of body works with that, then call it a "torso and limb transplant" or something. "head transplant" is absurd.

Dylan16807 13y ago

What problems? If it's Frank's head then after the operation you still have Frank. Worry about identity when someone invents a partial brain transplant or something crazy like that.

MarcParadise 13y ago
That depends. If you're grafting Frank's head onto Mr Stein's body, you get... Well. Moving right along.
VladRussian2 13y ago
>If it's Frank's head then after the operation you still have Frank. according to police database of fingerprints - not, according to DNA - depends of where it is sampled from and even after that - what would be a DNA say in saliva, blood?
- Dylan16807 13y ago
  Can't you already screw up DNA testing with a marrow transplant? And fingerprints can change too.