8 ms·

Two Senators Say the NSA Is Still Feeding Us False Information

443 points by nealabq 13y ago

jdmitch 13y ago
I think the subtitle gets to the heart of the issue: "How can a democratic republic function when the bureaucrats are constantly misleading the people?" It feels more and more like a deceptive charade that the US is actually a democratic republic. It is increasingly clear that in a number of significant areas the shady bureaucracy is taking action without the public's consent.
- nwh 13y ago
  From an outsiders view, that's my interpretation too. Have to wonder just how many people are under gag orders for various secret things. An uncharitable view would be that the democracy bit is just to keep the public from realising they have no control. I often wonder how the US will be seen in history books, and it's quickly slipping further into the evil section.
  - redblacktree 13y ago
    > I often wonder how the US will be seen in history books, and it's quickly slipping further into the evil section. That will depend upon who wins.
- quadhome 13y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister#Inspirations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister#Inspirations Or, if you dislike comedic form, the Crossman Diaries are insightful in the working of the civil service: http://www.amazon.com/s/?&field-keywords=Richard+Crossman+diaries http://www.amazon.com/s/?&field-keywords=Richard+Crossman+di... We separate "politics" from our bureaucracy. It's quite difficult to, say, fire a civil servant. Don't get me wrong, I think the spoils system was worse. (Hmm, why do I think that...) But the independence of the civil service is intentional. Elected officials and not very effective oversight.
- clarkmoody 13y ago
  The government certainly seems out of control with regard to secrecy & privacy, but these just hint at the larger issue at hand: the government regulatory arm is out of control in all of its duties and functions. Many regulatory agencies can pass new rule changes that have widespread impact on productivity and business. These rules are not subject to electoral review, since these are non-elected officials making decisions. It's time we reign in government on all levels, to increase the freedoms of individuals, businesses, and even the states.
- raintrees 13y ago
  Doesn't it seem like the United States has gotten too big for our Democracy to function correctly anymore? Maybe it is time to break it up... Or at least move authority back down to the smallest level: Solve problems in your local township. If can not resolve: Go up to County level for resolution. If can not resolve: Go up to Sate level for resolution. If can not resolve: iterate as necessary. (Edited for better formatting).
  - psaintla 13y ago
    So you want to make it even easier than it already is for corporations to control govt?
    - raintrees 13y ago
      About that: Currently (until I get enough evidence/data to change my opinion) I subscribe to an amalgamation of John Perkins' and Jerry Mander's point of view on Corporations: They should not be bigger than their locality, also expressed as smaller is better. As soon as their operations can no longer be felt in the same geographical area as any other part of said corporation, they have gotten too big and need to be broken back up again. When corporations were smaller, it seemed there was better control and oversight. If they fouled their nests, it was eventually (preferably rapidly, but not always the case) obvious in the same locality and could be subjected to local response/censure, until wrongs were made right or they were closed. Overall, more localized government would seem to also provide for better "vote with your feet:" If one does not like the local consensus, one may move to another locality, possibly not that far away from the first, where the environs are more to one's liking. I am purposely using subjective language such as "seems" since I know I must not be as smart as others in these arenas. But so far, the ideas above have my support/backing/agreement. fwiw.
      - krapp 13y ago
        I might support this thinking ... except that we would be the only country in the world doing it. Wouldn't we essentially be rolling back the entire industrial revolution? What happens to manufacturing, commerce and IT when everything is the size of a hamlet? Would there be no more national banks? Would be go back to having local banks print their own currency?
adventured 13y ago
Senator Wyden has been remarkable in how far he has been willing to legally stick his neck out while so many other politicians either quietly cower in fear or hop on the mass surveillance bus. He'll be getting both my public support and campaign contributions for as long as he's in office.
- akama 13y ago
  Senator Wyden and some others have been doing a fabulous job during this issue and over their terms. My only thought or concern is if they will still keep their senate seat during the next election. Compared to some things the NSA is doing, rigging elections seems to be simple.
  - nknighthb 13y ago
    Wyden is effectively invulnerable in Oregon. A rigged election would not go popularly unnoticed.
