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This view held by those in power that "idealists are weak" is an idea ripe for disruption. The view was stated in a post yesterday "Freedom: The Big American L

by espeed 13y ago

This view held by those in power that "idealists are weak" is an idea ripe for disruption. The view was stated in a post yesterday "Freedom: The Big American Lie" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5962459 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5962459): To snub and even to wound your most zealous supporters, as Obama has done, is regarded as a mark of maturity in Washington. This is not because snubbing or wounding them is a brave thing to do, but exactly the opposite: Because the righteous attitude of the idealist is repugnant to the men of power, who know that idealists are, in fact, men of weakness, entitled to neither courtesy nor respect. Maybe the culture of power could be disrupted if a world dominated by bankers and takers was usurped by these makers whom learned to thrive in a culture of openness and sharing. Maybe this change in culture could usher in a New Camelot. Idealistic? -- yes. Possible? -- absolutely, if leading founders make solving this problem their next challenge. The US was founded on a set of ideals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream). This country was started by founders. It can be restored by founders.

rayiner 13y ago
Idealists are weak in a democracy because their devotion to ideological purity makes them unable to form the coalitions, which are necessary to have any political impact in a majoritarian system. Its silly to claim that "makers" are idealists by nature. Most of the "makers" I know are engineers, and if anything engineering as a profession has a distinctly conservative, "don't rock the boat" mentality. E.g. I wouldn't call any of the civil engineers I know high-minded idealists, but rather intensely pragmatic and carefully conservative (which is kind of what you want in your bridge-builders...). The "American Dream" bears little resemblance to the founding principles of the republic. Much of what he perceive as the "American Dream" is populist rhetoric added to the American narrative by Andrew Jackson and FDR, along with nationalist rhetoric added during the Cold War. The country was founded by lawyers, another profession not exactly known for its idealism. The American "revolution" was a deeply conservative one, mostly seeking a return to the status quo as it was before the British, drained by wars with France, started hitting up the colonies for money. Indeed, much of the American polity viewed the radicalism of the French Revolution with skepticism and distaste (at one point Thomas Paine was arrested in France and scheduled to be executed).
- espeed 13y ago
  First you said... The whole Lessig/Palantir issue is so illustrative of the tech community's bizarre insistence on ideological purity on political issues, and consequently illustrative of why tech as an industry has so little political influence despite having money and people. Now you say... Its silly to claim that "makers" are idealists by nature. BTW, in case my usage of "makers" needs clarification, I am using "makers" in the PG sense of the word (http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html) where "makers" == hackers, painters, founders. Successful founders find ways to solve problems. Elon Musk founded Tesla, SolarCity, and SpaceX on a set of ideals, i.e "principles that one actively pursues as a goal," and he has found a way to achieve these ideals that most thought were "impossible." If Elon Musk and enough other successful founders decided to run for office, the world would be a different place.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    But certainly you can make things without necessarily having to be an idealist, even in pg's sense of the term. Sometimes people just want to build, or paint, or lead, or tinker with software, or any of a million other things that might make someone a maker. But none of that requires some kind of pure ideology, and in fact the successful maker with the pure ideology must almost be the exception to the rule. People like Dr. Stallman, perhaps. But certainly not all "makers".
  - rayiner 13y ago
    Your confusion is predicated on your conflating "the tech community" with "makers." The tech community definitely has an idealistic streak. But it a small subset of the larger engineering world, which really does not. To the extent that you can ascribe an ideology to a profession, all those chemical engineers and civil engineers are not "hackers" or "painters" but rather "pyramid builders."
    - espeed 13y ago
      Your confusion is predicated on your glossing over that I said these makers, in direct reference to your statement about "the tech community" being idealists. And in the context of the tech community (as you framed it), the makers who are hackers/founders (as I framed it) are an even smaller subset of the tech community and thus the engineering community at large.

by espeed 13y ago

rayiner 13y ago

Idealists are weak in a democracy because their devotion to ideological purity makes them unable to form the coalitions, which are necessary to have any political impact in a majoritarian system. Its silly to claim that "makers" are idealists by nature. Most of the "makers" I know are engineers, and if anything engineering as a profession has a distinctly conservative, "don't rock the boat" mentality. E.g. I wouldn't call any of the civil engineers I know high-minded idealists, but rather intensely pragmatic and carefully conservative (which is kind of what you want in your bridge-builders...). The "American Dream" bears little resemblance to the founding principles of the republic. Much of what he perceive as the "American Dream" is populist rhetoric added to the American narrative by Andrew Jackson and FDR, along with nationalist rhetoric added during the Cold War. The country was founded by lawyers, another profession not exactly known for its idealism. The American "revolution" was a deeply conservative one, mostly seeking a return to the status quo as it was before the British, drained by wars with France, started hitting up the colonies for money. Indeed, much of the American polity viewed the radicalism of the French Revolution with skepticism and distaste (at one point Thomas Paine was arrested in France and scheduled to be executed).

espeed 13y ago
First you said... The whole Lessig/Palantir issue is so illustrative of the tech community's bizarre insistence on ideological purity on political issues, and consequently illustrative of why tech as an industry has so little political influence despite having money and people. Now you say... Its silly to claim that "makers" are idealists by nature. BTW, in case my usage of "makers" needs clarification, I am using "makers" in the PG sense of the word (http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html) where "makers" == hackers, painters, founders. Successful founders find ways to solve problems. Elon Musk founded Tesla, SolarCity, and SpaceX on a set of ideals, i.e "principles that one actively pursues as a goal," and he has found a way to achieve these ideals that most thought were "impossible." If Elon Musk and enough other successful founders decided to run for office, the world would be a different place.
- mpyne 13y ago
  But certainly you can make things without necessarily having to be an idealist, even in pg's sense of the term. Sometimes people just want to build, or paint, or lead, or tinker with software, or any of a million other things that might make someone a maker. But none of that requires some kind of pure ideology, and in fact the successful maker with the pure ideology must almost be the exception to the rule. People like Dr. Stallman, perhaps. But certainly not all "makers".
- rayiner 13y ago
  Your confusion is predicated on your conflating "the tech community" with "makers." The tech community definitely has an idealistic streak. But it a small subset of the larger engineering world, which really does not. To the extent that you can ascribe an ideology to a profession, all those chemical engineers and civil engineers are not "hackers" or "painters" but rather "pyramid builders."
  - espeed 13y ago
    Your confusion is predicated on your glossing over that I said these makers, in direct reference to your statement about "the tech community" being idealists. And in the context of the tech community (as you framed it), the makers who are hackers/founders (as I framed it) are an even smaller subset of the tech community and thus the engineering community at large.