    - bediger4000 13y ago
      Right, but what about Mark Udall in Colorado? Udall is the 2nd Senator in the title of The Article. Just google "jane harman alberto gonzalez" for a few informative articles.
    - akama 13y ago
      It is not just Wyden, there are other senators that are not as secure in their seats. We should just keep this in mind next election cycle.
- louthy 13y ago
  As a non-US citizen, I'd like to support him too. Although I suspect that would be seen by the NSA as support from 'rogue foreign interests', which would be used as a stick to beat him with.
- logn 13y ago
  Wyden probably has 'nothing to hide' then. That's the chilling/scary part of all this. Soon, anyone who's anyone but a perfectly boring and average Joe Normal will have no desire to speak out against the gov't.
logn 13y ago
Referenced in the article is an NSA PDF. See this instead: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xiyLnPkueBgJ:www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/press_releases/section_702_protections.pdf http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xiyLnPk... The actual PDF can't be requested at the moment. http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/press_releases/section_702_protections.pdf http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/press_releases/section... Internal Server Error - Read The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.
- nathas 13y ago
  And now an error notice: "It seems you have experienced an error." I guess they took it down. It responds with a 404 according to Fiddler. Edit: Here's a Pastebin'd version of the text in case the Google cached version expires: http://pastebin.com/5d7rHmYe http://pastebin.com/5d7rHmYe
  - logn 13y ago
    Thanks for that edit. I have a feeling this was a deliberate removal of that doc. And actually their error message looks like it was written by a lawyer, "it seems you have experienced an error"... as in, maybe it wasn't an 'error', but appears to be one.
lifeisstillgood 13y ago
Anyone have the link to the 15 talking points mentioned.
- LoganCale 13y ago
  Ron Wyden's Senate page has the full text of their letter as well as the NSA "fact" sheet. http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/blog/post/wyden-and-udall-to-general-alexander-nsa-must-correct-inaccurate-statement-in-fact-sheet http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/blog/post/wyden-and-udall-t...
- Intermernet 13y ago
  Second Paragraph. "15 talking points": http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/press_releases/section_702_protections.pdf http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/press_releases/section...
- sailfast 13y ago
  I was unable to find them and it doesn't appear there's a press release with that file on the NSA's public site. If there was a working link it appears to have been changed or removed.
  - pyre 13y ago
    Posted elsewhere: http://pastebin.com/5d7rHmYe http://pastebin.com/5d7rHmYe
DanielBMarkham 13y ago
It seems like the root of the problem here is using intelligence sources to target all civilians. As the senators point out, there's no way the NSA is going to automatically be able to tell from an email address or random internet packet the citizenship status of the person sending it. This should have been pointed out and addressed years ago, but instead they deliberately lied to Congress and then forbade Congress from coming clean with the public. What a mess. But there might be an even deeper problem, if you can believe it. I really don't see the purpose of electing people as representatives to serve on a committee if the committee is not given all of the relevant details, is sometimes lied to, and is forbidden from releasing any of the details to the public. I think the executive branch and specifically the president is taking on waaaaaay too much power here. In times of war, this might be understandable, but a democracy cannot endure a never-ending state of war. I hope that many are beginning to see this.
jdp23 13y ago
Marcy Wheeler suggests that the inaccuracy "has to do with the US person contact info collected along with targets. Even a comparison of the minimization order and the NSA’s claims make it clear US person communication can be swept up more easily than they claim." http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/06/24/wyden-udall-to-alexander-why-do-you-people-keep-lying/ http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/06/24/wyden-udall-to-alexande...
SeanDav 13y ago
What sort of coverage is this getting in the USA? I had a quick look at nytimes.com and didn't see anything. I realize that HN is kind of an echo chamber, especially about these events, so it would be nice to know as a non US resident how this is all panning out in major news centres.
- mpyne 13y ago
  Last thing I heard was that the Chicago Blackhawks won the Stanley Cup and that a red panda lost from the Washington DC zoo was found safe in DC...
- revscat 13y ago
  When it is discussed -- which is rare -- the American media is focusing on Snowden and his whereabouts. There is almost no discussion about what he has exposed. As it typically is, the media is aligned with the bureaucracy.
  - pvnick 13y ago
    This is infuriating. What can we do?
    - VladRussian2 13y ago
      Nothing.
      - pvnick 13y ago
        I don't accept that.
        VladRussian2 13y ago
        you're accepting it. Just by mere being present while your freedoms and rights are being raped, you're accepting it. Something along the lines of "estoppel" and "laches" concepts. What you're thinking while it happens - doesn't matter as you'll get used to it with time.
mpyne 13y ago
Am I the only one who thinks the headline is at least slightly misleading? I had assumed the NSA was caught in a lie, but that wasn't what either Senator said. They said instead (to paraphrase) that the NSA mentioned they must promptly destroy information inadvertently collection about American citizens, but the NSA failed to mention that they have no reasonable way to figure out whether a given file belongs to an American or not. While I agree that this is something important that the NSA should include for transparency's sake with any list of talking points covering minimization, it's not the same thing as "feeding us false information" either. This may help clues into what the scope of NSA copying of Internet traffic is; if they were only tapping into international/domestic transfer sites then they'd be able to fairly easily tag information as "probably not U.S." and discard the rest. Given the difficulty in determining what's what it would seem they are instead at the very least copying everything going to/from major cloud providers, which certainly sounds different in scope.
- peripitea 13y ago
  Unless I'm misunderstanding something, this seems worse than lying to me. The primary concern addressed by this point is: as an American citizens, will they store my information? The intellectually honest answer to that question is something along the lines of "yes, there's a very good chance we will", but they've worded this point to make it seem like the answer is "no". In doing so, they get away with lying while being able to claim they are not. On balance, this seems more likely to deceive the electorate than a straight-out lie would be; such a lie would be more likely to be called out and uncovered. I'm not even close to a lawyer, so again, I may be misunderstanding. But that's how I read it.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    > Unless I'm misunderstanding something, this seems worse than lying to me. Well, isn't it good that I pointed it out then! ;) There's no way to move forward on these types of discussions if we always talk past each other, words mean things and we should use them appropriately.
- Uhhrrr 13y ago
graycat 13y ago
It's called the 'mushroom treatment': Keep in the dark and feed BS.
rz2k 13y ago
I thought this New Yorker cartoon[1] about the all of the iceberg being above the surface was pretty apropos, and I'm not sure the licensors got the point when they gave it the keywords "global warming" and "sea ice"[2]. (Also, it's really difficult to permalink to New Yorker cartoons in a way that they get credit) [1] http://www.newyorker.com/images/2013/07/01/p465/130701_daily-cartoon-monday-2_p465.jpg http://www.newyorker.com/images/2013/07/01/p465/130701_daily... [2] http://cartoonbank.licensestream.com/LicenseStream/Store/contentView.aspx?id=ae125fc4-ec5a-41b9-b068-2042b8c8940c http://cartoonbank.licensestream.com/LicenseStream/Store/con...
wahsd 13y ago
Lying liars trained to lie, cheat, manipulate, steal, and deceive are lying, cheating, manipulating, stealing, and deceiving. I'm shocked! The enemy is within.
jmadsen 13y ago
I wonder if Senator Wyden or others like him have noticed the irony of learning first-hand how frustrating it is to deal with an entrenched bureaucracy that puts up obstacles to protect itself from outside interference, even when it is working against the well-being of the people it is supposed to be working FOR. Some might be excused for thinking I was describing the Congress...
ScottBurson 13y ago
The NSA fact sheet claims: "Any inadvertently acquired communication of or concerning a US person must be promptly destroyed if it is neither relevant to the authorized purpose nor evidence of a crime." Even if this were true -- and Wyden and Udall are saying it's not -- it should not be good enough. All communications obtained without a lawful warrant should be destroyed even if they are evidence of a crime, I submit, and I would even go farther to say that no information obtained by the NSA about US persons should ever be able to be used as evidence in a court of law. This is not because I want people to be able to commit crimes with impunity; it's because Federal criminal law is so far out of control that the government can find a charge to hang on anyone it doesn't like. Also, the NSA is an arm of the DoD; as such, its job is to keep the country safe from external attackers. If the kind of massive, invasive data collection we are reading about is necessary to do that job -- a point I am not conceding, but one that many people seem to believe -- at the very least we must make sure it is never used for any other purpose.

443 points by nealabq 13y ago

I think the subtitle gets to the heart of the issue: "How can a democratic republic function when the bureaucrats are constantly misleading the people?" It feels more and more like a deceptive charade that the US is actually a democratic republic. It is increasingly clear that in a number of significant areas the shady bureaucracy is taking action without the public's consent.

nwh 13y ago
From an outsiders view, that's my interpretation too. Have to wonder just how many people are under gag orders for various secret things. An uncharitable view would be that the democracy bit is just to keep the public from realising they have no control. I often wonder how the US will be seen in history books, and it's quickly slipping further into the evil section.
- redblacktree 13y ago
  > I often wonder how the US will be seen in history books, and it's quickly slipping further into the evil section. That will depend upon who wins.
quadhome 13y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister#Inspirations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister#Inspirations Or, if you dislike comedic form, the Crossman Diaries are insightful in the working of the civil service: http://www.amazon.com/s/?&field-keywords=Richard+Crossman+diaries http://www.amazon.com/s/?&field-keywords=Richard+Crossman+di... We separate "politics" from our bureaucracy. It's quite difficult to, say, fire a civil servant. Don't get me wrong, I think the spoils system was worse. (Hmm, why do I think that...) But the independence of the civil service is intentional. Elected officials and not very effective oversight.
clarkmoody 13y ago
The government certainly seems out of control with regard to secrecy & privacy, but these just hint at the larger issue at hand: the government regulatory arm is out of control in all of its duties and functions. Many regulatory agencies can pass new rule changes that have widespread impact on productivity and business. These rules are not subject to electoral review, since these are non-elected officials making decisions. It's time we reign in government on all levels, to increase the freedoms of individuals, businesses, and even the states.
raintrees 13y ago
Doesn't it seem like the United States has gotten too big for our Democracy to function correctly anymore? Maybe it is time to break it up... Or at least move authority back down to the smallest level: Solve problems in your local township. If can not resolve: Go up to County level for resolution. If can not resolve: Go up to Sate level for resolution. If can not resolve: iterate as necessary. (Edited for better formatting).
- psaintla 13y ago
  So you want to make it even easier than it already is for corporations to control govt?
  - raintrees 13y ago
    About that: Currently (until I get enough evidence/data to change my opinion) I subscribe to an amalgamation of John Perkins' and Jerry Mander's point of view on Corporations: They should not be bigger than their locality, also expressed as smaller is better. As soon as their operations can no longer be felt in the same geographical area as any other part of said corporation, they have gotten too big and need to be broken back up again. When corporations were smaller, it seemed there was better control and oversight. If they fouled their nests, it was eventually (preferably rapidly, but not always the case) obvious in the same locality and could be subjected to local response/censure, until wrongs were made right or they were closed. Overall, more localized government would seem to also provide for better "vote with your feet:" If one does not like the local consensus, one may move to another locality, possibly not that far away from the first, where the environs are more to one's liking. I am purposely using subjective language such as "seems" since I know I must not be as smart as others in these arenas. But so far, the ideas above have my support/backing/agreement. fwiw.
    - krapp 13y ago
      I might support this thinking ... except that we would be the only country in the world doing it. Wouldn't we essentially be rolling back the entire industrial revolution? What happens to manufacturing, commerce and IT when everything is the size of a hamlet? Would there be no more national banks? Would be go back to having local banks print their own currency?

adventured 13y ago

Senator Wyden has been remarkable in how far he has been willing to legally stick his neck out while so many other politicians either quietly cower in fear or hop on the mass surveillance bus. He'll be getting both my public support and campaign contributions for as long as he's in office.

akama 13y ago
Senator Wyden and some others have been doing a fabulous job during this issue and over their terms. My only thought or concern is if they will still keep their senate seat during the next election. Compared to some things the NSA is doing, rigging elections seems to be simple.
- nknighthb 13y ago
  Wyden is effectively invulnerable in Oregon. A rigged election would not go popularly unnoticed.
  - bediger4000 13y ago
    Right, but what about Mark Udall in Colorado? Udall is the 2nd Senator in the title of The Article. Just google "jane harman alberto gonzalez" for a few informative articles.
  - akama 13y ago
    It is not just Wyden, there are other senators that are not as secure in their seats. We should just keep this in mind next election cycle.
louthy 13y ago
As a non-US citizen, I'd like to support him too. Although I suspect that would be seen by the NSA as support from 'rogue foreign interests', which would be used as a stick to beat him with.
logn 13y ago
Wyden probably has 'nothing to hide' then. That's the chilling/scary part of all this. Soon, anyone who's anyone but a perfectly boring and average Joe Normal will have no desire to speak out against the gov't.

logn 13y ago

Referenced in the article is an NSA PDF. See this instead: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xiyLnPkueBgJ:www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/press_releases/section_702_protections.pdf http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xiyLnPk... The actual PDF can't be requested at the moment. http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/press_releases/section_702_protections.pdf http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/press_releases/section... Internal Server Error - Read The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.

nathas 13y ago
And now an error notice: "It seems you have experienced an error." I guess they took it down. It responds with a 404 according to Fiddler. Edit: Here's a Pastebin'd version of the text in case the Google cached version expires: http://pastebin.com/5d7rHmYe http://pastebin.com/5d7rHmYe
- logn 13y ago
  Thanks for that edit. I have a feeling this was a deliberate removal of that doc. And actually their error message looks like it was written by a lawyer, "it seems you have experienced an error"... as in, maybe it wasn't an 'error', but appears to be one.

lifeisstillgood 13y ago

Anyone have the link to the 15 talking points mentioned.

LoganCale 13y ago
Ron Wyden's Senate page has the full text of their letter as well as the NSA "fact" sheet. http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/blog/post/wyden-and-udall-to-general-alexander-nsa-must-correct-inaccurate-statement-in-fact-sheet http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/blog/post/wyden-and-udall-t...
Intermernet 13y ago
Second Paragraph. "15 talking points": http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/press_releases/section_702_protections.pdf http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/press_releases/section...
sailfast 13y ago
I was unable to find them and it doesn't appear there's a press release with that file on the NSA's public site. If there was a working link it appears to have been changed or removed.
- pyre 13y ago
  Posted elsewhere: http://pastebin.com/5d7rHmYe http://pastebin.com/5d7rHmYe

DanielBMarkham 13y ago

It seems like the root of the problem here is using intelligence sources to target all civilians. As the senators point out, there's no way the NSA is going to automatically be able to tell from an email address or random internet packet the citizenship status of the person sending it. This should have been pointed out and addressed years ago, but instead they deliberately lied to Congress and then forbade Congress from coming clean with the public. What a mess. But there might be an even deeper problem, if you can believe it. I really don't see the purpose of electing people as representatives to serve on a committee if the committee is not given all of the relevant details, is sometimes lied to, and is forbidden from releasing any of the details to the public. I think the executive branch and specifically the president is taking on waaaaaay too much power here. In times of war, this might be understandable, but a democracy cannot endure a never-ending state of war. I hope that many are beginning to see this.

jdp23 13y ago

Marcy Wheeler suggests that the inaccuracy "has to do with the US person contact info collected along with targets. Even a comparison of the minimization order and the NSA’s claims make it clear US person communication can be swept up more easily than they claim." http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/06/24/wyden-udall-to-alexander-why-do-you-people-keep-lying/ http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/06/24/wyden-udall-to-alexande...

SeanDav 13y ago

What sort of coverage is this getting in the USA? I had a quick look at nytimes.com and didn't see anything. I realize that HN is kind of an echo chamber, especially about these events, so it would be nice to know as a non US resident how this is all panning out in major news centres.

mpyne 13y ago
Last thing I heard was that the Chicago Blackhawks won the Stanley Cup and that a red panda lost from the Washington DC zoo was found safe in DC...
revscat 13y ago
When it is discussed -- which is rare -- the American media is focusing on Snowden and his whereabouts. There is almost no discussion about what he has exposed. As it typically is, the media is aligned with the bureaucracy.
- pvnick 13y ago
  This is infuriating. What can we do?
  - VladRussian2 13y ago
    Nothing.
    - pvnick 13y ago
      I don't accept that.
      - VladRussian2 13y ago
        you're accepting it. Just by mere being present while your freedoms and rights are being raped, you're accepting it. Something along the lines of "estoppel" and "laches" concepts. What you're thinking while it happens - doesn't matter as you'll get used to it with time.

mpyne 13y ago

Am I the only one who thinks the headline is at least slightly misleading? I had assumed the NSA was caught in a lie, but that wasn't what either Senator said. They said instead (to paraphrase) that the NSA mentioned they must promptly destroy information inadvertently collection about American citizens, but the NSA failed to mention that they have no reasonable way to figure out whether a given file belongs to an American or not. While I agree that this is something important that the NSA should include for transparency's sake with any list of talking points covering minimization, it's not the same thing as "feeding us false information" either. This may help clues into what the scope of NSA copying of Internet traffic is; if they were only tapping into international/domestic transfer sites then they'd be able to fairly easily tag information as "probably not U.S." and discard the rest. Given the difficulty in determining what's what it would seem they are instead at the very least copying everything going to/from major cloud providers, which certainly sounds different in scope.

peripitea 13y ago
Unless I'm misunderstanding something, this seems worse than lying to me. The primary concern addressed by this point is: as an American citizens, will they store my information? The intellectually honest answer to that question is something along the lines of "yes, there's a very good chance we will", but they've worded this point to make it seem like the answer is "no". In doing so, they get away with lying while being able to claim they are not. On balance, this seems more likely to deceive the electorate than a straight-out lie would be; such a lie would be more likely to be called out and uncovered. I'm not even close to a lawyer, so again, I may be misunderstanding. But that's how I read it.
- mpyne 13y ago
  > Unless I'm misunderstanding something, this seems worse than lying to me. Well, isn't it good that I pointed it out then! ;) There's no way to move forward on these types of discussions if we always talk past each other, words mean things and we should use them appropriately.
Uhhrrr 13y ago

graycat 13y ago

It's called the 'mushroom treatment': Keep in the dark and feed BS.

rz2k 13y ago

I thought this New Yorker cartoon[1] about the all of the iceberg being above the surface was pretty apropos, and I'm not sure the licensors got the point when they gave it the keywords "global warming" and "sea ice"[2]. (Also, it's really difficult to permalink to New Yorker cartoons in a way that they get credit) [1] http://www.newyorker.com/images/2013/07/01/p465/130701_daily-cartoon-monday-2_p465.jpg http://www.newyorker.com/images/2013/07/01/p465/130701_daily... [2] http://cartoonbank.licensestream.com/LicenseStream/Store/contentView.aspx?id=ae125fc4-ec5a-41b9-b068-2042b8c8940c http://cartoonbank.licensestream.com/LicenseStream/Store/con...

wahsd 13y ago

Lying liars trained to lie, cheat, manipulate, steal, and deceive are lying, cheating, manipulating, stealing, and deceiving. I'm shocked! The enemy is within.

jmadsen 13y ago

I wonder if Senator Wyden or others like him have noticed the irony of learning first-hand how frustrating it is to deal with an entrenched bureaucracy that puts up obstacles to protect itself from outside interference, even when it is working against the well-being of the people it is supposed to be working FOR. Some might be excused for thinking I was describing the Congress...

ScottBurson 13y ago

The NSA fact sheet claims: "Any inadvertently acquired communication of or concerning a US person must be promptly destroyed if it is neither relevant to the authorized purpose nor evidence of a crime." Even if this were true -- and Wyden and Udall are saying it's not -- it should not be good enough. All communications obtained without a lawful warrant should be destroyed even if they are evidence of a crime, I submit, and I would even go farther to say that no information obtained by the NSA about US persons should ever be able to be used as evidence in a court of law. This is not because I want people to be able to commit crimes with impunity; it's because Federal criminal law is so far out of control that the government can find a charge to hang on anyone it doesn't like. Also, the NSA is an arm of the DoD; as such, its job is to keep the country safe from external attackers. If the kind of massive, invasive data collection we are reading about is necessary to do that job -- a point I am not conceding, but one that many people seem to believe -- at the very least we must make sure it is never used for any other purpose.